Police arrest, attack reporters; order reporters NOT to cover protest. IN UNITED STATES.

[averagedog]

A no nonsense approach is exactly what this country needs.  Seriously >.> The world is becoming a meaner place. Resources are becoming more and more scarce. If society is going to survive with positive forces at work, there needs to be changes. With each new set of births into this world for every one death, the life of a single person is cheapened further(in an economic sense).

[Gromnir]

slippery slope arguments is unnecessary and is ignoring certain realities. there were numerous protests in other cities following the shooting o' mr. brown. whatever the real issues is leading to unrest, stated complaints include complaints that cops in the US is using disproportionate force 'gainst black suspects, and that blacks is disproportionate treated as suspects w/o justification. using serious force to quell disorder would, for many, be a validation o' the aforementioned complaints. to go into ferguson and use a no-nonsense approach could, at this time, result in more bloodshed both local and nationally.

 

regardless, as volatile as the situation is currently, am gonna hate to see what happens during/after a potential criminal trial o' the cop. am not personally seeing much justification for the shooting, but am familiar enough with these situations that am doubting state will be able to do better than manslaughter. the videotape o' the robbery and the apparently significant bruising on the cop's face will create a trial that does not go as many people in ferguson will be demanding.

 

on the positive side, the folks in missouri will have far more experience wit crowd control, and with a trial they will have time to prepare.  is that a positive? kinda?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

A no nonsense approach is exactly what this country needs.  Seriously >.> The world is becoming a meaner place. Resources are becoming more and more scarce. If society is going to survive with positive forces at work, there needs to be changes. With each new set of births into this world for every one death, the life of a single person is cheapened further(in an economic sense).

 

Yeah, that makes for great storylines in games and movies, but in reality the majority of the world is becoming safer, equality and civil rights are progressing, and even those living below the poverty line in developed nations are much better off than they were 50 years ago.  

 

Plus in the last decade our ability to tap into renewable resources has grown tremendously.  There is still a lot of progress to be made, but again we've taken huge steps forward compared to the past.

[Rosbjerg]

^ yep, the teenagers are simply growing up and becoming jaded adults and realizing that the world ain't as awesome as the 90's commercials they grew up on told them. And course it's easier to have a snotty anti-authoritarian attitude than actually trying to make the change you wish to see.

 

 

That being said - from a citizens point of view I often feel that the police get away with negligence a lot more often than they should. A simple "yeah, we screwed up" would come a long way as a bare minimum. 

 

Killing a guy should kick off a very serious public scrutiny of the whole episode, ensuring that force of this magnitude is only used when absolutely necessary (and preferably not at all).

[Malcador]

Not too sure comparing poor today with poor 50 years ago indicates much. Better to compare the number of poor and income disparity, perhaps.

[Walsingham]

A no nonsense approach is exactly what this country needs.  Seriously >.> The world is becoming a meaner place. Resources are becoming more and more scarce. If society is going to survive with positive forces at work, there needs to be changes. With each new set of births into this world for every one death, the life of a single person is cheapened further(in an economic sense).

 

Actually it isn't. Not according to any criminal data that I've seen.

 

I swear to God that some people are happier thinking we're all doomed.

 

Incidentally, I assume you all know about the old prison experiment? You should check it out before you make up your mind about cops.

[Malcador]

Seems a lot of doubt on that experiment's usefulness. Doesn't really account for the Blue Mafia aspect of police though (it is always funny when I hear them say 'brothers') , rather then their tendency to power trip.

[Rosbjerg]

Princeton study claims America has degenerated into an oligarchy, which would explain police brutality - gotta keep the plebs in order. source.

(and the whole thing)

[Zoraptor]

[you don't know slander/libel any better than you know presumption o' innocence] [multiple media reports] [what's the relevance]

 

Would sue in Britain :smug: the 'multiple media sources' all resolve to one, the Israeli Police who got nabbed beating the 15 yr old up and who when given the opportunity to back up their claims neither charged nor offered any evidence in the forum in which it would actually be tested. Thus their claim upon which your entire thesis is based, is valueless.

 

Actually I am rather amused you took the whole defamation thing so dead seriously, right down to the legalism the 'ohno its libel cos its written' predicted.

 

But it does make a good parallel though, how the people in Ferguson end up with scarves etc wrapped around their faces to minimise tear gas effects then get accused by the peanut gallery of being 'thugs' deserving of what they get. It's a very useful circular argument for the authoritarian types; use smoke and tear gas, people protect their faces, faces concealed == thug*, hit them with smoke and tear gas! Shame they don't have the introspection to go the reverse way though; dress and act like soldier in hostile environment, get treated like soldier in hostile environment, have to dress and act like soldier in hostile environment. 'Give everyone hammers and soon every problem looks like a nail' in action.

