"But it was made for us."

[Aqaba]

Personally, when I baked this game, I was hoping that the producers weren't goinig to listen to bakers at 100%. I mean where is the fun in a game you already know? when I order to the devs "you have to do this and that" where i can find something thrilling in the game? I prefer to wait and see a game made by profesionals

[neo6874]

I believe the argument is that if the reason why "boob plate" isn't used is because it is either unrealistic or because it is over-sexualized that missing the fact that the weight of most armor will compress/hide the shape of the bosom to the point - other than in the most busty of women - that the "profile" of the armor should be relatively indistinguishable from a guy wearing the same armor still misses realism and still emphasizes "sex appeal".

 

This is why Gromnir is comparing the mail to cloth, because the weight of the mail is being treated as if it is negligible (and thus, acts just like cloth would with respect to women's bosom).

This is true to a point, though you have to consider that underneath the steel, there is still a fair bit of padding. I imagine that even with the same measurements across the ribcage, a woman would find "men's" armor rather uncomfortable.

 

 

In case I didn't clarify enough -- in general, I would accept a small/moderate difference in the looks of men's and women's armors, if for nothing more than to be able to look at it and go "yup, I could wear that for 8 hours and adventure with some people".

 

I don't want to see the over the top armors that you usually see in "fantasy" for women, unless it's an obvious showpiece (e.g. half-plate worn OVER a dress while at court ... because they can).

Edited May 1, 2014 by neo6874

[Pipyui]

When we're criticising verisimilitude because of breast proportions under heavier material weights, I think we're taking criticism a little too extreme.  Of all the little inconsistent bends in physics, we're really choosing to crusade against this one in particular?

 

As for the exageration bit, I'd prefer to be able to distinguish my characters.  We could exagerate hips instead, but to make that notable at distance they would need to be really exagerated.  At what point is that any less objectivizing than showing boob contours?

[W.MacKinnon]

This is going to come across as sexist, but I'm totally for "boob-plate" and Luis Ruyo armour in general. The absence of sense in woman's armour has been around for decades. Don't ruin it for the rest of us. ;p

 

On a more serious note though, doesn't the scale, leather, etc armour's use 3d poly wrapping. By that the armour is fitted to the 3d image's contours, rather then say heavier armor that literally covers the entire body render. I know some people have been on about scale's show's that a woman has boobs! (Really are we ashamed of the woman's form now? This game is intended to be rated M right?) From a created 3d image standpoint, using male armour on a female render is going to cause clipping. Realistically a woman would have her breasts depressed by the weight sure, but a 3d render is weightless and instead we'd the image's breasts would clip/show through the armour.

 

A low cost saving to this would be to use the male body model on both renders - leading potentially to terrible woman walking/trotting/running animations. Really a woman does in fact walk differently to a man due to their hips.

 

Now where are the torches, I assume something else deserves to be chased right now like an undead Frankenstein.

[tajerio]

When we're criticising verisimilitude because of breast proportions under heavier material weights, I think we're taking criticism a little too extreme.  Of all the little inconsistent bends in physics, we're really choosing to crusade against this one in particular?

 

As for the exageration bit, I'd prefer to be able to distinguish my characters.  We could exagerate hips instead, but to make that notable at distance they would need to be really exagerated.  At what point is that any less objectivizing than showing boob contours?

 

I mean, it's not a huge deal for me, and if they'd have to do a lot of monkeying with the models to make it work I'd rather they left it the way it is.  It's not as if they're wearing chainmail bikinis, after all. 

[Mihura]

I agree that they should leave boob armor in hell. I would prefer only a slight difference in the torso, unless it is only clothes. A question for someone that knows, they didn't do the boob plate armor right?

I mean this is a great example.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Mihura

[Nonek]

One assumes that the enhanced bust on the scale mail is to help distinguish males and females, after all the figures on screen will probably be less than an inch tall, depending upon ones resolution of course.

 

Personally one is not upset, at least the young ladies in question have the ability to dress themselves appropriately for combat, a rare thing for female characters lately.

