More like BG2 please

[Rollcage8]

Some elements that BG2 didn't have were somewhat better then the alternative.

 

Stealth is different with circles instead of just eyeballing it yourself from play/practice. The circles are not something i'm fond of.

 

Camp supplies - why do I care, the story, the combat and exploration are great gameplay, Forced camp supplies feels tedious.

 

Food - Character goes to the toilet when I'm not playing, he can eat offscreen too.

 

Grappling ropes - Tedious, getting to a tamogochi in style. Having the skills to cross without penalties is Roleplay enough, no need to go into the fibres of the rope I used.

 

The User interface, the little combat overhead display is distracting and useless. The location of my player characters portait and health bar is as far away as you can possible make it from my character.  The Spellbook is hidden behind a bunch of mouseclicks as far away from the combat as it can get as well.

 

I still love the game, because it has plenty of elements that do match BG2 and other older games, these are things that I believe don't need to be in the game, or should be changed to be fun instead of tedious.

 

[Mrakvampire]

I agree with those that say that game should be more like old Infinity games. Even in Planescape we had old good Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma system. Why break that was not broken at all? Ok, I understand, Obsidian can't use D&D mechanics - fine, use your own, but try to stay as conservative as possible. Stats should be intuitive. When I install Fallout (no connection to Infinity games) and see 'Strenght' I already know, that Strength is good for melee guys, but not that important for other builds. If I see 'Charisma' in Arcanum, I already know (without reading manual) that it should affect my 'talk ability' but will have little use in combat. 

 

Now we have Strength (oh, sorry, Might) applied to Wizard (!) fireballs. LOLWUT? It breaks immersion for me like... nuke blast. How can I roleplay if I can't understand how stats of my character affect his personality and looks? Why my Wizard needs to go to gym in order to hurl powerfull fireballs? I want to play physically weak but very powerfull mage - please tell me what stats should I use. Or I want to play weak willed but very charismatic bard. No? This system doesn't allow to play these iconic examples? Bad system I say. 

 

I was very positive on this project, really positive and had high expectations from team. Right now, I'm not happy at all. Miniature Giant Cosmic Hamster of Obsidian Order is not happy at all with this game so far. 

Edited August 20, 2014 by Mrakvampire

[svartelric]

 

Ok, for the people who want a "copy" of Baldur's Gate 1 or 2, I have a suggestion: install and play BG 1 & 2.

 

PoE was meant from the beginning to be a 'spiritual successor' of the Infinity Engine games, which included BG 1 & 2, IWD 1 & 2, Planescape. If you prefer BG and think you're entitled to have a game more similar to BG than those other games, you are deluded and your point is too subjective and too narrow to be of any use to the discussion.

 

Hello "Mr. Elitist". Everyone are entitled to their opinion. And of course an opinion is subjective... duh. If the developers think that the feedback is crap then they can say so. You are not in any position to judge if his/hers opinions are too narrow to be of any use.

 

I don't understand why you are trying to bash on other people?

 

 

An opinion can also be informed and take account of objective circumstances, lest you make a fool of yourself. To each his own, I guess. If you think you can say whatever passes through your brain and then call it opinion, you're obviously free to do so, and I'm free to consider your point of view less useful than others.

[Messier-31]

Why is everybody using Eldoth's portrait as their avatar

 

Probably 'cause he's freaking awesome.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Messier-31

[AdaMusic]

 

 

Ok, for the people who want a "copy" of Baldur's Gate 1 or 2, I have a suggestion: install and play BG 1 & 2.

 

PoE was meant from the beginning to be a 'spiritual successor' of the Infinity Engine games, which included BG 1 & 2, IWD 1 & 2, Planescape. If you prefer BG and think you're entitled to have a game more similar to BG than those other games, you are deluded and your point is too subjective and too narrow to be of any use to the discussion.

