The Official Romance Thread

[dorkboy]

Fascinating.

[Gromnir]

Yay! Hack n Slash and ph47 l007 for teh w1n! No more of all this talky talky nonsense!

 

Dark Lord is goin' down!

 

http://youtu.be/6PQ6335puOc

 

That's what I'm talking about.

the conan quote works a bit better than the original attributed genghis khan. post conan movie, we gets revisionist quotes for genghis, but the lamb book quotes it thus:

 

"The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters." 

 

alternatively, the bit 'bout horses is given as "to take the finest of their horses between your legs" which just don't sound as right to the modern ear.

 

personally, we likes the movie conan version better, and thanks to internet revisionism, the genghis quote is now typical provided as closer to the conan version.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 26, 2014 by Gromnir

[PrimeJunta]

They are *embarrassing*, the whole stuff about *feelings* and even worse, the great evil that even surpasses Lovecraft's Great Old Ones by miles, the forbidden word that starts with 's' and ends with 'x' and has three letters. Writing about *that* is almost heresy on satanic level of course for the typical RPG writer.sidian again.

 

Just FYI, sex is central to the biggest questline in the Backer Beta.

[Leferd]

From the Kickstarter pitch:

 

"Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment."

 

Yep. Some folks sure got bamboozled with those lack of romances. Suckers.

 

"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women." Agreed. Conan quote > Genghis Khan.

 

^ Stark, laconic, brevity. Just like how we like gameplay and romances to play out in our simple hack n slash Obsidian RPGs!

[Longknife]

Ok, someone explain this to me:

 

 

Why the **** would you be head-over-heels insistent romance needs to be involved in the game? I'm not good at being anything but blunt, so I'll just say I find the concept absolutely cringeworthy. It's you - the player and a human being - attempting to romance a string of coding and AI. I could agree if someone made an argument that trying to romance someone is a form of quest and challenge that adds to the gameplay, yeah. I recall playing Harvest Moon 64 when I was a kid and that was like the big appeal of the game: working hard to try and woo and marry one of 5 girls. But that was a setting where it worked. That was a peaceful farm life where your only possible concerns could ever be doing your job, putting food on the table and establishing a family if you so choose.

   I can also understand that watching a romance unfold can be interesting. It's hard to name a TV show that doesn't have sexual tension between two characters as one of the sub-plots. I'm not saying romance is just dull or bland in general.

 

But this? You're an adventurer. You're traveling and engaging in combat nonstop, and you want a major focus of the game to be romance? Where your character works towards trying to sleep with some party member, because obviously that's the most important thing in life? GTFO.

 

 

The problem with romance is that even if done correctly, it's only viable for a good playthrough. Subsequent playthroughs are going to lack the "thrill of the chase" with you trying to figure out how to woo a certain character and you'll just know. It's just a string of AI, it'll always act the same and I fail to see how a romantic story holds any more value, significance or purpose than a story involving coming to terms with who one is, a personal struggle, or redemption (just a couple classic examples).

 

How would trying to woo someone hold more intellectual value than any of those? IT DOESN'T.  At it's best, romance is on par with the other storylines in a game. Not better, not worse, just a different flavor. And that's at BEST.

 

 

At worst? At worst it's the fans trying to force the developers to including something that has to be BEYOND awkward for the developers, because they're essentially writing a cheesy porno (just without the sex) while trying to think up a character and a relationship dynamic to the target demographic. Pro tip: the target demographic is typically teenage boys and teenage boys would stick their **** in keyholes ffs if they would fit. There's nothing intellectually stimulating or worthwhile about a romance catered to people who just figured out that junk on their crotch can do stuff and feel good doing it.

 

At WORST, you end up with blatantly, cringeworthy and obvious attempts to pander to and cater to that demographic, while ultimately failing HORRENDOUSLY because it's ****ing awkward for the developer: 

 

 

In short? Romance is a huge risky wildcard for -ANY- developer. It could function fine, or it could crash and burn and be a train wreck you can't look away from, dropping everyone's IQ scores and the game rating along with it.

