To the Mysoginist Writer in Bioware

[Pidesco]

Well, this thread has gone downhill fast. And I thought the first post was kind of promising other than the obvious and casual racism in the "BLACK GUY" line.

 

I'd like to keep this thread open, as long the topic of discussion remains the purported misogyny of Bioware's romances. Make an effort, people.

[Qistina]

 

i laughed reading....

 

My country is multiracial, we have Malay, Chinese, Indian, indegenious, ect...if a girl/boy don't like any of the races to become her/his boyfriend/girlfriend, it is not racist. It's normal

 

Why would someone want to force someone to like a person by using racism issue? It doesn't work that way

 

Is it really normal that people don't date other races or is it the fact you live in a conservative country that says its normal and you have convinced yourself that's the way it is?

 

I'm not attacking you, I want to understand your perspective

 

Well, i am schooled with Malays, Chinese, Indian, Sikh, Sabahan, Sarawakian, Muslims, Christians, Buddhist,  Hindus...and what not...so it's normal

 

My country have 60% Muslim 40% non-Muslim, 55% Malays 45% non-Malays...so figure it out

 

We have mixed marriages as well non-mixed marriages. Racism is too little here, almost none, only political party love to play racist card sometimes, but the people don't

Edited July 2, 2014 by Qistina

[Pidesco]

https://www.google.com/search?q=racism+malaysia

[Qistina]

Like i said only political party love to play racism card sometimes, but the people are not. You have to come here and see your self how we live everyday

 

The problem of Malaysian politic is complicated, it is because of the definition of "Malaysia", this country only existed after WW2. And so we have a country called "malaysia" but what is Malaysia?

 

The Malays is the original population derived from the old Malay kingdoms, the non-malays was brought by British into Malaya as slave and workers in their estates. "Malaysia" is a federation consist of kingdoms of Malays combined. So as a country called "Malaysia" everyone are citizen of Malaysia, but reality is everyone are citizen of the kingdoms, "Malaysian" is just on paper

 

We have 9 kings....imagine that...and so politic is...no word to describe.

 

And so the non-Malays are actually citizen of "Malaysia", they are not realy the citizen of Malay Kingdoms...understand? It was the British set up making it like that. As "Malaysian" sure they should have all the right as the citizen the same with Malays, but the Malays are citizen of the Kings in the Kingdoms....that is what the non-Malays always forgot

 

Malaysia is a federation, and so we have central government and state governments, not all Malaysians today even realize this.

 

I don't know how long my country politic is like this...we'll see...

[Prince of Wales]

Is it really normal that people don't date other races or is it the fact you live in a conservative country that says its normal and you have convinced yourself that's the way it is?

By its very definition, the term "race" implies a number of shared physical characteristics. People are attracted (or not) to physical characteristics.

 

On the topic at hand, I already explained my stance. Some could use looking up misogyny in a dictionary.

 

PS: I hate this place's quoting system. 

[Erez]

_{Bioware are well known for their limited romance choices for girls.}

 

_{Dragon age - Choice between the wimpy, The bi}

_{Mass effect - Choice between the wimpy bi, the bird, the frog and normal guy who cheats on them.}

 

_{Creating an attractive choice for women isn't hard, all you have do is create a handsome and faithful alpha male(The Leader). In order to offer more options for girls who like to be the fixers you need to create a mysterious handsome guy with issues.(The Rebel).}

_{There is also the balanced guy, funny guy, who is the reliable interesting friend.}

_{In mass effect the bird was the funny guy, the frog was the rebel and Jacob was supposed to be the alpha male but turned out to be a beta male or less.}

 

_{Ps - I have nothing against Bi, I just know most women find men on men sex an unattractive trait.} 

[Amentep]

Ehh no? I dont agree with neither Bester or you. Whats problem that she want more than black guy to date? Compared to what guys get.

 

 

What do guys get that is somehow better, is the question that leaps to my mind?  If you eliminate the carry over romances (because we're talking ME3 only here) then it boils down to Ashley for MaleShep and Kaiden and Vega (via DLC) for FemShep.

 

Which clearly wasn't going to be able to please all players.