 

Hello "Mr. Elitist". Everyone are entitled to their opinion. And of course an opinion is subjective... duh. If the developers think that the feedback is crap then they can say so. You are not in any position to judge if his/hers opinions are too narrow to be of any use.

 

I don't understand why you are trying to bash on other people?

 

 

An opinion can also be informed and take account of objective circumstances, lest you make a fool of yourself. To each his own, I guess. If you think you can say whatever passes through your brain and then call it opinion, you're obviously free to do so, and I'm free to consider your point of view less useful than others.

 

 

An opinion that is informed and take account of objective circumstances is still subjective. If you think that your opinion is less subjective and more valuable than other peoples opinion then I'm free to entitle you elitist and also consider your point of view less useful than others.

 

I feel like you need to look yourself in the mirror before bashing on others.

 

Now: let us go back to topic instead of discussing if people who like Baldur's Gate are entitled to opinions or not.

Edited August 20, 2014 by AdaMusic

[Sonntam]

 

Ok, for the people who want a "copy" of Baldur's Gate 1 or 2, I have a suggestion: install and play BG 1 & 2.

 

PoE was meant from the beginning to be a 'spiritual successor' of the Infinity Engine games, which included BG 1 & 2, IWD 1 & 2, Planescape. If you prefer BG and think you're entitled to have a game more similar to BG than those other games, you are deluded and your point is too subjective and too narrow to be of any use to the discussion.

 

Hello "Mr. Elitist". Everyone are entitled to their opinion. And of course an opinion is subjective... duh. If the developers think that the feedback is crap then they can say so. You are not in any position to judge if his/hers opinions are too narrow to be of any use.

 

I don't understand why you are trying to bash on other people?

 

Tons of subjective opinions just will be of little worth. Everyone has their own opinion what the perfect isometric game was. Unless you can argument in which way the game would benefit from becoming more like *insert game*, then it's useless for the devs.

[Mrakvampire]

Tons of subjective opinions just will be of little worth. Everyone has their own opinion what the perfect isometric game was. Unless you can argument in which way the game would benefit from becoming more like *insert game*, then it's useless for the devs.

 

Please speak only for yourself. Devs can speak for themselves quite good.

[Sonntam]

 

Tons of subjective opinions just will be of little worth. Everyone has their own opinion what the perfect isometric game was. Unless you can argument in which way the game would benefit from becoming more like *insert game*, then it's useless for the devs.

 

Please speak only for yourself. Devs can speak for themselves quite good.

 

Update by Josh Sawyer, Project Lead

 

A Request for Decorum in Feedback

 

As backers who have elected to participate in the Backer Beta, you are almost assuredly among the most passionate and detail-oriented people who will eventually play Pillars of Eternity. As such, we, the developers, fully expect that you will have very strong positive and negative opinions about many of the things you see in the Backer Beta. While you should not hold back in your opinions on a given feature or piece of content, please try to focus on constructive criticism that we can use to make the game better. It's useful to know if you don't like something, but it's more useful to know what types of changes would make you like it more.

 

The devs have spoke quite clearly, if you ask me.

[Kharador]

I disagree with the title a lot.

More like Pillars of Eternity please, but much better.

[AdaMusic]

 

 

Ok, for the people who want a "copy" of Baldur's Gate 1 or 2, I have a suggestion: install and play BG 1 & 2.

 

PoE was meant from the beginning to be a 'spiritual successor' of the Infinity Engine games, which included BG 1 & 2, IWD 1 & 2, Planescape. If you prefer BG and think you're entitled to have a game more similar to BG than those other games, you are deluded and your point is too subjective and too narrow to be of any use to the discussion.

 

Hello "Mr. Elitist". Everyone are entitled to their opinion. And of course an opinion is subjective... duh. If the developers think that the feedback is crap then they can say so. You are not in any position to judge if his/hers opinions are too narrow to be of any use.

 

I don't understand why you are trying to bash on other people?