 

 

 

"But Longknife! I can't POSSIBLY have a meaningful emotional reaction to anything that doesn't involve romantic feelings!! Romance is clearly the only meaningful emotion in life!"

 

 

Bull****:

 

 

 

 

There's tons of ways to involve emotion-evoking stories and plotlines that are x1000 times more meaningful for you as a person (aka they contain a lesson or thought you can carry with you and learn from) without resorting to the cop-out card that is romance. Romance, imo, seems like the cheapest form of involving emotionally-charged storylines, because it's essentially a way to flash cleavage at the player and suddenly peak his interest, no matter how bare-bones the storyline of the romantic relationship is.

 

 

And ffs there's even ways to provide a bit of sexual tension or flirting without it needing to be full-on romance. Go play New Vegas, go travel with Cass. The Courier and Cass definitely have "a thing" going on at times, but it's not so in-your-face that anyone who has no interest in romance feels awkward. I thought that implementation was perfection, and lo and behold I discovered the original plan was to make it possible to marry Cass via a drunken shotgun wedding, but that idea was scrapped and the remnants are nothing beyond overt flirting.

 

 

 

 

All in all, as I said I'm blunt and I just can't help but feel like the romance is being absolutely ridiculous, acting as if romance were the only reason to ever get involved in any game ever. Pro-tip: there are REAL women out there who can offer REAL, meaningful relationships, and yes there can be emotionally-charged storylines that aren't driven by sex. You want romance? Go play a waifu simulator; you can then play PoE when you actually want to...yknow, play a real game. As for this decision to skip that feature? Seems like the most reasonable decision in the world, and I've yet to hear a compelling argument for why the game will suffer without it.

[PrimeJunta]

I think I've been to that wedding. Never played Skyrim though.

Edited August 26, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Longknife]

I think I've been to that wedding. Never played Skyrim though.

 

 

Yknow I linked that vid as a pure example. Just got around to watching it and holy ****ing **** it's like a montage to all that's wrong with Skyrim. xD

 

Laughed so hard. Hopefully it doesn't distract from my overall point though.

[Blarghagh]

I don't understand when people say it's a lie to say it will be like Baldur's Gate if it doesn't have romances. Baldur's Gate 1 had no romances. None. Zero. In fact, the only Infinity Engine game that really had romances was Baldur's Gate 2, and it was a small part of an enormous game. That means that if you say it's inspired by Infinity Engine games, romance is one of the tiniest fractions of it.

 

As to romances being "discarded", they decided not to add romances because they did not have the resources. Not enough time, not enough writers budgeted. A good romance takes time because romances are difficult and Obsidian decided that if they couldn't do it right, they wouldn't do it. Nobody lied about anything, Obsidian has been upfront about this since the kickstarter. It's quite possible that a sequel with a bigger budget will have them.

[BruceVC]

I don't understand when people say it's a lie to say it will be like Baldur's Gate if it doesn't have romances. Baldur's Gate 1 had no romances. None. Zero. In fact, the only Infinity Engine game that really had romances was Baldur's Gate 2, and it was a small part of an enormous game. That means that if you say it's inspired by Infinity Engine games, romance is one of the tiniest fractions of it.

 

As to romances being "discarded", they decided not to add romances because they did not have the resources. Not enough time, not enough writers budgeted. A good romance takes time because romances are difficult and Obsidian decided that if they couldn't do it right, they wouldn't do it. Nobody lied about anything, Obsidian has been upfront about this since the kickstarter. It's quite possible that a sequel with a bigger budget will have them.