 

If you look at the series as a whole and still eliminate aliens and also eliminate bisexual romances (since the person in question didn't like that in Kaiden), FemShep gets Jacob and Vega and MaleShep gets Ashley, Miranda, Jack.

 

So you could argue as a series, if you eliminate aliens and bisexual romances, FemShep gets 2 choices and MaleShep gets 3 and that this is an intentional slight by Bioware (remember the claim is Bioware is misogynist).

 

If you start factoring in "looks", though, it becomes harder to argue without it being a simple sliding scale of personal taste.  A FemShep player not attracted to human "black men" would still have Vega in DLC; a MaleShep player not attracted to human "white women" would have no options.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

_{Creating an attractive choice for women isn't hard, all you have do is create a handsome and faithful alpha male(The Leader).}

 

_{Ps - I have nothing against Bi, I just know most women find men on men sex an unattractive trait.} 

 

Strangely enough, most women I know have an intense dislike for alpha-type guys and find men on men sex totally hawt.

 

I don't know what this says about the women I generally interact with.

 

Edit: OTOH, Bio also creates ****ty romances for men, so... hardly misogynistic?

Edited July 2, 2014 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Volourn]

"I just know most women"

 

 You just lost. Not all women are the same. They have different tastest, desire, outlooks, and opinions. Same with men. Stop stereotyping.Some women prefer the Angel type vampire and others prefer the Dracula type vampire. *shrug* Some women even start relationships with convicted rapists whoa re in prison!  Same with guys. Some guys like the young ladies some guys like the MILFS. Oh well.

[Meshugger]

I wonder when Bioware will write a male love interest has not one or a few, but *all* the following qualities:

 

1) White to the nordic, aryan ideal.

2) Heterosexual.

3) Calm, sharp and hates chit-chat about mundane things. Ignores the main character if she continues to talk about what he considers "nothing".

4) Utterly dominant in romance. He instigates it, not the main character. Has to be totally rejected immidiately if the main character has no interest.

5) Incredible warrior.

 

Basically a Brock Samson kinda guy.

[HoonDing]

Will he be voiced by Marc Meer?

[Bryy]

Ps - I have nothing against Bi, I just know most women find men on men sex an unattractive trait. 

Yup, homophobes exist. 

 

I don't see how that has anything to do with why bisexual romances in fiction are a bad thing.

[Volourn]

In fairness, I find man on man sex unattractive too. That doesn't make me a homophobe. L0L

 

For the record, I'm all for women on  woman sex though.. Just sayin'.

[sorophx]

[Gromnir]

strictly speaking, am not knowing of any me 3 romance potential character that is bisexual. some romance characters has their sexuality determined by the player's sexuality-- is not same as bi-sexual. jack is likely an exception. we didn't romance her, but am expecting that she tried to shock your character by telling him/her about her exploits. the blue squid woman were not strictly bisexual neither as she could procreate with even non-sexual creatures, but am admitting that such is a game-specific distinction. regardless, much like the other party npcs we don't recall liara (sp?) speaking or sharing the details o' any o' her other partners with you. the squid women is portrayed as libidinous, but the me 1 liara were purposeful written as kinda innocent and naive.  were she a "virgin"? we don't recall.

 

even if you think that it is okie dokie to dismiss a potential romance interest in real life or games because o' their bisexuality, there were, as far as we know (and again, am actual just guessing)only one such example in me3, and jack were only a romance option in me3 if you romanced her in me2, so it would be extreme hypocritical to complain 'bout her bisexuality in me3, yes? the bisexuality o' character in me 3 were, for the most part, a function of game mechanics. we know that ashley were willing to have sexual relations with a woman  if shep were a woman-- is not the same as bisexual. dismissing a romance option because o' a game mechanic that makes it possible for other players to do homosexual romance strikes us as homophobic... and in the alternative, sorta silly. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 2, 2014 by Gromnir

[Thuringwethil]

In fairness, I find man on man sex unattractive too. That doesn't make me a homophobe. L0L

Don't like it, you don't have to have it.  Thank goodness romances generally aren't mandatory to advance RPG plotlines

 

Sometimes I play out a romance plot, sometimes I don't, perhaps it has to do with me having a RL spouse waiting for me to log off the game but I'm generally not impressed with the romance plots I've come across in games.  Is it a function of me usually creating a female PC while writers spend more effort on the male PC/female NPC pairings?  Maybe, given the one such subplot I found most satisfying was Planescape:Torment's Platonic meeting of the minds of Nameless One and Fall-From-Grace. But my dear one tells me most of the romance options offered male PCs in D&Dish RPGs are just as awful as the meager fare offered my female PCs... I can only cringe at the realization that that creepy stalker Elanee was apparently meant as a romance option for some poor souls while hoping I'm not the only one who found hilarity in pursuing Casavir.... as a female orc. (As Gromnir says, HA! Good Fun!)

