Global Implications of the Ukraine Crisis

[Valsuelm]

 

The modern federal government would no doubt want to try him in mostly secret though and claim 'classified' and 'national defense issues' on the majority of evidence submitted. I'm not sure they'd get away with it though if Snowden was here in the U.S. as the number of people here who think what Snowden did was not only not wrong but a morale imperative is not small, and if they saw Snowden get anything but a fair trial there would be political hell to pay if not more, which is something the more reasonable folks who want to burn Snowden at the stake would want to avoid, as they'd realize that Snowden's supporters would then want to burn them at the stake even more than they already want to.

 

Snowden not getting a fair trial or having some dubious meeting with death would serve to push a large number of U.S. citizens closer to the idea that their government is out of control, and push those already convinced it is out of control closer to the point they will take action.

 

Thanks. So are you saying that Snowden being tried, fairly or not, would actually be healthy for the US as a whole? That's an interesting (and hopeful!) idea, but I'm not sure I believe it. I haven't really followed the Manning case—did his conviction have much impact with the average Joe?

 

Also, I'm curious that you say that charges of treason against Snowden wouldn't really hold in a fair trial. Do you have any precedent you are basing this opinion on? I was under the impression that there is no whistleblower protection under US law. Is there something in the Constitution that could be used to leave him in the clear?

 

 

Yea, barring something unforeseen and highly unusual (which is always a possibility) I think that a Snowden trial would be a good thing for the U.S. fair or not. If it was unfair and he was railroaded it would serve to wake a lot more people up to how bad things are (a great many people have a positive opinion of Snowden did here, and not just the usual suspects.. ie: I know more people in the military that approve of what he did than don't (I know a lot of people in the military)), and if he actually got a fair trial (I'd be pleasantly surprised if he did) that would serve to show some real hope that getting out of the slow but steadily moving quagmire to a communist fascist police state we're in over here might actually be navigable within the system. It's doubtful we'll see Snowden ever stand trial though.

 

As for Manning. Though what he did is well known amongst many, he's not as well known as Snowden, in the U.S. or abroad. For those who've paid attention to his case, which is a sizable amount of people (and no doubt Snowden did), what's become of him is somewhat mysterious and definitely shady. Evidence suggests Manning has been put through hell and then some, very possibly tortured. A problem in the US that most won't recognize (most are entirely naive as to how the legal system works here) is that we allow the military to 'try it's own', and there's an entirely separate set of laws for those in the military than for everyone else when they go to trial. This has allowed the government to hide aspects of what's become of Manning.

 

Regardless, I just used Manning as one example of what can befall a whistle blower if the government gets ahold of them, there are others who have suffered what most would consider less harsh fates, but they've suffered nonetheless. Not a US citizen but Julian Assange's situation is of course married to Manning's case. Manning is just probably the most famous relatively recent example. Other recent examples in the US include Julia Davis, William Binney, Sibel Edmonds, and Russ Tice to name but a few. And then there's Michael Hastings, though his death occurred after Snowden fled.

 

In regards to if the charges of treason would hold in a fair trial or not, I don't know. I'd have to see all of the evidence and hear the defense. It's not a clear cut case by any means from what I've seen. If Snowden can make the case that he fled the US in order to make sure the evidence he had got out and/or that he fled in fear of his life, and the government can't prove Snowden aided foreign governments to the detriment of the people of the U.S. then yes, he could win his trial.

 

There are various whistle blower protection acts in the US, if one of them applies to Snowden I do not know, but I doubt one would be applied as most of the whistleblower acts I'm aware of are very flimsy protections by themselves at the end of the day.

 

Of paramount importance in regards to what Snowden did is this: Everyone in the military, all elected officials serving in the federal government, most if not all police in the US, most if not all elected officials serving in state and local governments, every judge in the US at the federal level, most if not all judges serving lower court levels, and a great many (but not all) federal employees all swear a legally binding oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution. Snowden revealed premeditated and rampant abuses of power in violation of the US Constitution on a number of levels (The 4th amendment violations probably being the biggest and of greatest concern) against the people of the US and much of the rest of the world (and not to say that the folks of the rest of the world don't matter, they do, but it's the violation against the US citizens that justifies what Snowden did), there is no lawful law that can prevent him from doing that. Not revealing that he knew these violations were going on would be treason in many people's eye, and a violation of his oath (if he took it, I don't think he did). Anon.

 

In a fair trial it would really come down to 'Can the prosecution prove that what Snowden did aided foreign governments to the detriment of the people of the US'. I've seen nothing that says he has, though I'm not saying he has not. I'd have to hear the governments case. So far all it's given us is hot air.

[Zoraptor]

They did in Kiev.

 

 

No they didn't! That's Russian propaganda!

 

No government would allow people to occupy their buildings, its a known fact per Obama PR mouthpiece (sheesh, at least I could remember Ari Fleischer et al's names, Obama's press secretaries are just so very bland and unmemorable), so obviously the Maidan types didn't occupy buildings.