 

I have to correct you on something, the official announcement that there wont be Romance came months after the game was funded. Up to then we were still debating if Romance would be in. Most promancers, like me, assumed they would be in the game on some level

 

I am not saying we were mislead but next time it would probably be better to just say in the beginning of the KS funding phase  " there will be no Romance in PoE due to reason X or reason Y "

 

That way there will be less consternation and no surprises for any promancer

[Longknife]

 

I don't understand when people say it's a lie to say it will be like Baldur's Gate if it doesn't have romances. Baldur's Gate 1 had no romances. None. Zero. In fact, the only Infinity Engine game that really had romances was Baldur's Gate 2, and it was a small part of an enormous game. That means that if you say it's inspired by Infinity Engine games, romance is one of the tiniest fractions of it.

 

As to romances being "discarded", they decided not to add romances because they did not have the resources. Not enough time, not enough writers budgeted. A good romance takes time because romances are difficult and Obsidian decided that if they couldn't do it right, they wouldn't do it. Nobody lied about anything, Obsidian has been upfront about this since the kickstarter. It's quite possible that a sequel with a bigger budget will have them.

 

I have to correct you on something, the official announcement that there wont be Romance came months after the game was funded. Up to then we were still debating if Romance would be in. Most promancers, like me, assumed they would be in the game on some level

 

I am not saying we were mislead but next time it would probably be better to just say in the beginning of the KS funding phase  " there will be no Romance in PoE due to reason X or reason Y "

 

That way there will be less consternation and no surprises for any promancer

 

 

 

I specifically recall the word on the matter being "We will consider it," aka a resounding MAYBE, with little tidbits tossed in like "I'd have to convince Chris Avellone it's worth pursuing, and he hates writing romance."

 

Any fan of Obsidian would know this as common knowledge. Yes, you got a resounding "maybe," but you were definitely warned and informed that's one hell of a maybe.

 

And yes I read your post. I'm directing my comments here more at anyone in general rather than you yourself, as like you said, you don't feel mislead or anything.

[Mayama]

long text about romances in games

Well one thing was rather realistic in BG2, that wingless elf girl and jaheira bitching at each other and somehow it was all my fault in the end without doing anything... women...

Edited August 26, 2014 by Mayama

[Sylvanpyxie]

 

 

that wingless elf girl and jaheira bitching at each other and somehow it was all my fault in the end without doing anything... women...

Hey, at least you didn't have to put up with Anomen pretending that he cared.

[BruceVC]

 

 

I don't understand when people say it's a lie to say it will be like Baldur's Gate if it doesn't have romances. Baldur's Gate 1 had no romances. None. Zero. In fact, the only Infinity Engine game that really had romances was Baldur's Gate 2, and it was a small part of an enormous game. That means that if you say it's inspired by Infinity Engine games, romance is one of the tiniest fractions of it.

 

As to romances being "discarded", they decided not to add romances because they did not have the resources. Not enough time, not enough writers budgeted. A good romance takes time because romances are difficult and Obsidian decided that if they couldn't do it right, they wouldn't do it. Nobody lied about anything, Obsidian has been upfront about this since the kickstarter. It's quite possible that a sequel with a bigger budget will have them.

 

I have to correct you on something, the official announcement that there wont be Romance came months after the game was funded. Up to then we were still debating if Romance would be in. Most promancers, like me, assumed they would be in the game on some level

 

I am not saying we were mislead but next time it would probably be better to just say in the beginning of the KS funding phase  " there will be no Romance in PoE due to reason X or reason Y "

 

That way there will be less consternation and no surprises for any promancer

 

 

 

I specifically recall the word on the matter being "We will consider it," aka a resounding MAYBE, with little tidbits tossed in like "I'd have to convince Chris Avellone it's worth pursuing, and he hates writing romance."

 

Any fan of Obsidian would know this as common knowledge. Yes, you got a resounding "maybe," but you were definitely warned and informed that's one hell of a maybe.

 

And yes I read your post. I'm directing my comments here more at anyone in general rather than you yourself, as like you said, you don't feel mislead or anything

 

Yes I agree the initial stance from Obsidian around Romance was not positive  and I know that Chris doesn't like writing Romance. But why should you think his view on any topic be automatically considered the only valid one? I imagine the whole development team, long time Obsidian staff  and forum feedback also play an important part in what features should be in a game?

