Pretty disappointed, this launches in December?

[Mayama]

 

 

Is the combat dog-piling fixed?

The bugginess looks fixed, but Rose played her party as Fighter tanks while every other party member spams from range, which tends to be the most effective way to play atm (which is pretty banal) - something needs to be done about that.

 

 

 

The stream really demonstrates exactly the issue with the Health system for me (I know I focus way too much on that!).

• At no point she had to use any resource really, the fights were cakewalks. She did, but really, no point and not needed.
• The fights were normally executed: Fighter grabs aggro, others stay at range and kill everything.
• No real "mistake" was made, just random fights against random creatures. Select all > auto attack, move on.

She fights 2 groups on easy difficulty and while EVERYONE is still maxed out, the dwarf is at 40% Health, forcing her to rest.

 

Then she moves in, fighting TWO easy random spiders. EVERYONE is maxed out and yet the dwarf, again, is at 50% health, forcing her to rest, AGAIN.

She fights another group, everyone is still maxed out and yet rests AGAIN because the dwarf took a beating!

 

 

As for stability, nothing shown had any issue in the beta version you guys have from what I've seen and nothing that has issues currently was shown to be fixed (again, from what I've seen).

 

On hard difficulty, one rest per area. Just because she played bad doesnt mean you need to play bad too.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Mayama

[Valeris]

• At no point she had to use any resource really, the fights were cakewalks. She did, but really, no point and not needed, just wanted to show some of the effects and colors, which is fine in streams like this.
• No real "mistake" were made, just random fights against random creatures. Select all > auto attack, move on.

 

4 total cakewalk fights, forcing her to rest 3 times...

 

 

So she just autoattacked, didn´t use any form of CC or "any ressource because no point and not needed" and yet you are suprised she is resting all over the place?

What a bias.

[khermann]

OP here, hi everybody.

 

I see a lot of talk in this thread (and elsewhere) about concerns and comparisons on gameplay design and features like the xp (reward/progression system) and inventory designs.

 

First, I'd like to simply say that when code is in BETA, it is DESIGN AND FEATURE COMPLETE. Beta is about attending to code that needs to be re-factored or fixed to achieve those design and feature imperatives, not to rip-and-replace core elements of the gameplay. 

 

Furthermore, we did not back this game because Obsidian said it was making BG3 or NWN3 or TOEE², they are making PoE. This isn't alpha testing, or pre-alpha, where design elements are still being fleshed out. While the incompleteness of the code exposes what may appear to be weaknesses in the eye of the beholder, what we have is an incomplete experience. Keep that in mind.

 

This doesn't invalidate anyone's opinions on these matters, and while the feedback from Obsidian is non-existent, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that such feedback is welcome, but at this point there is substantively little they can do about those things without rolling back the release process and pushing out the project release timeline, perhaps significantly. 

 

We backed the game because we trust that this group knows what we, the true, the pure, PC Gaming Master Race, want. We have expectations in-line with BG, NWN, IWD, etc etc, but what we are really saying is "We trust you, make the game you always wanted to" - there is risk in that, because there is freedom and they are going to place some bets and hope they hit.

 

For my part, I am wholly unconcerned with the design elements at this point. I want them to make the game they envisioned and I intend to play that with an open mind - trying to squeeze out bygone mechanics and take the game at face value. Yes feedback is good , but at this point it's all about implementation - stability, bugs, getting code-complete on modules and balancing - then polish to a mirror-shine. I do think it's fair to say how the inventory system presents has aspects that fall in to this category.

 

What I am concerned about is what I see as the backlog in these areas and a looming December-or-bust release date. I will be hugely disappointed if this game hatches half-baked yet "stable and relatively bug-free" - that is not a standard (this isn't COD or Battlefield) , that is a goddamn pre-requisite - you get NO points for that.

 

Pivotal concern in this light is in regard to the implementation of core elements like combat - areas that make the game exciting, rich, suspenseful and engaging - combat is it's own reward system in these types of games, and there will be no hiding from a let-down, as combat, in particular, has expectations and standards that none of us will be able to "turn off". If developers make concessions to the final product in these types of areas, the game will not be well received, so say I.

 

Having a rich story and pretty backdrops only go so far. When steel clashes with steel, sh*t gets real.

 

So, there is time. The game is what it is and right now it's so incomplete/bugged I don't think any fair assessment can be made on it's design and features as a whole. I just hope they can produce a quality product - regardless of the design.