[Kjaamor]

The tangent this topic has gone on is indicative of exactly the sort of major debating issue the community has right now that no-one will care even slightly about when playing the game.

[Gromnir]

The tangent this topic has gone on is indicative of exactly the sort of major debating issue the community has right now that no-one will care even slightly about when playing the game.

disagree. the debates post release will include seeming minutiae with as much, and possibly greater, frequency. there will be no group-think following release that functionally discourages tangential issues into oblivion. history has shown that the reverse is true. this community will, at least temporarily, swell after release-- people who has never posted here will suddenly appear and they will be happy, angry, curious, confused, satisfied and disappointed. not only will old debates suddenly gain new life, but complete unexpected issues will sudden become the topic du jour. 

 

*shrug*

 

regardless, b00b plate was a big enough issue that developers changed female plate. b00b scale is a fail, if it is a fail, for the exact same reasons as plate. the excuses currently being offered for scale applied equal to plate.  this should not be a complex issue worth debating, but it is, and it will continue to be an issue in future games... and it will be an issue post release.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[anameforobsidian]

I don't mind it.  Yes it accentuates the form slightly more than "real" scale armor would, but it's not stupid.  I don't think you need perfect verisimilitude, and gender is an important part of many people's identities.  Anyways, there's probably a happy medium between Terry Pratchett's dwarves and Red Sonja.  

[teknoman2]

 

it is not the armor that is made with a boob section it is the way the armor will look when worn by a female character. try not to confuse reality with 3D models in a game. take the clothes of the girls in Gromnir's picture. you can see a bulge where the boobs are, but if the same clothes were worn by guys there would be no bulge. the clothes were not designed to have a bulge there, it forms because of the boobs. in a game you cant make clothes or flexible armors reshape based on the body of the wearer without employing costly physics simulation, so it is more effective to reshape a model manually to fit the various body types... especially when there is a limited number of character model shapes (thin male human or elf, fat male human or elf, thin female human or elf, fat female human or elf... see how 4 3D models are enough for the entire human and elven population of the game?)

I believe the argument is that if the reason why "boob plate" isn't used is because it is either unrealistic or because it is over-sexualized that missing the fact that the weight of most armor will compress/hide the shape of the bosom to the point - other than in the most busty of women - that the "profile" of the armor should be relatively indistinguishable from a guy wearing the same armor still misses realism and still emphasizes "sex appeal".

 

This is why Gromnir is comparing the mail to cloth, because the weight of the mail is being treated as if it is negligible (and thus, acts just like cloth would with respect to women's bosom).

 

and who tells us that the women do no wear an iron bra under the armor to avoid comression?

[nipsen]

and who tells us that the women do no wear an iron bra under the armor to avoid comression?

 

...because it would literally break anyone's back if they tried?

 

(Btw, for the record: I still suspect the boob-plate is some sort of cross-dressing fetish. And I still think it's perverse.)

[Ffordesoon]

The fact of the matter is that this game was backed by a sizable number of people, women included, who want to be able to differentiate male and female characters. The reasons for this are as varied as the backers themselves, but I'd imagine it's because most want to look like the badass _____ of their dreams, and many of those dreams are inevitably going to be gendered in some fashion. If you want to play a "badass warrior woman," you're probably not going to be happy when her character model looks the same as a dude's character model. It may be more realistic to give women sensible armors (and I suspect that will be the name of a mod that hits right after the nude mod and the boobplate mod), but this is just as much the player's fantasy as it is the developer's. There's no reason not to give him or her what he or she wants.

 

There is also a large group of backers who already believe that the current armor is has been neutered because of "political correctness," a straw devil that has gained a surprising amount of traction among reasonable people all across the political spectrum despite the fact that its pejorative connotation - and indeed, its use in serious American political discourse at all - is the brainchild of the American Right, and as such should be looked upon with the suspicion reserved for any phrase with an implicit agenda behind it. But that linguistic ship has sailed.

