"No Bad Builds" a failure in practice?

[Cabamacadaf]

Do I have to?

[Gromnir]

Do I have to?

no

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Ineth]

The word 'might' does not necessarily mean physical strength, I don't know why that's so hard for you to understand.

 

Yes it can mean different things (as in "mighty warrior" vs "mighty wizard"), but that's the crux of the matter: they are different things, i.e. different concrete connotations that happen to be expressible using the same word.

 

Using a single stat for them is an abstraction that may make sense if approached with a meta-gaming mindset (to achieve the "no bad builds" goal), but not in a down-to-earth roleplaying sense.

 

In the (D&D based) IE games, each attribute was relatively clearly delimited to a single concrete aspect that characterizes a person. They were easy to relate to, easy to visualize for roleplaying purposes, and easy to predict/understand/remember in their effects for powergaming purposes.

 

The PoE beta attributes, not so much. (Especially "Might".)

That's why some of us call them uninuitive - because they are meta-gamey abstractions rather than concrete relatable characterizations (and not because we are some kind of cartoonish fanboys who cannot accept deviations from D&D, so please stop those personal insults, Tartantyco & co.)

 

Can the attributes work despite being unintuitive?

Well technically yes, we can simple treat them as (arbitrary) abstract values, read the documentation to learn what (arbitrary) things they affect, and work with that. They do fulfil the purpose of adding strategy and variety to the game.

But still, I think the uninuitiveness/unreletableness/hamfistedness of the attributes and their effects, is a real loss. And I'm not convinced that the "no bad builds" goal (noble though as it may be) is worth that.

[PrimeJunta]

@Ineth: I disagree, partly. I don't think the stats in and of themselves are unintuitive, especially if you take the P:E metaphysical view that they describe your soul, whereas your body is shaped by that and your life experiences (=class). So an equally mighty wizard and fighter will simply have actualized the potential in their soul in different ways--the fighter with physical strength, the wizard with spell-casting power. And socially both would be equally intimidating, since we respond to projected might much the same way.

 

I do think some of the mechanical effects bound to them are unintuitive. Specifically:

 

Might: Damage makes sense, Fortitude kind of, healing feels arbitrary.

Dex: both Accuracy and Reflex make sense.

Con: Health, Stamina, and Fortitude all make sense.

Per: Interrupt and Reflex both feel arbitrary if not counterintuitive. With a reeeallly big stretch maybe. 

Int: This is the worst offender. None of the effects (Will, AoE, Duration) are comfortable fits, and two of them seem completely arbitrary.

Res: Will and Concentration both make sense.

 

So intuition-wise, IMO Per and Int need work, and Healing at least should be moved from Might to any of Per, Int, Res.

[Zack Fair]

Let me paste a quote from another user here, which shows how useless the attribute system is in its current state:
 

I took a closer look at the attributes system. For example:
 
Might 3 (minimum):

 
Might 18 (maximum):

 
The damage ouput (and healing too) increases by about 30%, that is all that min-maxing might does.
 
****ing around with the numbers changes the build so minimally, that it doesn't matter what you do. You might as well just put 13 points in every attribute:
 
Might 13:

 
That is just 10% less damage than maxing out might, and this works analogously for every attribute. After you dump intellect (which you should for classes that have no use of AoE) then the advantage is even more generous. I wonder why the game even has attributes, the only reason they seem to exist in PoE is to give the illusion that the game is more complex than it actually is, simply to deceive the player into thinking that his choices actually matter. It is a placebo effect and nothing more.

So why would you care about your attributes again. It seems that currently you can assign points in whatever way you want, because it will only have a minor effect on your character build. This needs to be fixed.

[Valeris]

Though I agree with the notion that the attribute system needs a revamp, 30% differemce IS actually noticeable, especially on higher difficulties / hardcore-modes turned on.

It is just pointless, cause the BETA is easy as **** and the attribute system as such is uninspired.

[Shdy314]

Let me paste a quote from another user here, which shows how useless the attribute system is in its current state:

 

I took a closer look at the attributes system. For example:

 

Might 3 (minimum):

 

Might 18 (maximum):

 

The damage ouput (and healing too) increases by about 30%, that is all that min-maxing might does.

 

****ing around with the numbers changes the build so minimally, that it doesn't matter what you do. You might as well just put 13 points in every attribute:

 

Might 13:

 

That is just 10% less damage than maxing out might, and this works analogously for every attribute. After you dump intellect (which you should for classes that have no use of AoE) then the advantage is even more generous. I wonder why the game even has attributes, the only reason they seem to exist in PoE is to give the illusion that the game is more complex than it actually is, simply to deceive the player into thinking that his choices actually matter. It is a placebo effect and nothing more.