 

Edit: a few words

Edited August 30, 2014 by khermann

[mutonizer]

On hard difficulty, one rest per area. Just because she played bad doesnt mean you need to play bad too.

So she just autoattacked, didn´t use any form of CC or "any ressource because no point and not needed" and yet you are suprised she is resting all over the place?

What a bias.

Play bad? She did nothing wrong! She did what most people would do and what most players WILL do.

Are you implying that if you don't range kit mobs all the time, ultra focus fire, while using CC to stun-lock enemies and whatnot you "play bad"?These were just a couple of completely random and inconsequential beetles and spiders!

 

Also, CC on what? She fights 1 or 2 random beetles then single random spiders! Also, she did use resources, mostly damaging spells and a lot of them. I'm saying she didn't have too, but she actually did, plenty of them and yet had to rest anyway.

 

Anyone abusing a system can do just that and abuse the system. But she played like most people would play, nothing stupid, nothing meta-gamey, just normal stuff.

[Elerond]

 

Also, CC on what? She fights 1 or 2 random beetles then single random spiders! Also, she did use resources, mostly damaging spells and a lot of them. I'm saying she didn't have too, but she actually did, plenty of them and yet had to rest anyway.

 

 

Actually she would most likely been absolute fine even if she hadn't rest even single time, but they wanted to show rest mechanic and make sure that they don't replicate their demo from gamescom.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Elerond

[Valeris]

Please, stop it.

It doens´t matter if it were "two beetles" or "Lord Hellfire of Doom" himself. You can not expect us to take this stream or your "argument" seriously when you complain about taking too much damage while, at the same time, no CC like stuns or knock downs is jused.

Even a medicore player from a pseudo-(MMO)RPG like World of Warcraft could succesfully tell you that "cc is king", and not damage. You don´t win most encounters by zerging them down, at least not in the beginning of the scaling-curve, and this is a good sign (btw, there is a reason many bosses in many rpg games outside of PoE are "immun"/or resistent to any or most forms of cc, because it would make the fight TOO EASY).

Seems the streamer is just too lazy for doing more than the minimal amount of micro management and has no clue that CC is superior to damage in most cases.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Valeris

[prodigydancer]

"cc is king"

Recent example: Divinity: Original Stun.

 

In traditional MMOs CC may be a necessary evil but balancing combat in a single-player game around heavy reliance on CC is bad design.

[PrimeJunta]

 

@Immortalis There's a big range between "borderline unplayable" (Arcanum) and "perfect" when it comes to systems that reward degenerate tactics.

 

If you don't reward "degenerate" tactics you need to make sure that you appropriately reward "legitimate" tactics. E.g. I saw a thread here somewhere stating that spellcasting is currently weak and not competitive. If true, guess what it can do to how (if at all) people will play wizards.

 

In other words insisting that players play the game the way it's "meant" to be played will do you no good if your perfect design vision is crippled by a buggy or incomplete implementation.

Absolutely. You can totally ruin the best design in the world with shoddy execution.

 

Don't forget though that the balancing process hasn't even properly begun yet.

 

I disagree about the spellcasting, by the way -- the only character I made it through the beta with was in fact a wizard, and playing him was, if you pardon the expression, a blast. The power level felt just about right to me, whereas IMO rogues were clearly underpowered and ciphers and chanters overpowered. One clear difference with DnD wizard though is that the point-damage spells did feel less punchy. I mostly used area-effect ones plus self-buffs, and they felt very much in line with the DnD equivalents.

 

(Other than Wall of Fire which was a bit of a "Win!" button ATM.)

[PrimeJunta]

BTW for those bellyaching about "December or bust" and the consequences thereof for polish, balance etc. -- I'd like to point out that Obsidian does patch games post-release too. Uh, from time to time.

[Valeris]

 

"cc is king"

 

 

In traditional MMOs CC may be a necessary evil but balancing combat in a single-player game around heavy reliance on CC is bad design.

 

This is a claim, and not an argument. Can you back it up?

If you do so, I have a few questions for you two consider:

"When" is balance required? In the early, mid or lategame?

Why should you have access to CC-abilities if you don´t need them to win encounters?

Leading to: Does this mean that only damage, buffing and outhealing is a legit way to win?

And finaly,why is a game balanced around CC iif CC alone doesn`t kill enemies? We have cooldowns to consider here, so DPS always is important. You can spamm autoattack, but you can not spam "stun for eternity".

[khermann]

Well, duh, but if all those patches do is polish a turd and tinker with gameplay design, what have we got? An extended retail alpha.