 

And, of course, in these cases you always end up with people willing to vilify the original victim to defend their chosen side, whether it be Brown or Khdeir, other people arrested then released without charge who some believe must have done something wrong- not taking the sensible route and just kowtowing to their masters to save trouble, perhaps- people who take whatever authorities release as gospel etc etc.

 

*Even those locals who stand around protecting local stores from the out of towners mainly responsible for the looting.

 

ah, so when you said, "I'm sure that's a coincidence" you were being literal?

 

Nope, you can take it any way you want. Want to believe Israel's training had a large effect, take it as sarcasm. Want to believe it had no effect, take it as literal. I- literally- don't have any opinion on the matter except in so far as expecting various police to share policing methods as a matter of course. You're just looking to pick a fight, basically.

 

Whether Israeli training actually influenced the results is something only the Ferguson PD can answer. And I'd bet any money that they won't.

[Gromnir]

"But it does make a good parallel though,"

 

no it doesn't. tariq situation got nothing to do with furgeson-- is... spam. in any event, compare brown to florida teen is as bizarre, which is simply par for the course for you. our comments about florida teen had Nothing to do with his guilt or innocence o' a crime. we has also mentioned many times that israelis acted excessive in arresting the yutz who decided to join a rock throwing mob on his vacation. tariq's actions were generating very little sympathy here in the States because tariq were a moron. being a moron is not a crime, so no presumptions o' innocence. you keep avoiding the real issue regarding tariq: was it a good idea for a fifteen year old from florida to join a rock throwing mob in palestine? again, 'cause am sure you has already forgotten, the israelis should not have beaten tariq as they did, but the likelihood that israelis would hurt palestinians engaged in rioting makes tariq voluntarily joining such a fracas all the more idiotic. a keffiyeh, btw, is not particular useful protection from tear gas. a good counter measure is leaving the area. best counter measure is Not joining the freaking rock throwing mob in the first place, a point you keep missing. 

 

"Actually I am rather amused you took the whole defamation thing so dead seriously, right down to the legalism the 'ohno its libel cos its written' predicted."

 

which is pretty much an admission that every time you try and raise legal issues, you is just spouting ignorance. for once do yourself a favor and take our advice: don't post law. serious. explain in plain english and you will avoid these embarrassing backpedalls. 

 

"Whether Israeli training actually influenced the results is something only the Ferguson PD can answer. And I'd bet any money that they won't."

 

*chuckle* 

 

for a guy throwing in defamation references, you don't know innuendo. it is funny watching you post self into incomprehension however. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

The comparison to Ferguson is fine. Same thought processes going on both places, many of the same actual processes too. Scarves/ shirts etc don't stop tear gas in Ferguson either, but there's plenty of people trying to use them as such etc.

 

As for Khdeir, well at least you've now stopped saying he was carrying a sling like it was anything other than an unsupported allegation- mission accomplished there- and gone all in on victim blaming without that added prop. Of course, there's no evidence that he was actively demonstrating either, but I think I'll let that go.

[Walsingham]

I wasn't going to engage with this business with sling carrying/not carrying.

 

But you presumably would accept that in the Israeli context there are military rockets zipping about? Air-raid sirens, so forth? Hardly St Louis.

 

The most interesting thing to me is how - and I'll actually defer to Gromnir on this - it seems the cops in the USA haven't had full public support since the riots in the '80s.

[Nepenthe]

I wasn't going to engage with this business with sling carrying/not carrying.

 

But you presumably would accept that in the Israeli context there are military rockets zipping about? Air-raid sirens, so forth? Hardly St Louis.

 

The most interesting thing to me is how - and I'll actually defer to Gromnir on this - it seems the cops in the USA haven't had full public support since the riots in the '80s.

 

That's probably because (full) public support (like respect) isn't just demanded, it's earned.

[Gromnir]

The comparison to Ferguson is fine. Same thought processes going on both places, many of the same actual processes too. Scarves/ shirts etc don't stop tear gas in Ferguson either, but there's plenty of people trying to use them as such etc.

 

As for Khdeir, well at least you've now stopped saying he was carrying a sling like it was anything other than an unsupported allegation- mission accomplished there- and gone all in on victim blaming without that added prop. Of course, there's no evidence that he was actively demonstrating either, but I think I'll let that go.

absolutely hilarious.