So why would you care about your attributes again. It seems that currently you can assign points in whatever way you want, because it will only have a minor effect on your character build. This needs to be fixed.

Im just going to respond to you and the post you quoted here interchangeably since quoting it wholesale says you agree with every single thing the post claims.

 

And an 18 in DnD 3.5 is only giving a measly +4 to hit and damage. Sheesh why do melee characters even care? An 18 for a wizard is giving them a +4 DC to spells. How useless!  Are you being serious here? You just increased average dps by a considerable margin here. On weapons that are not even the most damaging ones. If you want to complain about Might go look at comparing the damage boost of fast 1h weapons and normal 2h ones. People are already doing much better work than you here. You didn't even look at abilities that have higher damage and thus are boosted even further.

 

Minor effects are still effects and thus NOT a placebo. Please know what words mean before you use them. A placebo is a sugar pill whose results are compared against a pill we hope actually does something. If the effects of the real medicine do not outperform the fake then the medicine is worthless. Here we clearly have a real effect on damage (and healing output) that make a difference. Yes a single point does not make a huge difference. In DnD 3.5 a single point makes even less of a difference since only even modifiers count. In 2e DnD every point only mattered at certain thresholds. 18/51 to 18/99 was still +2. No difference yet people are pretending the IE games had some sort of amazing attribute system where going from 3 to 4 was some kinda revelation in character power. There were stupid thresholds. Going 18/99 vs 18/00 was +2 vs +6! This was stupid and is not the same as making "every point super cereally important."

 

How big of an effect are you looking for before you are satisfied?

Edited August 23, 2014 by Shdy314

[Stun]

And an 18 in DnD 3.5 is only giving a measly +4 to hit and damage.

<gag>

 

That is such a ridiculous apples vs. Oranges retort that I can only conclude you're just trying to get some attention.

 

First, in 3.5, a standard sword only does 1-8 damage, not 14-23. So the extra +4 damage in 3.5 means more. It's a 50% increase vs. PoE's 40%. Second, and most significantly, Min-maxing has a FAR wider range in 3.5. It actually MEANS something. 3 STR in 3.5 incurs damage penalties. You're at -4 to damage. or -50% with a long sword. That's a 100% damage difference from a strength of 18. By comparison, 3 Might in POE still gives you a f*cking bonus of +10%. Third, 3.5 gives you a stat increase every 4 levels, thus allowing you to constantly be increasing your STR bonuses natually. By 12th level a Str maxed Human has 21 STR before any item or feat bonuses. That's +5 to damage, or +66%(?) damage. Fourth, 3.5 has passive weapon Feat Bonusses. Weapon specialization in 3.5 grants you another +4 to damage. If you're keeping up with this, You're now doing more than double damage with your long sword... on standard hits.

 

There's also a list of secondary factors that are too numerous to mention (critters have FAR more health in POE. Standard armor does not give the same damage reduction in 3.5 as it does in POE etc.

 

Lets not sugar coat Josh Sawyer's disgusting deception attempt here. He promised us real Build diversity. He officially swore to it. But there's NOTHING here. My fighter will be no different than yours in this game. This system only allows for meaningless, trivial, cosmetic alterations.

 

 

I'm gonna do something now that I very rarely ever do on the internet: Change my mind. This system is insulting.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Stun

[Tartantyco]

ITT: People arguing about stats that are far from set in stone as if we've been playing the release version for the last week.

[Superpat]

I say we lose the atrribute system and use traits to define the initial physical and mental characteristics of our characters, it would make for more straihtforwardness.

 

The traits can be used as checks in dialogue, give bonuses or maluses in combat and can describe general things like being strong or stupid as well as small details like being left handed or missing a finger.

[Matt516]

 

 

Yeah, sure. they had other systems with similar stats. It's not always 6 stats, yes, still, from game to game they deviate slightly and I've never encountered non-intuitive stat system in modern rpg. Even in Dragon Age 2 stats were self-explanatory and better, and it's a disturbing sign!

 

What you mean is, of course, you've never encountered a system that deviated further from D&D norm than maybe renaming a stat to something else, or adding in a stat for a unique mechanic. Dragon Age 2's system is only superior in your eyes because it's closer to D&D. 