 

It is also worth noting that the tradition of boobplate in fantasy art is a long and storied one, with many beautiful pieces using boobplate, boobmail, boobscale, etc. While I personally don't give a rat's boiled **** about upholding that particular tradition, many backers do, and as this is a project steeped in nostalgia for the Old Days, tradition carries weight it might not otherwise carry. So I understand the desire for that "classic fantasy feel."

 

The point is, you've got two sizable groups of backers who gave money believing this game would be "for them." Then you've got a group of backers who believe the same, and are annoyed by things like "boobplate," which they see as traditions best worth forgetting.

 

The way Obsidian has handled this is characteristic of their management of this project all along. That is to say, they have chosen to pursue a compromise between classic fantasy feels and true verisimilitude. As such, we get women who are recognizably women even in armor, but they're wearing more than two cotton balls and a tea cosy.

[Lephys]

Like ^ says, it's not really physically possible to smith an armor like that.

You don't smith scale armor. You construct it from scales.

 

And it actually IS possible to smith boob plate, AND wear it. It's simply impractical for defensive reasons (because the whole armor is rigid, and the boob shapes create weapon-catching forms, rather than weapon-glancing/deflecting forms).

 

At worst, it would take a not-worth-it amount of time and effort to design the scale coat to fit like that. But, you never know. Just because historically, in reality, people only built scale armor in specific ways does not mean that the people of PoE don't have some other means of doing it, and/or some factors that serve as reason to actually fit the armor to females.

 

It's been pointed out in other threads about this, but the US military recently redesigned their standard-issue body armor specifically for female soldiers. Granted, it's a lot more flat, but it's also not scale armor. The point is, it was specifically designed to fit the female torso better, as opposed to the male torso. Females of all different sizes and proportions, even. There's a female armor of varying sizes, now, and a male armor of varying sizes.

 

Stop acting like it's impossible or utterly preposterous that female armor can or would in no way be treated any differently at all, ever, for any reason.

 

And @Gromnir,

 

I'm glad you love good fun and all, but you don't have to be rude. You gave your opinion, and I didn't peg you as some kind of imbecile for holding that opinion. I merely shared my own on the matter. Why is that my expectations are tainted and my opinion is somehow preposterous, but yours is fine and correct?

 

Also, that whole "I bet female gamers don't want to have their characters distinguished from male characters, and that armor design is offensive" line of thinking is awfully double-edged. To avoid gender discrimination in games is not to make sure the female form is never distinguished from the male form. Plenty of females want perfectly female characters. What, should they be offended by their own bodies if they don't go around dressing like men all day? I hardly think so.

 

Scale armor that subtly says "this torso has more frontal mass than this other torso" with like a 15% difference is hardly some kind of sexification of the female form. It's not forcibly accentuating the female form, it's simply not doing the opposite, either.

 

Maybe the character creation will allow for a few body shape options (for both genders and all races). Who knows. Simply having the admittedly more-flexible-than-other-armors armor generally fit the torso form is hardly insanity or derogatory to females.

[Pipyui]

I had left this page open on my computer, and when I returned to find my little sister sitting at it (not unprecedented), she says:

"Are you guys really trying to fool yourselves with three forum pages about boobs, and how absolutely not infatuated you are with them?"

 

Gave me a good chuckle, and I promised I'd share her sentiments.  Please don't throw anything particularly heavy.

[Lephys]

^ Ask her what she thinks about the scale armor concept screenshot,

[Gromnir]

 

And @Gromnir,

 

Also, that whole "I bet female gamers don't want to have their characters distinguished from male characters, and that armor design is offensive" line of thinking is awfully double-edged. To avoid gender discrimination in games is not to make sure the female form is never distinguished from the male form. Plenty of females want perfectly female characters. What, should they be offended by their own bodies if they don't go around dressing like men all day? I hardly think so.

 

Scale armor that subtly says "this torso has more frontal mass than this other torso" with like a 15% difference is hardly some kind of sexification of the female form. It's not forcibly accentuating the female form, it's simply not doing the opposite, either.