 

we can show examples o' excessive police violence from numerous european nations, particularly eastern european.  can do the same for places such as japan and australia too. the fact that police does use too much force in tense situations is shocking news to you? sure, russian police sodomizing suspects over s'posed refusal to admit $200 theft o' computer hardware is a bit shocking, but is hardly unique.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/29/world/europe/russia-jolted-into-action-on-police-brutality.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

the fact that you has used innuendo (legal term btw) to draw a correlation 'tween police in israel and missouri based on a week long visit by the retired police chief o' st. louis county is the straight-up conspiracy theory nonsense we has come to expect from the wackiest elements o' this board. 

 

as for the florida teen that gots 0 relevance to current thread, the fact you seem to think the sling were the essential element in our posts is baffling. lord knows we ain't believing tariq 'cause he claims he didn't use the sling israelis claim were found in his possession. nevertheless, that element is hardly essential to be showing that the american teen were a complete idiot. duh. in the video o' tariq you can see one officer carrying a sling, but no doubt that were a plant, or just something tariq were having in his pocket or dropped on ground. heck, tariq originally had only claimed that he had not hurled rocks at police... he didn't initial claim that he had no sling.

 

oh, and since you find absence as compelling evidence, how 'bout absence o' israeli apology?  one israeli officer received a 15 day suspension. one. US state department gets involved and one guy gets a reprimand? no news 'bout a civil case neither, eh? if we were talking 'bout russia or china our north korea, Gromnir would be happy to simple get out of the country alive following a similar incident, but in the case o' an american in israel, we would be fighting tooth and nail to make sure innocent passerby types (HA!) such as our self and tariq would be safe in the future. without an apology from israel, there would be no end o' noise and litigation from Gromnir.  

 

but again, in case it is missed, raise tariq situation when the issue you raised were the s'posed non-coincidence that a now retired missouri police chief had visited israel for anti-terrorism education is beyond ridiculous. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

I wasn't going to engage with this business with sling carrying/not carrying.

 

But you presumably would accept that in the Israeli context there are military rockets zipping about? Air-raid sirens, so forth? Hardly St Louis.

 

The most interesting thing to me is how - and I'll actually defer to Gromnir on this - it seems the cops in the USA haven't had full public support since the riots in the '80s.

am not sure what significance the 80s represent. tensions 'tween various minority groups and the police were probable less in the 80s than in the 50s and  60s... is arguable 'bout the 70s or 90s. honestly, compared to civil rights era, this all seems kinda strange. 

 

looking at general approval and confidence levels o' cops you will see that the numbers is extreme high... am thinking hurl posted a link earlier.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66695-police-arrest-attack-reporters-order-reporters-not-to-cover-protest-in-united-states/?p=1479289

 

'course our map o' st. louis is representative o' part o' the problem in talking 'bout confidence in cops. different counties and states and municipalities mean that when Gromnir speaks o' cops, a person in LA or Chicago is likely to have much different experiences. in our own locale, there is considerable difference 'tween roseville, folsom, carmichael, elk grove, and sac city cops (among others), and we is just as likely to be dealing with sac county sheriff or the chp. say "cops" can refer to any one o' those relative autonomous departments. 

 

our personal anecdotal experience 'bout cop confidence would be that last few years has seen a decrease in cop confidence with a general trending decrease since the 90s, but am suspecting that much o' that is due to economic misfortunes. disparity 'tween the haves and have nots has always been massive in the US, but recent times has been rough, particular for the have nots. anger at government is kinda vague and unspecific. cops is the most common street-level government official people will come into contact with. 

 

...

 

am hesitant to mention this 'cause it makes us sound old and outta touch, but there is elements in american culture that is promoting unfortunate ideas. apparently, being "disrespected" is the greatest insult one may give to another human being. responding with violence to perceived disrespect is acceptable and even glorified. there were significant gang warfare in chicago in the 70s, but Gromnir lived south side in the 80s and 90s when serious weapons began appearing. at that time there were lack o' confidence that police or fire department would show up to an emergency, but the perceived danger from cops were relative slight. statistics show that actual danger from cops nowadays is even less than it were when we were a teen, but the perception is complete different.