 

Unlike D&D /= unintuitive. And I'm thinking most people coming in from less D&D-inspired games will take one look at Might, read the description, and go "okay, I can work with this" instead of "where's my strength stat?"

 

 

This is the big thing I don't think people are getting. D&D basically defined the western RPG. The only reason we thing STR, DEX, INT, WIS, CHA are core to any RPG attribute system is that every single game we've ever seen has done it or a variation. Sometimes DEX is split into DEX and AGI. Sometimes there's WIL replacing or in addition to WIS. But really.. think about it. Pretty much every western RPG you've ever played has owed it's attribute system to D&D. It's a testament to how great D&D's attribute system was.

 

But that doesn't mean it's the only good one. I personally find the world OE is building to be very compelling. The way they're implementing the concept of the soul into the lore and the mechanics alike is pretty cool. And although their stat system may be unintuitive to those raised on a D&D derived stat system, it isn't bad. Try not to compare it to D&D, but instead to a story you might read. Can you imagine a world in which people with strong souls were just.. stronger? At fighting, magic, healing.. at anything? It's unintuitive to us, sure. But that doesn't mean it's bad.

 

I think it's a fascinating system, and I really hope they don't cave to pressure and change it. Balance it, sure. The stats need some serious balancing. But I'd be very sad if Might went away and was replaced by Strength and (something else). I want to see how this attribute system plays out.

[Matt516]

@Ineth: I disagree, partly. I don't think the stats in and of themselves are unintuitive, especially if you take the P:E metaphysical view that they describe your soul, whereas your body is shaped by that and your life experiences (=class). So an equally mighty wizard and fighter will simply have actualized the potential in their soul in different ways--the fighter with physical strength, the wizard with spell-casting power. And socially both would be equally intimidating, since we respond to projected might much the same way.

 

I do think some of the mechanical effects bound to them are unintuitive. Specifically:

 

Might: Damage makes sense, Fortitude kind of, healing feels arbitrary.

Dex: both Accuracy and Reflex make sense.

Con: Health, Stamina, and Fortitude all make sense.

Per: Interrupt and Reflex both feel arbitrary if not counterintuitive. With a reeeallly big stretch maybe. 

Int: This is the worst offender. None of the effects (Will, AoE, Duration) are comfortable fits, and two of them seem completely arbitrary.

Res: Will and Concentration both make sense.

 

So intuition-wise, IMO Per and Int need work, and Healing at least should be moved from Might to any of Per, Int, Res.

 

Great post. I like the color highlighting. You also give a good explanation of why Might actually makes sense within the world of PoE.

 

We must continue to speak out in defense of Might! It's a cool idea and I trust OE's world-building here.

[Longknife]

How about we give INT = more casts per rest along with the other stats it gives? (Duration feels useful for some characters, AOE is pretty bleh)

So like imagine there's a spell you like but you only get 4 casts per rest, and having INT maxed vs. minimized results in 8?

 

It'd hardly be overpowered, but it'd also be a very welcomed convenience.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Longknife

[Grand_Commander13]

I think the casts-per-rest would be better on Resolve. Intelligence is already pretty good, but Resolve is still defensive-only and needs some love.

[Longknife]

I think the casts-per-rest would be better on Resolve. Intelligence is already pretty good, but Resolve is still defensive-only and needs some love.

 

 

Well my point was more....

 

The complaint I'm MORE concerned and worried about is the one I just made a thread about: stat meaningfulness vs. character variety and viability.

I think a good solution to try and compensate for both is to try and brainstorm additional effects that could be tacked onto attributes to help them carry more weight. AKA, if Might truly is 30% more damage when maxed, we can either discuss tweaks like making it give 60% instead (this has upsides and downsides) or tweaks like assigning new dimensions to the stats. (crit chance increase, spell casts, etc etc)

 

Where exactly it gets assigned, either is fine, but I think more dimensions for attributes would be a smart move overall.

[Helm]

The fundamental design of the game at it's core is broken. It is amusing to watch you guys give recommendations to fix something that can't be fixed.

 

But I honor the fact that you have noticed that there is a problem with the design. 

Edited August 23, 2014 by Helm

[Longknife]

The fundamental design of the game at it's core is broken. It is amusing to watch you guys give recommendations to fix something that can't be fixed.

 

But I honor the fact that you have noticed that there is a problem with the design. 

 

 

Care to elaborate?

 

You yourself posted a photo ranting about how small the influence of INT is on AOE size. That's by no means a "fundamental design issue," that's something that can be fixed by adjusting the int-to-range values. FFS all they have to do is adjust some numbers in a code string, it doesn't even require a new code.

