"But it was made for us."

[Stun]

Boobplate. They showed concept art, outrage ensued, soon after a new version appeared. A direct result of backer feedback. You should be able to find the thread easily.

I can think of another example too.

 

Weapon and armor degradation. That one is a quite a glaring example since it's actually a mechanic that they put in, then announced it in an update, then removed it after feedback.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Stun

[anameforobsidian]

Links for the item degradation in particular.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64048-update-58-crafting-with-tim-cain/?p=1348405

 

I actually liked the idea of item degradation, but most commentors did not.

[Gromnir]

 

we get boobscale though, so all is right with the world... at least as long as we get boobchain too.

 

HA! Good Fun!

You feel the scale looks sexualized or do you object from a realism pov? I can see it now that you point it out but it didn't jump out at me on first glance.

 

well, it clear ain't realistic, so the question is why were it not made realistic? doesn't that bring us back to sexualized? sure, it ain't no chainmail bikini, but the b00bs is added. 

 

we ain't anal about realism. on the contrary, we thinks slavish devotion to realism in a crpg with combat is moronic. we would never use realism as an excuse to implement  feature X in favor of feature Y. that being said, am not seeing what makes b00b armour the default. developer gives b00bs unless people complain? that is kinda insulting. 'course the fact that only Gromnir mentioned suggests that the developers were right to assume b00bs is the choice until objected to.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Lephys]

well, it clear ain't realistic, so the question is why were it not made realistic? doesn't that bring us back to sexualized? sure, it ain't no chainmail bikini, but the b00bs is added. 

 

we ain't anal about realism. on the contrary, we thinks slavish devotion to realism in a crpg with combat is moronic. we would never use realism as an excuse to implement  feature X in favor of feature Y. that being said, am not seeing what makes b00b armour the default. developer gives b00bs unless people complain? that is kinda insulting. 'course the fact that only Gromnir mentioned suggests that the developers were right to assume b00bs is the choice until objected to.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Chesty lasses need damage mitigation, too. Don't be hatin'...

 

To be fair, the armor doesn't have "boobs," really, but just a slightly different general torso shape. It's hardly much different from a Roman-style breastplate with big pecs sculpted into it, worn by a dude with a rather girthsome chest region.

 

Out of all the various degrees/methods of sexualization of armor, I have to say that the merest hint that a woman's bosom dwells beneath a solid layer of metal armor is hardly bringing all the boys to the yard.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Lephys

[Gromnir]

 

well, it clear ain't realistic, so the question is why were it not made realistic? doesn't that bring us back to sexualized? sure, it ain't no chainmail bikini, but the b00bs is added. 

 

we ain't anal about realism. on the contrary, we thinks slavish devotion to realism in a crpg with combat is moronic. we would never use realism as an excuse to implement  feature X in favor of feature Y. that being said, am not seeing what makes b00b armour the default. developer gives b00bs unless people complain? that is kinda insulting. 'course the fact that only Gromnir mentioned suggests that the developers were right to assume b00bs is the choice until objected to.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Chesty lasses need damage mitigation, too. Don't be hatin'...

 

To be fair, the armor doesn't have "boobs," really, but just a slightly different general torso shape. It's hardly much different from a Roman-style breastplate with big pecs sculpted into it, worn by a dude with a rather girthsome chest region.

 

Out of all the various degrees/methods of sexualization of armor, I have to say that the merest hint that a woman's bosom dwells beneath a solid layer of metal armor is hardly bringing all the boys to the yard.

 

sorry, but you is nuts on this. put chainmail or scale on a woman, regardless o' the size o' her bosom, and the b00bs would disappear. flattened out to absolute nothingness. in cases of extreme endoument, we suppose you would gets a rather formless uniform bulge appearing somewhere mid-torso. we ain't talking 'bout a sculpted cuirass (which for obvious reasons would not have b00bs either.) we ain't talking 'bout costume armour. the scale depicted fits like a usc cheerleader's sweater. seriously. am knowing that some folks will argue anything. some folks will defend the resident developer no matter what. even so, you not have to be any kinda medieval/renaissance armour expert to see that the scale depicted is implausible... and is implausible to makes b00bs visible.

 

am not knowing why only Gromnir finds such stuff to be mildly distasteful and a bit insulting. go figure.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[constantine]

'But it was made for us' -- indeed, people. but also:

 

'trying to bring back the magic of the old games', 'PoE will be more IE-ish'

 

 

Some of you want to play a so very similar, enhanced Baldur's Gate ? Then go buy Beamdog's enhanced edition of the games.

 

 

PoE goal is to bring back to the market a product abandoned by recent gaming trends, all the while integrating this product to modern standards.

Enough crying over split milk- if PoE was to be exactly like BG it would fail. We are very forgiving to the games of our childhood, this does not mean they are the Holy Grail of video games.