 

 

 

first, it is as if you don't even bother reading Gromnir posts, then get offended and claim we is insulting. please note that we addressed the issue regarding female gamers. we already stated that we fully expect that female gamers wouldn't wanna look like male counterparts, so is you trying to be an arse by throwing in,  "I bet female gamers don't want to have their characters distinguished from male characters, and that armor design is offensive"?  That is rude. put in quotes as if we said it too. we weren't treating you as an imbecile before, but we may needs to think of you far less kindly in light of recent posts... which brings us back to imbecile statements such as, "Scale armor that subtly says "this torso has more frontal mass than this other torso."" gonna really go with that? such nonsense is what started us down the line o' being increasingly dismissive o' your contributions to this thread. there ain't nothing subtle in the depicted b00b scale. again, the USC cheerleader sweaters is actually more subtle. am also not sure where you got 15%. some random number pulled out of thin air?  teknoman2's iron bra suggestion, loaded with cast iron bocce balls, could probable produce your "15%" swell, but it ain't subtle. it may seem subtle to you based on comparisons to other fantasy games. perhaps the scale o' the depiction makes more subtle... maybe. nevertheless, it ain't the least bit subtle.

 

regardless, attribute arguments to Gromnir that we didn't make and is actual contrary to what we said will fail to get us to be treating you with greater respect. put in quotes? *snort*  not too subtle for you?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 1, 2014 by Gromnir

[Lephys]

My bad, Gromnir. I fear I partially misunderstood your posts. I actually read that part about female gamers not wanting to be indistinguishable (read it as the opposite of the negative -- "distinguishable" instead of "INdistinguishable"). Human brain error, but still my bad.

 

Also, for the record, you do things your way, and I do things mine. I meant no disrespect with the quotes. I type things in quotes to paraphrase, to simply signify "this is a spoken sentence" rather than just part of the words in my post. If no one else sees it that way, maybe I need to not do that, since it's obviously ineffective.

 

As for not treating me like an imbecile, you may not have called me an imbecile, but I find it a bit unnecessary to peg my opinion and argument as so utterly and blatantly preposterous. I don't feel the need to say "Perhaps your expectations are tainted by extreme feminists who hate the female form?" or anything. I understand your difference of opinion, and am simply presenting what I can observe about the given situation from my own perspective, which is that, yes, it really isn't that abstracted/exaggerated, all things considered. Yes, real-life scale armor is decently rigid, but plenty of fantasy designs have fictional construction methods, resulting in more flexible scale armors. Look at the newest Thor films, for example. His arm coverings are scale armor, but they're quite fitting. He doesn't have any boobs, so it's not able sexualizing the armor. It's simply fictionally made of stronger metal scales, and apparently attached in a better/more flexible fashion than our historical scale armors. To say that individual pieces of metal can not possibly be attached together in a torso-covering fashion so as to allow enough pliability to produce an aesthetically distinct female torso form is really not very reasonable, to be honest.

 

I'm never going to try to get you to like the design, especially not just because I do or something. I don't even prefer this design over the other. I'm not insistent that there be female torso shapes in the armor. Just for the record. I simply see it as not anywhere close to extreme (a very mild exaggeration), and not really problematic for the game's design.

 

That's simply how I feel, and I don't feel like exaggerations such as that cheerleader attire is more subtle than this scale concept. I bet you we could scan a cheerleader into a 3D-modeling program, then compare the physical dimensions/proportions of the two models, right now, and the scale concept would mathematically be far less pronounced/distinguished from a male armor-wearing torso.

 

So, again, feel free to disagree and dislike it. But, I'm not going to feel like I have no basis for being okay with it, just as I wouldn't expect you to feel like there's absolutely no reason not to like it. I simply see no reason to act as though it's objectively preposterous. But, that's just me, I suppose.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Are there any women on this forum that are okay with the boob scale mail? Or is it just some guys who are posting they are okay with it. Some of the reasons have been laughable. eg. I need to have boob pixels on my armour so I can tell the difference between a guy and a girl.