[Tartantyco]

Don't engage him, Longknife. He's just a sad little troll.

[Helm]

 

The fundamental design of the game at it's core is broken. It is amusing to watch you guys give recommendations to fix something that can't be fixed.

 

But I honor the fact that you have noticed that there is a problem with the design. 

 

 

Care to elaborate?

 

Sure.

 

Let me paste a quote from another user here, which shows how useless the attribute system is in its current state:

 

I took a closer look at the attributes system. For example:

 

Might 3 (minimum):

 

Might 18 (maximum):

 

The damage ouput (and healing too) increases by about 30%, that is all that min-maxing might does.

 

****ing around with the numbers changes the build so minimally, that it doesn't matter what you do. You might as well just put 13 points in every attribute:

 

Might 13:

 

That is just 10% less damage than maxing out might, and this works analogously for every attribute. After you dump intellect (which you should for classes that have no use of AoE) then the advantage is even more generous. I wonder why the game even has attributes, the only reason they seem to exist in PoE is to give the illusion that the game is more complex than it actually is, simply to deceive the player into thinking that his choices actually matter. It is a placebo effect and nothing more.

 

So why would you care about your attributes again. It seems that currently you can assign points in whatever way you want, because it will only have a minor effect on your character build. This needs to be fixed.

 

The game is broken.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Helm

[limaxophobiacq]

With the exception of Perception I don't have any problem with what the stats affect, and that's probably at least partially to do with the interrupt system not being well communicated to the player at all.

 

Int giving increased AoE on barbarians carnage abilty or duration on knockdowns might seem a bit strange but it's at least very clear what it does and I figure it can be thought off as part of being a cunning warrior somehow, and having an incentive to make a smart barbarian is IMO pretty great.

 

Resolve feels reasonably in what if affects but again being tied to the interrupt system brings it down.

 

Edit: And yes, obviously all attribute effects are pretty minor unless you're comparing the upper and lower extremes, with the possible exception of Int for abilities that have both an AoE & a duration and so benefit doubly from Intellect.

Edited August 23, 2014 by limaxophobiacq

[Longknife]

 

 

The fundamental design of the game at it's core is broken. It is amusing to watch you guys give recommendations to fix something that can't be fixed.

 

But I honor the fact that you have noticed that there is a problem with the design. 

 

 

Care to elaborate?

 

Sure.

 

Let me paste a quote from another user here, which shows how useless the attribute system is in its current state:

 

I took a closer look at the attributes system. For example:

 

Might 3 (minimum):

 

Might 18 (maximum):

 

The damage ouput (and healing too) increases by about 30%, that is all that min-maxing might does.

 

****ing around with the numbers changes the build so minimally, that it doesn't matter what you do. You might as well just put 13 points in every attribute:

 

Might 13:

 

That is just 10% less damage than maxing out might, and this works analogously for every attribute. After you dump intellect (which you should for classes that have no use of AoE) then the advantage is even more generous. I wonder why the game even has attributes, the only reason they seem to exist in PoE is to give the illusion that the game is more complex than it actually is, simply to deceive the player into thinking that his choices actually matter. It is a placebo effect and nothing more.

 

So why would you care about your attributes again. It seems that currently you can assign points in whatever way you want, because it will only have a minor effect on your character build. This needs to be fixed.

 

The game is broken.

 

 

 

You blatantly just played into my entire argument.

 

 

The EXACT issue you just cited is one of stat weight. It's a simple adjustment of stat values and is by NO means a "fundamental design flaw."  A fundamental design flaw would imply the basic system as a whole is completely dysfunctional. What you're pointing out is imbalance, where some stats need improvement and some stats need nerfing. Even if you're of the opinion EVERY stat needs a dramatic change, it's still simple imbalance that can be edited in a matter of minutes.

[Helm]

 

 

 

The fundamental design of the game at it's core is broken. It is amusing to watch you guys give recommendations to fix something that can't be fixed.

 

But I honor the fact that you have noticed that there is a problem with the design. 

 

 

Care to elaborate?

 

Sure.

 

Let me paste a quote from another user here, which shows how useless the attribute system is in its current state:

 

I took a closer look at the attributes system. For example:

 

Might 3 (minimum):

 

Might 18 (maximum):

 

The damage ouput (and healing too) increases by about 30%, that is all that min-maxing might does.