 

Obsidian respects retro, while enhancing or adding elements that should be there. Giving their ear to our feedback all the while.

 

 

 

Anyone who is not pleased with the work that is being done here should think twice.

[Whitefox789]

Some of you want to play a so very similar, enhanced Baldur's Gate ? Then go buy Beamdog's enhanced edition of the games.

 

But the modded versions by the users are sooo much better than Beamdog's enhanced edition :D

 

 

Regarding to the topic at hand there has to be a balance game development wise, it can't be just something the developers would play; and it can't just be something the developers will cater towards their audience, seeing as how trying to cater to that audience will ultimately bring down the quality in the product. Since it is something the developers will try to develop based on a template versus making something that is truly unique and something that can stand on its own.

 

From the way Josh and his team have been handling PoE I believe they have struck that creative balance between developer and user fanbase.

 

*Edit*

 

Regarding the whole female breast thing in plated and scaled armor. Really? We have to get into that topic?

Edited May 1, 2014 by Whitefox789

[curryinahurry]

 

Boobplate. They showed concept art, outrage ensued, soon after a new version appeared. A direct result of backer feedback. You should be able to find the thread easily.

I can think of another example too.

 

Weapon and armor degradation. That one is a quite a glaring example since it's actually a mechanic that they put in, then announced it in an update, then removed it after feedback.

 

 

Also Intellect as the ability from which damage bonus is derived.  There are also several other moments I can think of over the past 18 months where developers solicited forum advice (usually in the form of a preference) after a discussion was started about a feature by someone who had concerns about implementation or appropriateness.  Its happening less now as the game is well on its way towards completion, but the Obsidian folks were pretty active in certain discussion during, and for several months after, the Kickstarter Campaign.  For the most part, I think they have handled this aspect of dealing with concerns and objections quite well.

[Lephys]

@ Gromnir,

 

I realize that, if it were fully realistic, you'd hardly ever be able to notice any kind of variance in torso-armor shape, statistically. However, the slight abstraction/exaggeration going on in PoE's armor design has got to be by far one of the most subtle uses of such aesthetic exaggeration in video gaming history.

 

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion (and in no way lessened by it), but I must share my own, being that "distateful" seems a pretty strong word for such a thing.

 

They'd probably all shave their heads, too, because they'd have lice, but I really don't mind that they allow us to choose longer hairs for our character model at character creation.

[Gromnir]

@ Gromnir,

 

I realize that, if it were fully realistic, you'd hardly ever be able to notice any kind of variance in torso-armor shape, statistically. However, the slight abstraction/exaggeration going on in PoE's armor design has got to be by far one of the most subtle uses of such aesthetic exaggeration in video gaming history.

 

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion (and in no way lessened by it), but I must share my own, being that "distateful" seems a pretty strong word for such a thing.

 

They'd probably all shave their heads, too, because they'd have lice, but I really don't mind that they allow us to choose longer hairs for our character model at character creation.

 

it is amusing when folks don't even realize they is indulging in hyperbole.  the poe scale armour, which is 'posedley made of strong and heavy metal capable o' stopping enemy weapons, is no less form-fitting than the above uniforms. if the complaint 'bout b00b plate were that it were ridiculous & implausible, then the scale should fail for same/similar reasons IF people is being honest. due to the... uh... scale o' the image, am thinking it is perhaps ez to ignore how fulsome the armour is.  then again,  perhaps your expectations has been tainted after years o' extreme violations o' physics and good taste... lineage 2 and aribeth from nwn has ruined you?  *shrug* am not suggesting that the poe scale armour is gratuitous or is appealing to the prurient interest of players, but the armour IS functional ridiculous and it is ridiculous to accommodate a female figure.  is insulting that we would give scale a pass where plate were subject of derision.

 

now, we gots no doubt that many female gamers is likely to be in favor o' poe b00b armour. after all, we suspect that the average woman gamer don't wanna looks indistinguishable from male counterparts.  nevertheless, if we is gonna complain 'bout full-coverage b00b plate, then pretending that the poe scale is significant less offensive is impossible.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[PrimeJunta]

Has something happened to FF? I was really excited about that, although their updates were always sporadic at best. Has it failed?

It didn't completely fail, since they did end up delivering something. That something, however, falls far short of what they intended and promised. Not to put too fine a point on it, it's a barely playable mess.

 

They've been commendably open about what went wrong in their last few updates. The short version is that they're total rookies in game development or software development in general and weren't capable of learning how to do it before their money ran out.

[teknoman2]

Gromnir, i understand your point of view, but you are not thinking this in terms of 3D modeling. the picture does not show a scale mail armor made to be worn by women, but how the armor will look when worn by a woman. armors in games are polygon models. these models are placed over the character model. if the same armor model is used for male and female characters, then the boobs of the female model will be passing through the model of the armor and it will look like the armor has boob holes.