[Sarex]

Are there any women on this forum that are okay with the boob scale mail? Or is it just some guys who are posting they are okay with it. Some of the reasons have been laughable. eg. I need to have boob pixels on my armour so I can tell the difference between a guy and a girl.

 

Does it matter if there are girls on this forum that are not ok with it?

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Does it matter if there are girls on this forum that are not ok with it?

 

It seems not for some people.

 

Apparently some gamers need visual aids like breasts to distinguish between their male and female party members, because as some people have said, 'I'd prefer to be able to distinguish my characters'.

 

The curser over the character is not enough to identify the party member, the skills they have when you do select that character, their clothes, their voices when you click on them. No, we need erect boobies to protrude out.

[Ffordesoon]

 

Does it matter if there are girls on this forum that are not ok with it?

 

 

It seems not for some people.

 

Apparently some gamers need visual aids like breasts to distinguish between their male and female party members, because as some people have said, 'I'd prefer to be able to distinguish my characters'.

 

The curser over the character is not enough to identify the party member, the skills they have when you do select that character, their clothes, their voices when you click on them. No, we need erect boobies to protrude out.

It's worth noting that, given ownership over this project, I would tell the people who want boob armor to go jump in a lake. My only point is that there are quite a lot of them.

[Shadenuat]

I backed PoE because I know for a fact that Obsidian can write great characters and clever stories, and are consistent in their focus on non linear storytelling and true to tabletop story and sometimes, gameplay design. Their only obligation is to continue to be good at what they have been always good at for years of their studio's existence.

 

If they finally manage to make a game with good combat it would be a plus of course.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Shadenuat

[teknoman2]

I backed PoE because I know for a fact that Obsidian can write great characters and clever stories, and are consistent in their focus on non linear storytelling and true to tabletop story and sometimes, gameplay design. Their only obligation is to continue to be good at what they have been always good at for years of their studio's existence.

 

If they finally manage to make a game with good combat it would be a plus of course.

trying to derail the boob talk?

having a scale mail that has a bulge in the chest area when worn by a woman, can hardly be called sexualization, and all in all is much more realistic that the Lineage armors.

besides i think many people here have a wrong idea on how heavy armors and weapons used to actually be... that is: lighter than you think, especially after the 15th cenruty when metalurgy was vastly improved and the thickness was reduced

[The Mist Devil]

First of all, I want to point something out. We did not buy "shares" of Obsidian or PoE. If it was the case, then those with gold badges and more would hold even more votes/voices overs a lot of those on the forums. So, that being said, we must now assume that all voices and votes are equals. But, at the same time, this means that we did help finance a project, thus, it is more similar to "bonds". Thus, we gave them a financial aid, we invested in them. In exchange, they have the obligation to pay us back, aka the Tier rewards. The interest, the coupon could be seen as us being able to -comment- on the developpment of the project.

 

Our voice is being heard. We have a word in it. Since KS, when did we all have a say on how a game should work? When could we express ourselves, with civility and with constructive criticism? This is an opportunity to create something, to be proud that you helped build something that many will enjoy. You need to see the bigger picture. This is not about instant gratification. It takes and will take time. It is not about you and you alone. It is about a community of thousands of players that will enjoy your game.

 

That also being said, look around, the feedbacks are everywhere. Yes, they do not directly comment in -your- topic that asked -zhe- question, but they probably read it four times before discussing it and wondering how does it fits in the big plan? We do not have the whole perspective of the project, we only have tidbits here and there. We do not see their reality. Being a project manager is no easy task. Even less when you have thousands of mini-boss that try to tell you what -they- think should be cool, because, you know, theya re all -experts- in your domain.

 

So, express yourselves with civility, offer constructive criticism (offers path of solutions, problem solving, well thought suggestions) and do not feed the troll.

Edited May 2, 2014 by The Mist Devil