 

So I'm just emphasizing the fact that it was equivocal whether Romance would be in PoE until long after the game was funded.

 

And that's what some promancers are objecting to

[Longknife]

 

 

 

I don't understand when people say it's a lie to say it will be like Baldur's Gate if it doesn't have romances. Baldur's Gate 1 had no romances. None. Zero. In fact, the only Infinity Engine game that really had romances was Baldur's Gate 2, and it was a small part of an enormous game. That means that if you say it's inspired by Infinity Engine games, romance is one of the tiniest fractions of it.

 

As to romances being "discarded", they decided not to add romances because they did not have the resources. Not enough time, not enough writers budgeted. A good romance takes time because romances are difficult and Obsidian decided that if they couldn't do it right, they wouldn't do it. Nobody lied about anything, Obsidian has been upfront about this since the kickstarter. It's quite possible that a sequel with a bigger budget will have them.

 

I have to correct you on something, the official announcement that there wont be Romance came months after the game was funded. Up to then we were still debating if Romance would be in. Most promancers, like me, assumed they would be in the game on some level

 

I am not saying we were mislead but next time it would probably be better to just say in the beginning of the KS funding phase  " there will be no Romance in PoE due to reason X or reason Y "

 

That way there will be less consternation and no surprises for any promancer

 

 

 

I specifically recall the word on the matter being "We will consider it," aka a resounding MAYBE, with little tidbits tossed in like "I'd have to convince Chris Avellone it's worth pursuing, and he hates writing romance."

 

Any fan of Obsidian would know this as common knowledge. Yes, you got a resounding "maybe," but you were definitely warned and informed that's one hell of a maybe.

 

And yes I read your post. I'm directing my comments here more at anyone in general rather than you yourself, as like you said, you don't feel mislead or anything

 

Yes I agree the initial stance from Obsidian around Romance was not positive  and I know that Chris doesn't like writing Romance. But why should you think his view on any topic be automatically considered the only valid one?

 

 

 

....Because he's writing it. xD

 

It's simple: you cannot convince a murder mystery writer to write a fantasy novel. You cannot convince a poet to write science fiction. That's not how it works. Writers express themselves, that's what gives their work value. When you try to force someone to write about something they don't want to, the quality drops. I promise you forcing Chris to write romance would result in poor quality romance that no one would like or it'd be so taxing on him to polish it up that it'd eat time and resources from other areas.

 

Best thing you said imo is "next time be direct," to which I say, in their defense...? They just got funded above and beyond what they were expecting. FFS Chris met my request for him to sing Don't Stop Believin' with GETTING THE ENTIRE OBSIDIAN TEAM TO DO SO. They were probably exceptionally thankful, and therefore with good intent, Chris and co begrudgingly agreed to consider it as thanks, but ultimately opted against it.

[rustypup]

I am not saying we were mislead but next time it would probably be better to just say in the beginning of the KS funding phase  " there will be no Romance in PoE due to reason X or reason Y "

 

In all fairness, I'm not sure they imagined that it was even worth mentioning... :/

 

/ambivalentmancer

[Blarghagh]

 

I don't understand when people say it's a lie to say it will be like Baldur's Gate if it doesn't have romances. Baldur's Gate 1 had no romances. None. Zero. In fact, the only Infinity Engine game that really had romances was Baldur's Gate 2, and it was a small part of an enormous game. That means that if you say it's inspired by Infinity Engine games, romance is one of the tiniest fractions of it.

 

As to romances being "discarded", they decided not to add romances because they did not have the resources. Not enough time, not enough writers budgeted. A good romance takes time because romances are difficult and Obsidian decided that if they couldn't do it right, they wouldn't do it. Nobody lied about anything, Obsidian has been upfront about this since the kickstarter. It's quite possible that a sequel with a bigger budget will have them.