 

Tons of subjective opinions just will be of little worth. Everyone has their own opinion what the perfect isometric game was. Unless you can argument in which way the game would benefit from becoming more like *insert game*, then it's useless for the devs.

 

 

Don't you see how ironical your own post is? Without argumentation you say that the developers don't find subjective opinions to be of worth. And the subjective opinions without argumentation you are talking about... what opinion are you specifically talking about? And if you are talking generally, why reply to my post?

[Billy O]

 

Problem is that the new game design changes are for worse. I haven't seen one thing in game design that has improved in PoE from IE games like BG2. 

 

Really? Not one thing. I think you are overreacting. 

[sorophx]

What I'm saying is that they shouldn't stray too far from the BG2 formula. Yes, there is the same 2D landscape present, but there is a lot more that BG2 offered up in terms of a tried and tested gameplay mechanic, etc.

what mechanics are these, care to elaborate? from what I can tell this is exactly what BG2 was. 

 

or are you saying PoE differs too much from D&D? well, that's to be expected, since D&D is ****

[AdaMusic]

 

 

Problem is that the new game design changes are for worse. I haven't seen one thing in game design that has improved in PoE from IE games like BG2. 

 

Really? Not one thing. I think you are overreacting. 

 

 

Well.. there are lots of improvements engine wise (dynamic lightning, "2.5D", etc) and graphically (backgrounds, props, etc) but the game design changes are mostly for worse. The only good one I can come up with is the new dialogue system which has some kind of AI that "remembers" what kind of character you are playing.

 

And about the bad game design choices:

1. I don't like the new inventory system; it is more casual (less immersion and takes less strategical thought than the IE inventory system) while being more complicated (for argumentation see the thread about the stack inventory system).

2. I also think that the new stats are less immersive because they do not describe a character as good as "classical" stats, such as charisma, strength and dexterity (what does "Might" really mean? Feels much more vague).

3. I dislike the new approach to making "all classes interesting"; because it makes magic less interesting and special; compare D&D (IE) to WoW (PoE). It also makes combat slower without adding strategy, fun or immersion. I feel like this is also a way to casualize.

[archangel979]

 

I certainly hope that they take far more inspiration from Planescape: Torment than they do from Baldur's Gate 2. I'll admit I enjoyed BG2 right up until you got Imoen back (at which point it took a dive), but Torment was something else altogether. Lots of fond memories there.

 

But then the complaints in the original post really have nothing to do with any particular game. I mean, you want a reason to play a race other than human? This isn't some war game where figuring out the optimal stats for your class is part of the fun. Why not ask for a mechanical inventive not to play a male, while you're at it? As for the attributes being dissimilar to the AD&D games, all I can say is thank goodness. You got your vancian magic, but don't go campaigning for them to take that horrible attribute system back too.

 

I was hoping for something inbetween PST and BG2. In my opinion BG2 had better game design and GUI while PST was far more hm.. philosophically interesting and I also liked the even "harder" focus on dialogue.

 

That is not something in between, that is PST in BG2 UI and using BG2 game mechanics. 

They never promised that, they just said story and conversations will be more in line with PST quality than BG2. 

[archangel979]

 

What I'm saying is that they shouldn't stray too far from the BG2 formula. Yes, there is the same 2D landscape present, but there is a lot more that BG2 offered up in terms of a tried and tested gameplay mechanic, etc.

what mechanics are these, care to elaborate? from what I can tell this is exactly what BG2 was. 

 

or are you saying PoE differs too much from D&D? well, that's to be expected, since D&D is ****

 

You say that without understanding anything, I am sorry to say this. 

PoE so far works very closely to D&D 4th edition. It is still D&D, but a different version.

[AdaMusic]

 

 

I certainly hope that they take far more inspiration from Planescape: Torment than they do from Baldur's Gate 2. I'll admit I enjoyed BG2 right up until you got Imoen back (at which point it took a dive), but Torment was something else altogether. Lots of fond memories there.