Edited May 1, 2014 by teknoman2

[nipsen]

 

@ Gromnir,

 

I realize that, if it were fully realistic, you'd hardly ever be able to notice any kind of variance in torso-armor shape, statistically. However, the slight abstraction/exaggeration going on in PoE's armor design has got to be by far one of the most subtle uses of such aesthetic exaggeration in video gaming history.

 

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion (and in no way lessened by it), but I must share my own, being that "distateful" seems a pretty strong word for such a thing.

 

They'd probably all shave their heads, too, because they'd have lice, but I really don't mind that they allow us to choose longer hairs for our character model at character creation.

 

it is amusing when folks don't even realize they is indulging in hyperbole.  the poe scale armour, which is 'posedley made of strong and heavy metal capable o' stopping enemy weapons, is no less form-fitting than the above uniforms. if the complaint 'bout b00b plate were that it were ridiculous & implausible, then the scale should fail for same/similar reasons IF people is being honest. due to the... uh... scale o' the image, am thinking it is perhaps ez to ignore how fulsome the armour is.  then again,  perhaps your expectations has been tainted after years o' extreme violations o' physics and good taste... lineage 2 and aribeth from nwn has ruined you?  *shrug* am not suggesting that the poe scale armour is gratuitous or is appealing to the prurient interest of players, but the armour IS functional ridiculous and it is ridiculous to accommodate a female figure.  is insulting that we would give scale a pass where plate were subject of derision.

 

now, we gots no doubt that many female gamers is likely to be in favor o' poe b00b armour. after all, we suspect that the average woman gamer don't wanna looks indistinguishable from male counterparts.  nevertheless, if we is gonna complain 'bout full-coverage b00b plate, then pretending that the poe scale is significant less offensive is impossible.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

That was very eloquent, and I agree with everything you say. Nevertheless I will have to argue that: boobs. Furthermore: boobs.

 

Seriously, though. It's ridiculous. Why would you even let someone get away with this on the concept level? Like ^ says, it's not really physically possible to smith an armor like that. Or even wear one (without the girl having steel boobs, which would be a real disappointment anyway. Or maybe if she wore a copper frame corset, that would break her back if she's actually hit, or if she falls over).

 

So.. no to steel boobs. They suck.

[neo6874]

I would imagine that wearing "male" armour as a woman would at the very least be uncomfortable (similar to grabbing a shirt that turns out to be too small, even though the label indicates it should fit)

 

While this doesn't mean that armor has to be as over-sexualized (as in NWN, and most other games), it probably would mean that the upper torso section of "female" armor (regardless of type) would have some accommodation for the wearer's comfort.

 

Alternatively, they could be using it to show off a bit(see: King Henry VIII's armor)

[nipsen]

...King Henry had boobs?

[Gfted1]

...King Henry had boobs?

 

No, it had a codpiece:

 

[neo6874]

lol, no nipsen.

 

Gifted1 - your image is broken ... this one will work I think (hope)

 

Edited May 1, 2014 by neo6874

[nipsen]

Gonorrhea?

 

Anyway, just saying that the female warriors wearing plates, splint and chain mails (that actually are supposed to be worn in battle) might need another rendering pass before release.

 

Any amount of semi-transparent wizzard and cipher armor for the girls would be great, though. Same with sashes and waistband supports for monks and assassins, or other types of close quarter specialists. Huge boobs on chainmail, though - that's perverse.

[tajerio]

Got to agree with Gromnir on this one.  There's no reason for any major visible distinction to be made between male and female versions of metal armors, and I definitely find it a bit distasteful that a huge rack's built into the female scale.

[Amentep]

I think the only reason it exists is because the thought is players will want to distinguish their male avatars from their female avatars in the group and in isometric view hip size alone isn't going to do it (in cases where it too wouldn't be rendered virtually indistinguishable due to the armor).

Edited May 1, 2014 by Amentep

[MReed]

For the record (because its the polite thing to do, even if the thread has moved on):  I concede that I was in error when I stated that Obsidian was not integrating community feedback into their decisions making process.

 

On the current topic of the thread -- given the POV and size of characters in the screenshots that have been released to date... Doesn't this amount to arguing over a few dozen pixels (when breasts are visible at all, which will be no more than 50% of the time) should or shouldn't be there?  Not a big deal to me either way, obviously.