 

****ing around with the numbers changes the build so minimally, that it doesn't matter what you do. You might as well just put 13 points in every attribute:

 

Might 13:

 

That is just 10% less damage than maxing out might, and this works analogously for every attribute. After you dump intellect (which you should for classes that have no use of AoE) then the advantage is even more generous. I wonder why the game even has attributes, the only reason they seem to exist in PoE is to give the illusion that the game is more complex than it actually is, simply to deceive the player into thinking that his choices actually matter. It is a placebo effect and nothing more.

 

So why would you care about your attributes again. It seems that currently you can assign points in whatever way you want, because it will only have a minor effect on your character build. This needs to be fixed.

 

The game is broken.

 

 

 

You blatantly just played into my entire argument.

 

 

The EXACT issue you just cited is one of stat weight. It's a simple adjustment of stat values and is by NO means a "fundamental design flaw."  A fundamental design flaw would imply the basic system as a whole is completely dysfunctional. What you're pointing out is imbalance, where some stats need improvement and some stats need nerfing. Even if you're of the opinion EVERY stat needs a dramatic change, it's still simple imbalance that can be edited in a matter of minutes.

 

Well if you say so. I hope you can fix in minutes what Sawyer couldn't figure out in the past two years.

 

You could give the player 80 attribute points or 0 points to spend, it would change hardly anything, because the game is designed that way. I'd like to see you play a Baldur's Gate game where you dumped all the attributes.

 

There is no build dversity, it is only an illusion that you think exists, because you can change the numbers.

[Longknife]

 

Well if you say so. I hope you can fix in minutes what Sawyer couldn't figure out in the past two years.

 

You could give the player 80 attribute points or 0 points to spend, it would change hardly anything, because the game is designed that way. I'd like to see you play a Baldur's Gate game where you dumped all the attributes.

 

There is no build dversity, it is only an illusion that you think exists, because you can change the numbers.

 

 

 

I take it you're the infamous muscle wizard everyone's been talking about, focusing more on his sweet abs than his mental intellect.

 

Pleasure to finally meet you, good sir.

[Helm]

 

 

Well if you say so. I hope you can fix in minutes what Sawyer couldn't figure out in the past two years.

 

You could give the player 80 attribute points or 0 points to spend, it would change hardly anything, because the game is designed that way. I'd like to see you play a Baldur's Gate game where you dumped all the attributes.

 

There is no build dversity, it is only an illusion that you think exists, because you can change the numbers.

 

 

 

I take it you're the infamous muscle wizard everyone's been talking about, focusing more on his sweet abs than his mental intellect.

 

Pleasure to finally meet you, good sir.

 

Have you created a game in Baldur's Gate and dumped all the stats yet? Or are you goint to try after you are done insulting?

 

This game has no build diversity unlike the IE games. It doesn't matter where you spend your points.

[Longknife]

 

Have you created a game in Baldur's Gate and dumped all the stats yet? Or are you goint to try after you are done insulting?

 

This game has no build diversity unlike the IE games. It doesn't matter where you spend your points.

 

 

 

Ok, I'm gonna try one more time to explain this to you with a simple analogy.

 

 

Let's pretend Fallout New Vegas just released, and you're saying the game is "fundamentally flawed in design" because the Brush Gun deals 140 damage a shot and fires as fast as a 9mm pistol, and therefore you have no motivation to use any weapon but the Brush Gun which boasts the best stats in every category.

   While that is undeniably an issue, the amount of work that would be required to fix this imbalance (there's that word again!) is so simple that you don't even need to wait for the developers to fix it. You can open the GECK, find the Brush Gun data file, then go to the damage and firing speed stats and tone them down. Spoiler alert: the Brush Gun once fired faster than it does today, but Obsidian released a balance patch to slow it's firing speed down. It didn't take months of coding, tireless work and a complete rehaul and redesign of the game. It took them changing a 2.4 to a 1.2 in the coding. Literally five minutes of work.

 

 

Nothing you have named spells absolute doom for the game. What you've named is something for Obsidian to consider and possibly open up their game and switch some little number values around. It's imbalance. Imbalance that can either be fixed easily enough thanks to the beta, or even IF it somehow made it to the game, it can still be fixed at any given time via a very small patch or even your own personal balance mod you make (which would be easy enough a 7 year old could do it).

  To claim the game is fundamentally flawed is absolute nonsense. If you truly believe that though, kindly walk out the door as there's truly no reason for you to be here if it's impossible for this game to be saved now, is there?

Edited August 23, 2014 by Longknife