[Prince of Wales]

Don't like it, you don't have to have it.  Thank goodness romances generally aren't mandatory to advance RPG plotlines

 

Sometimes I play out a romance plot, sometimes I don't, perhaps it has to do with me having a RL spouse waiting for me to log off the game but I'm generally not impressed with the romance plots I've come across in games.  Is it a function of me usually creating a female PC while writers spend more effort on the male PC/female NPC pairings?  Maybe, given the one such subplot I found most satisfying was Planescape:Torment's Platonic meeting of the minds of Nameless One and Fall-From-Grace. But my dear one tells me most of the romance options offered male PCs in D&Dish RPGs are just as awful as the meager fare offered my female PCs... I can only cringe at the realization that that creepy stalker Elanee was apparently meant as a romance option for some poor souls while hoping I'm not the only one who found hilarity in pursuing Casavir.... as a female orc. (As Gromnir says, HA! Good Fun!)

I don't think whether you are "impressed" or not by your run of the mill romance plots has anything to do with your actual life situation. Stereotypes are mere generalizations, and those are rarely right. I doubt it has anything to do with who gets the most attention either. Quality is quite a subjective concept.

 

And that's the thing, right? While I find romances in any storytelling media to have an annoying tendency to fall into cheesiness, cliches, poor writing, and similar curses... Well, let's just say some people have taken quite a liking to cheese, hmm?

[Gromnir]

best game romance for us don't even have a close second: ravel puzzelwell & the nameless one. 

 

is not having cheesey and awkward sex scenes, and it is critical path, but ravel love for tno is the single most moving romance we can care to name from a crpg. in spite of the game's many flaws, ps:t is our favorite crpg and ravel is our favorite character. ultimately everything ravel did to and for the nameless one were done outta love. folks who suggest that Gromnir don't appreciate game romance is complete and entire wrong. our issue with bio romances is that they don't come anywhere close to matching ps:t efforts. is comic bad by comparison.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

I llke Ravel. She is one of my favorite characters ever but she did not love TNO. Unless you think love is about abusing the one you love. But, I don't blame Ravel because is an evil being who is acting in her nature - much like an abusive spouse who beats up their   significant other 'out of love'. LMAO

[Gromnir]

I llke Ravel. She is one of my favorite characters ever but she did not love TNO. Unless you think love is about abusing the one you love. But, I don't blame Ravel because is an evil being who is acting in her nature - much like an abusive spouse who beats up their   significant other 'out of love'. LMAO

complete miss the point o' ravel, but you can read as you wish. is a game, so your interpretation, no matter how wrong, is complete valid for you.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Prince of Wales]

best game romance for us don't even have a close second: ravel puzzelwell & the nameless one. 

 

is not having cheesey and awkward sex scenes, and it is critical path, but ravel love for tno is the single most moving romance we can care to name from a crpg. in spite of the game's many flaws, ps:t is our favorite crpg and ravel is our favorite character. ultimately everything ravel did to and for the nameless one were done outta love. folks who suggest that Gromnir don't appreciate game romance is complete and entire wrong. our issue with bio romances is that they don't come anywhere close to matching ps:t efforts. is comic bad by comparison.

 

HA! Good Fun!

That is the issue. Well written romances can be great, but most of the ones you find these days in any form of media are passable at best. It's hardly a video game only problem. You see it in novels, in movies, in TV shows, in comic books, and pretty much any and every storytelling medium...