[teknoman2]

Got to agree with Gromnir on this one.  There's no reason for any major visible distinction to be made between male and female versions of metal armors, and I definitely find it a bit distasteful that a huge rack's built into the female scale.

it is not the armor that is made with a boob section it is the way the armor will look when worn by a female character. try not to confuse reality with 3D models in a game. take the clothes of the girls in Gromnir's picture. you can see a bulge where the boobs are, but if the same clothes were worn by guys there would be no bulge. the clothes were not designed to have a bulge there, it forms because of the boobs. in a game you cant make clothes or flexible armors reshape based on the body of the wearer without employing costly physics simulation, so it is more effective to reshape a model manually to fit the various body types... especially when there is a limited number of character model shapes (thin male human or elf, fat male human or elf, thin female human or elf, fat female human or elf... see how 4 3D models are enough for the entire human and elven population of the game?)

Edited May 1, 2014 by teknoman2

[nipsen]

Just to type down something sensible for once. We don't really know how they build their models or the armor on top of them, so this is a bit difficult to make up a cost/benefit argument from. But assume they are creating armor that exist from model references, that then are handcrafted to look more or less reasonable after they're worn by models of different heights and sizes. That it's similar to the backgrounds - that the models are real 3d models, just like the armor. But that they are pre-rendered and scaled for size, and not actually fitted to the exact model below. Likely there'd be classes, which is where female and male comes in as well.

 

In this case, making the models seem more reasonable and natural would mean the same or less work as before, and differentiating on female and male armor when not really needed would be more work. Reasonable things such as elven chain on elves and elven chain on humans looking different would have to be fixed anyway.

 

If they are creating a character creator where you are allowed to choose dimensions on the model, and the armor is just fitted on top of it -- that would still need some fixing if it should look reasonable. With measurements that break the armor joints, with fill-outs that look weird. Likely the aesthetic they're looking for wouldn't work with this approach without heavy hand-crafting anyway.

 

In either case it will take some effort to make the models look right. And it's a question of aesthetics.

 

So, I guess the problem would be, would anyone notice the designers' metal boob fetish? From looking at this, in low res, the answer is probably yes. You would have all kinds of neat flowing armor of all stripes and measurements -- and plate and chain for the girl warriors with boobs. Should it be like this? Do we enjoy this? I hereby invoke the following argument: boobs? I'm sure this discussion has been had before in every single fantasy d&d role-playing dungeon several times. And in games-media of different kinds. And forums all over the internet. I don't know, I don't really care. If people like it, go ahead and defy common sense and physics, it's a video game, so what.

 

But I really don't see how "just a little bit of bosom to differentiate the models" is some sort of compromise between fantasy and reality here. Heave on the boobs, by all means - I just don't think they should make an effort to create somewhat realistic looking armor - with dimensions on heavy plate that hides boobs measured in tonnage. Or make an extra effort to create armor that probably can't be worn without magic to suspend it. It's disbelief problem, in other words.

 

(And yes, it annoys me when I see "realistic" chest-plate designs like that in fantasy art as well. Freaky witch-crafted semi transparent half-chain peafowl plumage woven steel webs - fine. But a normal plate - with boobs - that's just idiotic.

 

Imo, fantasy should be kept classy, so everyone should have an obligation to have some imagination at least when breaking the laws of physics).

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Eh, to be honest, I can understand why they would put boob numbs in the armor. I'll agree with Gromnir that being ok with this but raging such a fuss over boobplate is silly. Both are unrealistic and both emphasize a woman's breasts.

 

Anyways, I'm very happy with what has been revealed about PoE so far. I was promised an isometric game with exploration, tactical combat, and great story telling and it seems that is what I'll be getting. The absence of hard counters, death spells, or healing and resurrection does not not bother me at all.

 

As far as codpieces go, Sex Machine from Dusk Till Dawn has the best by far.

[Amentep]

it is not the armor that is made with a boob section it is the way the armor will look when worn by a female character. try not to confuse reality with 3D models in a game. take the clothes of the girls in Gromnir's picture. you can see a bulge where the boobs are, but if the same clothes were worn by guys there would be no bulge. the clothes were not designed to have a bulge there, it forms because of the boobs. in a game you cant make clothes or flexible armors reshape based on the body of the wearer without employing costly physics simulation, so it is more effective to reshape a model manually to fit the various body types... especially when there is a limited number of character model shapes (thin male human or elf, fat male human or elf, thin female human or elf, fat female human or elf... see how 4 3D models are enough for the entire human and elven population of the game?)

I believe the argument is that if the reason why "boob plate" isn't used is because it is either unrealistic or because it is over-sexualized that missing the fact that the weight of most armor will compress/hide the shape of the bosom to the point - other than in the most busty of women - that the "profile" of the armor should be relatively indistinguishable from a guy wearing the same armor still misses realism and still emphasizes "sex appeal".

 

This is why Gromnir is comparing the mail to cloth, because the weight of the mail is being treated as if it is negligible (and thus, acts just like cloth would with respect to women's bosom).

Edited May 1, 2014 by Amentep