I am sick and tired of people hiding behind post-release patches to implement, eventually, the "final product".

Patch for bugs, fine, but when a piece of ssoftware hatches they are saying "this is the final product, please buy it" , not "this is what we have so far, please buy it, but we're not done, patches on the way!"

Edited August 30, 2014 by khermann

[prodigydancer]

This is a claim, and not an argument. Can you back it up?

Certainly. CC should be a situational tool to prevent enemy from healing, break a devastating AoE attack or make an emergency response (e.g. when you're ambushed and your healer is suddenly in a bad spot).

 

When CC wins you every fight other elements of combat (positioning, aggro management, buffs/debuffs, etc.) become irrelevant.

Edited August 30, 2014 by prodigydancer

[PrimeJunta]

@Immortalis I did read through it carefully. I did not understand it. I picked up some antipathy towards Josh, but failed to quite understand why. Do you think he's failing in what he's attempting, or that what he's attempting is not worth trying? If the former, then why not specify what you think is working and what not, so maybe he can take notice and make changes, rather than musing about his capabilities or motivations?

 

If it's just what you said later, i.e. that you like the camping but not the stash, then cool. That's a legit opinion and a data point for him.

 

I don't like the inventory either, but I'd like it fixed in the opposite direction -- just give us a self-categorizing unlimited party inventory that we can't access in combat, and a half-dozen quick-item slots that we can, and get rid of the "top of the pack" mechanic.

 

But that's because I dislike inventory management and would like it to be as easy as possible, and I think digging in your pack in mid-fight is cheesy. I don't get a lot of gameplay value from deciding which piece of vendor trash to dump and which to carry.

[Karkarov]

New build v271 at Pax Prime

 

2hr 43 min

 

http://www.twitch.tv/twitch/c/5027673

Good catch Sensuki.... lets see what we got...

 

So things I saw....

Well already see the skin on the godlike seems improved.  Also there are two more portraits apparently, though it shows neither of them.  Contrast is definitely higher on everything but could just be the stream/pc settings they are using.  The "loot bags" the beetles dropped did look a little different, much easier to see and they seemed to have harder edges.  BB Wizard is also throwing up some floaty runes when chanting some spells like the fireball, very nice improvement.  Also seeing some strong night time shadows, even a loot bag is casting one.  In fact in more loot bag related news it seems like the loot bag the spider dropped even has a different model than what the beetles were so there is some variety being introduced there.  Also BB Priest looked like she was throwing a hadoken when she cast that crushing pillar spell, very cool.

 

Combat wise it is hard to tell.  Combat log looked a little less bombed out, but Rose never played with it so can't be sure.  There was definitely more visual indicators.  Spells were getting more animations, graphical effects seemed easier to see.  That said Rose also played really conservatively (and intelligently) so only one or two characters was ever in melee.  Really we will have to get this build ourselves to have a better idea.  I am hopeful though.

 

Also someone thought Rose played bad???  What were you watching?  She played perfectly.  Only the Fighter ever got hit, most enemies (other than the over tuned still apparently too hard hitting stone beetles) did little to no damage, and she probably rested more for the heck of it.  She certainly did not need to "recover hp" after the spiders were down and plenty of abilities were left to deal with the Ogre.  However there is the age old saying.... smoke em if ya got em, and it isn't like her floor demo wasn't ending with the ogre.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Karkarov

[Mayama]

CC should be king because otherwise its just a damage race. Heavy CC on both sides makes combat much deeper than spamming your most damaging abilites.

[Karkarov]

CC should be king because otherwise its just a damage race. Heavy CC on both sides makes combat much deeper than spamming your most damaging abilites.

So long as people remember the oldest CC is called Tanking.

[Wintersong]

BTW for those bellyaching about "December or bust" and the consequences thereof for polish, balance etc. -- I'd like to point out that Obsidian does patch games post-release too. Uh, from time to time.

They do patch a lot. That's the issue. They don't have a good release reputation. And while that reputation cannot be broken by a single good release, it's a start. Plus no publisher excuse this time. Don't get me wrong, if they run out of money, they run out of money. But there are options like Early Access (for those who want the game Steamlocked).

[mutonizer]

Actually she would most likely been absolute fine even if she hadn't rest even single time, but they wanted to show rest mechanic and make sure that they don't replicate their demo from gamescom.

That's because you know the area and know what's ahead. So imagine you do NOT know the area, do NOT know what's ahead (and that the ogre is just around the corner and a total cakewalk anyway), just for a second.