 

But then the complaints in the original post really have nothing to do with any particular game. I mean, you want a reason to play a race other than human? This isn't some war game where figuring out the optimal stats for your class is part of the fun. Why not ask for a mechanical inventive not to play a male, while you're at it? As for the attributes being dissimilar to the AD&D games, all I can say is thank goodness. You got your vancian magic, but don't go campaigning for them to take that horrible attribute system back too.

 

I was hoping for something inbetween PST and BG2. In my opinion BG2 had better game design and GUI while PST was far more hm.. philosophically interesting and I also liked the even "harder" focus on dialogue.

 

That is not something in between, that is PST in BG2 UI and using BG2 game mechanics. 

They never promised that, they just said story and conversations will be more in line with PST quality than BG2. 

 

 

I have never said they promised something else than they are giving us. I am just here to give feedback hoping the devs will make the game closer to my vision of the perfect cRPG (BG2 game design/graphics with PST story/conversations).

 

Dialogue wise and graphically the beta is very promising. I think the game only need to work on a few tweaks on models and some bigger tweaks on game design.

Edited August 20, 2014 by AdaMusic

[sorophx]

yes, but BG2 used D&D 2E, n'est ce pas? 

[Mrakvampire]

Ok. Here is my constructive criticism:

 

1. Return classic intuitive stats (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma). Don't want to have dump stats? Just make sure that there is logical explanation why should Wizard take high Strength. Maybe there could be builds of melee wizard? Or maybe Strength could contribute to defenses vs. some kind of physical attacks (like knockouts). No need to actually use D&D system, just use classic stats that are self-explanatory.

 

2. Return classic IE inventory and add more filters/etc to it. Bring back item weight and encumbance. No more console-like infinite stashes! If you want more space - buy magic bags. 

 

3. Remove at least 50% of abilities from non-casters and make others mostly in format of 'enabled / disabled'. This will greatly reduce amount of micromanagement that is required in combat.

[archangel979]

yes, but BG2 used D&D 2E, n'est ce pas? 

Yes.

 

But PoE so far is closer to 4e D&D than Neverwinter MMO is , or that DDO is to 3rd edition.

Edited August 20, 2014 by archangel979

[AdaMusic]

Ok. Here is my constructive criticism:

 

1. Return classic intuitive stats (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma). Don't want to have dump stats? Just make sure that there is logical explanation why should Wizard take high Strength. Maybe there could be builds of melee wizard? Or maybe Strength could contribute to defenses vs. some kind of physical attacks (like knockouts). No need to actually use D&D system, just use classic stats that are self-explanatory.

 

2. Return classic IE inventory and add more filters/etc to it. Bring back item weight and encumbance. No more console-like infinite stashes! If you want more space - buy magic bags. 

 

3. Remove at least 50% of abilities from non-casters and make others mostly in format of 'enabled / disabled'. This will greatly reduce amount of micromanagement that is required in combat.

 

Agree 100%. These small but relevant changes could be the difference of PoE being "a cRPG" or "a masterpiece".

[Billy O]

 

 

 

Problem is that the new game design changes are for worse. I haven't seen one thing in game design that has improved in PoE from IE games like BG2. 

 

Really? Not one thing. I think you are overreacting. 

 

 

Well.. there are lots of improvements engine wise (dynamic lightning, "2.5D", etc) and graphically (backgrounds, props, etc) but the game design changes are mostly for worse. The only good one I can come up with is the new dialogue system which has some kind of AI that "remembers" what kind of character you are playing.

 

And about the bad game design choices:

1. I don't like the new inventory system; it is more casual (less immersion and takes less strategical thought than the IE inventory system) while being more complicated (for argumentation see the thread about the stack inventory system).

2. I also think that the new stats are less immersive because they do not describe a character as good as "classical" stats, such as charisma, strength and dexterity (what does "Might" really mean? Feels much more vague).