 

I have to correct you on something, the official announcement that there wont be Romance came months after the game was funded. Up to then we were still debating if Romance would be in. Most promancers, like me, assumed they would be in the game on some level

 

Is that so? I was under the impression they would not be there from the start. I wonder where I got that, then. Thanks for the correction.

[Gfted1]

So games in development should list what's not in the game? Kooky.

[BruceVC]

So games in development should list what's not in the game? Kooky.

 

No of course not that wouldn't be practical or reasonable

 

 

But on a controversial issue like Romance, where people admit supporting a game because they thought it would be in, it probably makes more sense to announce its inclusion or exclusion from the beginning ?

[Sylvanpyxie]

 

 

But on a controversial issue like Romance, where people admit supporting a game because they thought it would be in

Hindsight is 20/20. When they mentioned "memorable companions" I can't imagine they expected so many countless people to suddenly hop on the Elven Romance Love Train Trifecta.

[Blarghagh]

I'm not sure if Obsidian knew this was a controversial issue. I'm not sure if it IS a controversial issue. Both sides on this board seem to be a very vocal minority thus far. I've read every post in the recent romance threads as they are my responsibility and it's mostly the same people on both sides making the same points. Occassionally a new member comes in, makes one or two angry posts (on both sides) and stirs up the debate again, but it's not nearly as huge as people make it out to be.

[LeBurns]

The existence of this thread amuses me.  It was basically created so that the Devs never have to read it.  It also keeps all the new romance threads from clogging up the forum.  All the while, those wanting romance feel like they are getting their voice out.  Genius really.

 

Well there was a Golden Age of CRPG's and arguably the best game of that time was BG2.  I guess I really don't expect much from the new generation of CRPG's, DOS, PoE, etc.  They've updated the game-play and graphics, but are not putting much effort into the story and little depth of characters.  You are never going to feel like you did when Aerie was resolved to live without wings because of you.  You will never have that sick feeling in your stomach when Jaheira is kidnapped away.  You never have that emotional roller coaster ride of Viconia dealing with her feelings.  Because this generation of Devs just don't want to put the effort into it.

 

Well, whatever.  Perhaps if this generation of CRPG's takes off more effort will be put into them.  We'll see.

[Blarghagh]

As the person who instated the official romance thread, I can tell you that this was not a developer initiative and I have, in fact, not spoken to any devs about it. If anything, it makes it easier for devs to read as it is not all over the forum, hijacking other threads and not filled with nasty flamewars obscuring the intelligent discussion as the other threads were.

[Sylvanpyxie]

 

 

You are never going to feel like you did when Aerie was resolved to live without wings because of you.  You will never have that sick feeling in your stomach when Jaheira is kidnapped away.  You never have that emotional roller coaster ride of Viconia dealing with her feelings.

I will also never feel that unmistakable mix of irritation and revulsion caused by Anomen opening his mouth.

[PrimeJunta]

Well there was a Golden Age of CRPG's and arguably the best game of that time was BG2.  I guess I really don't expect much from the new generation of CRPG's, DOS, PoE, etc.  They've updated the game-play and graphics, but are not putting much effort into the story and little depth of characters.  You are never going to feel like you did when Aerie was resolved to live without wings because of you.  You will never have that sick feeling in your stomach when Jaheira is kidnapped away.  You never have that emotional roller coaster ride of Viconia dealing with her feelings.  Because this generation of Devs just don't want to put the effort into it.

 

LOLwut? Aerie and Jaheira as examples of 'deep' characters with sophisticated writing and emotional involvement?

 

If you had said Dak'kon, Fall-from-Grace, Kreia, or even Safiya, Visas, or Boone, but ... Aerie? Ms Mom-Of-Inventory-Baby? 

Edited August 26, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Blarghagh]

To be fair, Aerie had a lot of weak points in her writing, but there were also strong suits. Many detractors say the romances are "press buttons - get sex" minigames, so I always found it interesting that Aerie had a written moment where she could be pressured into it and would completely freak out about it afterwards, ending the romance. I liked the concept of her myself, if not the execution (romance =/= therapy).