 

also, there is subjects we cannot talk about. being labeled as a racist or bigot prevents open discussion o' many topics, and so perceptions fester and become malignant. crime is higher amongst various minority groups. interracial crime is significantly higher between and betwixt certain groups. certain types o' crime is much more prevalent amongst certain racial groups... but not necessarily racial as we think. there is reasons for these problems and those problems might be fixable, but even on an anonymous message board, we is reticent to bring up some issues, 'cause it forever labels us as for or against some perceived unspeakable evil. how the hell can you fix problems you can't even talk about? so we get what we got now in the US where violent crime and police violence has decreased in recent years, but perception is complete different.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 18, 2014 by Gromnir

[Nepenthe]

 

The comparison to Ferguson is fine. Same thought processes going on both places, many of the same actual processes too. Scarves/ shirts etc don't stop tear gas in Ferguson either, but there's plenty of people trying to use them as such etc.

 

As for Khdeir, well at least you've now stopped saying he was carrying a sling like it was anything other than an unsupported allegation- mission accomplished there- and gone all in on victim blaming without that added prop. Of course, there's no evidence that he was actively demonstrating either, but I think I'll let that go.

absolutely hilarious.

 

we can show examples o' excessive police violence from numerous european nations, particularly eastern european.

 

Am not sure comparing U.S. to ex-soviet block countries is a particularly good comparison, I'd certainly hope it wouldn't be a standard most Americans aspire for.

[HoonDing]

Eastern European and Russian police are heavy-handed, sure, but they don't shoot unarmed suspects.

[Zoraptor]

the fact that you has used innuendo (legal term btw) to draw a correlation 'tween police in israel and missouri based on a week long visit by the retired police chief o' st. louis county is the straight-up conspiracy theory nonsense we has come to expect from the wackiest elements o' this board. 

 

Nah, I just pointed out a particular document to Orogun. I actually doubt the style I did it in matters in the slightest. Unfortunately, you leap to conclusions; then inevitably start tilting at the windmills your conclusion leaping has created. It's that conclusion leaping thing that has caused you the problems, in both cases.

[Malcador]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html

 

Well, either excessive force or a weak ammunition.

[Gromnir]

 

 

The comparison to Ferguson is fine. Same thought processes going on both places, many of the same actual processes too. Scarves/ shirts etc don't stop tear gas in Ferguson either, but there's plenty of people trying to use them as such etc.

 

As for Khdeir, well at least you've now stopped saying he was carrying a sling like it was anything other than an unsupported allegation- mission accomplished there- and gone all in on victim blaming without that added prop. Of course, there's no evidence that he was actively demonstrating either, but I think I'll let that go.

absolutely hilarious.

 

we can show examples o' excessive police violence from numerous european nations, particularly eastern european.

 

Am not sure comparing U.S. to ex-soviet block countries is a particularly good comparison, I'd certainly hope it wouldn't be a standard most Americans aspire for.

 

naughty.  in same paragraph we also noted we could pull examples o' police violence from australia and japan. am thinking it were kinda obvious that we were observing that one may find examples o' police violence anywhere. you also ignore where we mention in the same post where we observe that  if we had been a victim o' police excess in russia, china or north korea, we would be happy to simple get out of the country following such an incident.  am thinking we made kinda obvious that the point were that places such as russia is far worse than US.

 

"Nah, I just pointed out a particular document to Orogun. I actually doubt the style I did it in matters in the slightest."

 

is not really irony when is predictable. you now wanna claim coincidence in spite o' your sarcastic "I'm sure that's a coincidence," comment?  HI-larious. serious. keep going with this. is much entertaining.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 18, 2014 by Gromnir

[Monte Carlo]

I'm not there so I'm not going to armchair general. All I will say is that police dressing like soldiers, and acting like them, is always a slippery slope.

 

The whole thing has got a Bonfire of the Vanities feel to it. Hey, we're living in The Future, right?

[HoonDing]

I'm sure they'd like nothing better than fly in a B-52 and bomb the place off the map.

[Tsuga C]

QFT:  "I’m not sure what it is that reporters want. Do they want the police to protect them when they wander into a free fire zone? The police have a lot more important things to deal with than act as bodyguards for reporters. Do reporters think they should have free rein to run around a riot ignorantly, putting themselves and the police who try to assist them in danger?  The desire to cover the story under such trying circumstances is admirable, but it’s clear that there are many reporters in the streets who haven’t a clue what they’re doing.

 

That ignorance is going to get one of them killed unless they’re more careful."

 

http://t.co/WsekKxMnwp

[Hurlshort]

Why is there a free fire zone?  It's not a warzone.

[Gorgon]

Classes aren't supposed to exist in the US, but when 'the blacks' riot it's hard not to see it in those terms, that among other things the cops exist to protect the privileged from the disenfranchised. 

 

Guess what movie I just saw.