I llke Ravel. She is one of my favorite characters ever but she did not love TNO. Unless you think love is about abusing the one you love. But, I don't blame Ravel because is an evil being who is acting in her nature - much like an abusive spouse who beats up their   significant other 'out of love'. LMAO

...and personally I believe this is one of the main reasons why. Love is awfully overrated. Or maybe it is better to say it is so often given strange definitions that come stuffed with cheese. Victorians weren't satisfied just with ruining fairies and fairy tales, no, they had to come up with this "romantic love" nonsense and curse their descendants to a hell of terrible storytelling. Oh, well.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Prince of Wales

[Volourn]

"complete miss the point o' ravel, but you can read as you wish. is a game, so your interpretation, no matter how wrong, is complete valid for you."
 

So, to you, love is about trying to murder  the one you claim to 'love'. It's been awhile but I distinctly remember Ravel trying to murder my TNO. that's not love. That will never be love.

[Prince of Wales]

"complete miss the point o' ravel, but you can read as you wish. is a game, so your interpretation, no matter how wrong, is complete valid for you."

 

So, to you, love is about trying to murder  the one you claim to 'love'. It's been awhile but I distinctly remember Ravel trying to murder my TNO. that's not love. That will never be love.

Love is a subjective concept. It is about whatever you want it to be. For me, it's just that section of the Venn diagram where friendship and sexuality overlap. No need to come up with grandiose definitions.

[Gromnir]

 

best game romance for us don't even have a close second: ravel puzzelwell & the nameless one. 

 

is not having cheesey and awkward sex scenes, and it is critical path, but ravel love for tno is the single most moving romance we can care to name from a crpg. in spite of the game's many flaws, ps:t is our favorite crpg and ravel is our favorite character. ultimately everything ravel did to and for the nameless one were done outta love. folks who suggest that Gromnir don't appreciate game romance is complete and entire wrong. our issue with bio romances is that they don't come anywhere close to matching ps:t efforts. is comic bad by comparison.

 

HA! Good Fun!

That is the issue. Well written romances can be great, but most of the ones you find these days in any form of media are passable at best. It's hardly a video game only problem. You see it in novels, in movies, in TV shows, in comic books, and pretty much any and every storytelling medium...

I llke Ravel. She is one of my favorite characters ever but she did not love TNO. Unless you think love is about abusing the one you love. But, I don't blame Ravel because is an evil being who is acting in her nature - much like an abusive spouse who beats up their   significant other 'out of love'. LMAO

...and personally I believe this is one of the main reasons why. Love is awfully overrated. Or maybe it is better to say it is so often given strange definitions that come stuffed with cheese. Victorians weren't satisfied just with ruining fairies and fairy tales, no, they had to come up with this "romantic love" nonsense and curse their descendants to a hell of terrible storytelling. Oh, well.

 

oh, there really ain't a question that ravel were romantic in love with tno. she tells you so when you meet here in the maze. becoming immortal were tno's idea, but as in the case o' fairytales, something went terribly wrong. ravel didn't want to, or could not bear keeping your immortality bound, and so the transcendent one and all those shadows is out making things miserable for tno. nevertheless, ravel is clear doing everything for love. she is ei-vene, and marta and mebbeth. when you return to sigil from your plane hopping, you may speak to mebbeth one last time. is one o' the few true poignant game encounters we can recollect. 

 

*shrug*

 

like or dislike romantic love. however you look at it, ravel were deep in love with tno, and she suffered much 'cause o' that love. 

 

is no wonder chrisA has managed to work her into every obsidian game since... though am not knowing about ap, ds3 or south park as we did not play those games. chrisA, for all the criticism we direct at him, did something wonderful with ravel, and is no surprise he has brought her along with him as he ha matured as a game developer. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Fearabbit]

is no wonder chrisA has managed to work her into every obsidian game since... though am not knowing about ap, ds3 or south park as we did not play those games. chrisA, for all the criticism we direct at him, did something wonderful with ravel, and is no surprise he has brought her along with him as he ha matured as a game developer. 

 

Now I'm curious - what do you mean by that? Which characters are modeled after Ravel, and what makes them tick?

I must confess that I never played PS:T long enough to encounter her. I've been meaning to give it a try but all this talk about how characters with high Wisdom and Intelligence are the only way to go kind of made me lose interest. (If someone tells you that there's so much to explore if you follow a very specific way of playing a game, you can become downright paranoid about missing vital information and find yourself stop playing. It's really a curse.)