3. I dislike the new approach to making "all classes interesting"; because it makes magic less interesting and special; compare D&D (IE) to WoW (PoE). It also makes combat slower without adding strategy, fun or immersion. I feel like this is also a way to casualize.

 

 

1. I like the streamlined inventory system but have not read the thread you refer to, can you link it?

2. Here I agree with you.

3. All classes should be interesting. I'm not sure how it makes a game casual to give non-magical characters skills and abilities. It sure feels fun to me.

 

Other game design improvements: the engagement system, Ranger animal companions, and the scouting system are three that come to mind right off the top of my head.

[Billy O]

Ok. Here is my constructive criticism:

 

3. Remove at least 50% of abilities from non-casters and make others mostly in format of 'enabled / disabled'. This will greatly reduce amount of micromanagement that is required in combat.

 

I would say to reduce micromanagement for these characters I would also give them more passive skills. When I've played melee characters in other games I would always rather have an ability that gives a passive 2% chance to block or something than and active one that gives you 50% chance to block for five seconds. In a long fight there will be a similar effect but less to manage.

[AdaMusic]

 

 

 

 

Problem is that the new game design changes are for worse. I haven't seen one thing in game design that has improved in PoE from IE games like BG2. 

 

Really? Not one thing. I think you are overreacting. 

 

 

Well.. there are lots of improvements engine wise (dynamic lightning, "2.5D", etc) and graphically (backgrounds, props, etc) but the game design changes are mostly for worse. The only good one I can come up with is the new dialogue system which has some kind of AI that "remembers" what kind of character you are playing.

 

And about the bad game design choices:

1. I don't like the new inventory system; it is more casual (less immersion and takes less strategical thought than the IE inventory system) while being more complicated (for argumentation see the thread about the stack inventory system).

2. I also think that the new stats are less immersive because they do not describe a character as good as "classical" stats, such as charisma, strength and dexterity (what does "Might" really mean? Feels much more vague).

3. I dislike the new approach to making "all classes interesting"; because it makes magic less interesting and special; compare D&D (IE) to WoW (PoE). It also makes combat slower without adding strategy, fun or immersion. I feel like this is also a way to casualize.

 

 

1. I like the streamlined inventory system but have not read the thread you refer to, can you link it?

2. Here I agree with you.

3. All classes should be interesting. I'm not sure how it makes a game casual to give non-magical characters skills and abilities. It sure feels fun to me.

 

Other game design improvements: the engagement system, Ranger animal companions, and the scouting system are three that come to mind right off the top of my head.

 

 

1. Here is the thread about the new inventory system: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67254-feedback-about-the-new-inventory-the-stash-system/

2. - 

3. I agree that all classes should be interesting. In my opinion, they already were in the old IE games. While fighters were gear based the mages were ability based. It made sense. I don't think this game design change is a "failure" because it can work if you want a more "high fantasy" touch where magic is not as "special" as in the IE games. I just think it is a bad decision because: I. It cost more time and cash to develop. II. It doesn't really make fighters more interesting. III. It makes magic less "special".

 

Other game design improvements: Yea you are right. These are improvements. I was too harsh.

Edited August 20, 2014 by AdaMusic

[Billy O]

 

1. Here is the thread about the new inventory system: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67254-feedback-about-the-new-inventory-the-stash-system/

 

I guess I was not clear on how the stash works. I had assumed it was just for your stronghold, not a magical bottomless chest you take everywhere. That does seem like a bad idea. What I do like is the group inventory screen. That's a major improvement over constantly having so swap loot between characters. I think you should have a very large bag space with a weight limit.

[hairyscotsman2]

The rest limited characters should have something else at-will. The wizard's staff attack is really uninspiring/not engaging. If the priest even got a very small and minor healing burst on a successful combat hit it would be something there too. As it is, it feels far too Vancian for my full enjoyment.