 

You have your main tank at 40% health after two fights against single small spiders. You just entered a cave that is obviously spider infested and couple steps in, you see groups with 2 or 3 spiders, including big crystal ones that you never met before. That's what you can see, who knows if you're not gonna get ambushed or something.

You also know that once combat is engaged in any way shape or form, you can NEVER, ESCAPE. You cannot lose them, you cannot hide, you cannot zone out: You WILL need to kill whatever aggroed you, even if it's a frikkin dragon that you KNOW will instantly wipe the floor with you.

 

So, what do you do?

Well, first thing, save and make sure you don't over-write it, because if you do, you're massively screwed.

Then you start taking a couple steps in and try to pull a group carefully, noticing that a couple spiders are actually patrols that can link multiple groups together.

Then you start with your fighter in the melee but I mean, he lost 60% health from 2 spiders, these 4 are just chewing him up on Health despite you very easily healing the stamina loss and even though you still have TONS of stamina healing spells and the dwarf was actually full stamina, just the small accumulation of so many hits/grazes and poison and whatnot kills him. He's gone, forever, because you're a moron and choose to play on a harder setting.

 

From here on, you got 4 ranged, tons of stamina healing spells as well as DPS spells but I mean, these spiders are loose now and you CANNOT run, you have to finish it. You can't use any damage spell either because 90% of them are area effects and you were stupid enough to boost INT on your wizard, so now, every single damage spell he can cast fills out 1/2 your screen at the minimum, hitting your party all the time, so much for being "clever". You try to run a bit, but them spiders engaged you down in melee and every time you take a step, you're hobbled or something, so forget about that.

 

Despite all this, you do your best and you still have plenty of stamina healing spells so it's not a problem...right? Wtf, your rogue, full on stamina with DEF boost and status removal buffs, just died too because of accumulated Health loss. You still got 25% of your stamina healing spells, and lost 2 characters...great.

 

Finally, you go "screw this" and start unleashing Fireball after fireball on your Priest, ranger and the enemies and realize that you NEED to STOP healing stamina because if you keep at it, you'll actually kill them from Health loss while if they go down from Stamina loss now, you can clean up without killing them and they'll be back fresh once it's over. So you stop healing, let the priest and ranger die from your fireballs, easily clean up the roomand contemplate what you just learned:

- Tanks suck balls because they rely on taking focus damage, and nothing can heal focus damage...

- Priest suck balls because they rely on healing stamina across wide areas and your only problem is losing Health on specific characters...

- Stamina healing is CRAZY talk, better to let people die from stamina loss as fast as possible every battle, than try to keep them healed them because in the end, they'll die permanently from health loss!

- AE bombardment and AE CC, whether you hit friend or foes, is the way to go! Your friends go down and then take no further health damage (unlike actually healing them!) so it's not a problem, health damage is spread across the board instead of focused on a single character, and mobs die faster because they're too stupid to do anything else, spread out and whatnot! Pure win!

 

 

 

Or, you rest every couple battles, your dwarf never goes below 50% health, and it's never an issue

 

 

 

Of course this is exaggerated, but it's just to expose potential flaws in the system that I think are present.

[Immortalis]

@Immortalis I did read through it carefully. I did not understand it. I picked up some antipathy towards Josh, but failed to quite understand why. Do you think he's failing in what he's attempting, or that what he's attempting is not worth trying? If the former, then why not specify what you think is working and what not, so maybe he can take notice and make changes, rather than musing about his capabilities or motivations?

 

If it's just what you said later, i.e. that you like the camping but not the stash, then cool. That's a legit opinion and a data point for him.

 

I don't like the inventory either, but I'd like it fixed in the opposite direction -- just give us a self-categorizing unlimited party inventory that we can't access in combat, and a half-dozen quick-item slots that we can, and get rid of the "top of the pack" mechanic.

 

But that's because I dislike inventory management and would like it to be as easy as possible, and I think digging in your pack in mid-fight is cheesy. I don't get a lot of gameplay value from deciding which piece of vendor trash to dump and which to carry.

 

 

 

To be honest just reading this I see so many new conflicts in Josh Sawyers logic. Like for every degenerative thing he removed from IE he added another one in.

 

For example. Josh states that a patient player can collect every item that drops which is degenerative gameplay so he implemented an unlimited stash. Then he turns around and creates limited resting mechanic to prevent constant resting after each encounter.. However.. a patient player can just run back to the inn and restock up and the whole point of that mechanic was worked around using the same tactic that his limitless stash was supposed to prevent.

 

Does Josh have his heart in the right place? YES of course he wants to make a great game..

 

Did he have a bit of hubris when tackling this game? I have to say yes.. You didn't need to reinvent the wheel.. there were obvious issues with IE but you clearly thought you could do the best game ever on a small budget and even smaller timeline.. This wasn't the kickstarter to try new untested ideas.. it was the kickstarter to get people hooked back into IE style games.

 

 

The only thing I thought for sure you would agree with was the logical contradiction of those features.. I admit the second half is mostly my opinion and you may disagree, slightly agree or agree fully no clue.. We don't usually see eye to eye.. but there you go.

 

Again.. we obviously disagree on inventory sizes and item collection paradigms.. but that was just one example.. That wasn't the focus of what I was talking about.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Immortalis

[PrimeJunta]

Nah, I do disagree. I think you're reading Josh's motivations wrong. I see what he's attempting with each of the mechanics, and in particular the inventory thing isn't about degenerate gameplay at all IMO.

[wolfstriked]

Dont have beta so these are just my silly thoughts.

 

I always felt that sleeping in a dungeon or anywhere that's dangerous was freaking crazy and then to sleep multiple times?!?  I say get rid of camping supplies and make healing powers be a gift from the gods and behave like a mana system that refills with a short prayer and hopefully a sweet animation.

 

Another thing is the once per day,at will etc powers.I really disliked 4th edition and to see POE seem to follow it is saddening.And then the stamina thing where you take damage to that instead of your health?Why not just give more health to the characters and link stamina to your abilities.Like a mana pool for all classes stamina shows how much you can do per encounter.After a battle rest can refill stamina with sweet animations where the party sits around and rests,healers praying,magic users reading etc as the screen fades to black for a few seconds.As you level up the healer their ability to heal goes higher and higher so that at lower levels its a pain and you need multiple prayers to heal which slowly gets better and easier.Fighter classes get to use their stronger abilities more per encounter etc.

 

Resting at inns for bonuses is superb so do not touch.

Edited August 30, 2014 by wolfstriked

[Karkarov]

Nah, I do disagree. I think you're reading Josh's motivations wrong. I see what he's attempting with each of the mechanics, and in particular the inventory thing isn't about degenerate gameplay at all IMO.

The only thing he did purely to prevent degenerative gameplay was remove combat exp.  The resting this is part that sure, but it is also a general design and balance system to overhaul what was a pretty crappy reset system from the older games.

[Marceror]

 

 

Also, CC on what? She fights 1 or 2 random beetles then single random spiders! Also, she did use resources, mostly damaging spells and a lot of them. I'm saying she didn't have too, but she actually did, plenty of them and yet had to rest anyway.

 

 

Actually she would most likely been absolute fine even if she hadn't rest even single time, but they wanted to show rest mechanic and make sure that they don't replicate their demo from gamescom.

 

The fighter has abilities that make it a better tank that she was pretty much ignoring, so she could have done better.

 

As for resting, Adam also rested several times in the Gamescom demos, I think at the exact same places actually. So this really was a replication of the Gamescom demo, with the notable difference of a druid having been played rather than a paladin (though still a fire godlike).

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Also, CC on what? She fights 1 or 2 random beetles then single random spiders! Also, she did use resources, mostly damaging spells and a lot of them. I'm saying she didn't have too, but she actually did, plenty of them and yet had to rest anyway.

 

 

Actually she would most likely been absolute fine even if she hadn't rest even single time, but they wanted to show rest mechanic and make sure that they don't replicate their demo from gamescom.

 

The fighter has abilities that make it a better tank that she was pretty much ignoring, so she could have done better.

 

As for resting, Adam also rested several times in the Gamescom demos, I think at the exact same places actually. So this really was a replication of the Gamescom demo, with the notable difference of a druid having been played rather than a paladin (though still a fire godlike).

 

 

I meant Adam's first run in gamescom, one where his party was wiped twice by beetles

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

Is the combat dog-piling fixed?

The bugginess looks fixed, but Rose played her party as Fighter tanks while every other party member spams from range, which tends to be the most effective way to play atm (which is pretty banal) - something needs to be done about that.

 

Yeah. It almost looked like it was a deliberate strategy for showing it at that time. Any possible dog-piling didn't even get the chance to happen. In a few cases, you saw monsters with big hitboxes overlap party members, though. Rose played like a turn-based game, almost. I reckon the characters in the party were slightly clearer against the background. However, the deer still looked like a ghost deer, for instance.