 

Good thing I never got around to replacing my irony meter after Bruce broke it last time.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Zoraptor

[Valsuelm]

 

 

Hold hard there, buddy (Valsuelm). It's not 'Ze West' who have behaved in a polarised fashion. It's quite plain that 'Ze West' hadn't made any plans to act in teh event of a dramatic move West or East by the Ukraine.

 

Conversely Putin has laid claim to 'his' ethnic Russians. Whatever the **** that actually means. It's Russian troops motoring around the Crimea right now, not NATO.

 

You want 'not polarised' how about Ukrainians who - and I'm only guessing - don't want the future their country decided by a handful of armed yahoos?

 

I hope you're joking. Bad joke if you are. If you're not, add your name, along with Tagaziel's and JadedWolf's in bold next to BruceVC's in my post, as what I said went way over your head.

 

 

Add my name in bold?

 

Look, what you 'nerds' don't seem to realise is that you do not want a world in which your official servants make up their own minds unilaterally about what can and cannot be shared with everyone else.

 

The key thing is that I'm not anti-democratic. Democracy means no witch-burnings. It's rule of law. Not rule by the gun or the mob.

 

What you fools seem  to be in favour of is what I like to call the 'upskirt' version of democracy. It's the lazy, self-hating weirdo's idea of how government should work. democracy is hard work. You have to pay attention, not rely on white knights cantering around governmentg agencies feeding you what you need to know in the nick of time like a bloody fairy tale.

 

 

Yea... way over your head went what I said.

 

Also, check your etymology for 'democracy'. In actuality it does indeed mean 'rule by the mob'.

[Drowsy Emperor]

The Kiev junta has sent what units they could scrounge up, there are about ten people dead already. Civil war is just around the corner. No real Russian response so far but I find it hard to believe they're just going to stand by and do nothing.

[Mor]

What do people think about Ukrainian government using the military against *it's own people*?

Especially people who found Kiev was excessive against protesters may reply...

First you need to answer: where the right to protest ends and the government requirement to enforce order begins. Then you need to characterize the situation with something better than a loaded terminology such as military and the people.

 

I tend to prefer stability and gradual change over violent revolution, so usually I lean to the side of dialogue and the law, but my reaction depends on the situation. In this case the current situation in eastern Ukraine caused by Pro-Russian agitators, shouldn't be compared to Euromaiden protests which included two month of peaceful protest before the escalations, which IMO was caused by government mishandling of the situation ( just as in martial arts and war you need to understand when, how and where to apply force, a mistake that many police force learned the hard way "west" included )

 

Overall I was against Yanukovych government heavy handed tactics against the protesters, especially the rumored use of Titushkies and the live fire which in my view symbolized the complete loss of control, so I was very happy that the political parties from across the map realized the severity of the situation and united producing a solution to defuse the situation. With that said the protesters by no means were innocent, especially the hooligans that joined the fray near the end (I assume that Russia the self interested agitator bully special mention can go unsaid)

[obyknven]

Kramatorsk. General of SBU (Ukrainian KGB) trying justify actions of Ukrainian soldiers ( they shoot protesters, few people die )  to local citizens, but fail. In Western media these citizens of Eastern Ukraine portrayed as terrorists and Putin agents.

http://youtu.be/31oLk4M7L48

 

Kiev today. Field commanders of Maidan fighters fight each other. Struggle for power

http://youtu.be/uKL9KH7pi34

 

[JadedWolf]

Okay, it seems my mega-post got a bit ignored (which sucks, took a long time writing), but would still love an answer to it's most pressing question.

 

What do people think about Ukrainian government using the military against *it's own people*?

Especially people who found Kiev was excessive against protesters may reply...

 

I think it is counterproductive: they are playing right into Russia's hands.

 

I wish all parties could sit around a table and come to a diplomatic settlement, but neither side seems to be willing to give.

[Mor]

I wish all parties could sit around a table and come to a diplomatic settlement, but neither side seems to be willing to give.

You are under the wrong impression that Russia has any interest in deescalating the situation, as oppose to acting on their old threats, in pattern that we all seen but wanted to ignore.

[Valsuelm]

 

I wish all parties could sit around a table and come to a diplomatic settlement, but neither side seems to be willing to give.

You are under the wrong impression that Russia has any interest in deescalating the situation, as oppose to acting on their old threats, in pattern that we all seen but wanted to ignore.

 

 

Yes, Russia wants what is arguably it's most important geographic neighbor to remain unstable and plunge into civil war. They also want World War 3 as fast as possible. They are doing everything in their power to escalate the situation. Putin is a card carrying demon from the 7th level of hell. Everything he and Russia does is pure evil. It is clear to me now. The end times are nigh!

 

You, BruceVC, Tagaziel, et al have shown me the light!

[Hassat Hunter]

First you need to answer: where the right to protest ends and the government requirement to enforce order begins. Then you need to characterize the situation with something better than a loaded terminology such as military and the people.

That indeed, is a difficult question. However, if there was any attempt made by Kiev at all to talk with the demonstrators in the East, I must have missed it.

They skipped the talks, and went straight to dismissing them all as terrorists and russian instigators, and responded with threats and military action.

For a government that came to power with protest, that strikes me as very odd. You would think the protesters themselves would be sympathetic to other people doing the same as them. But apparently the instant they took power all protest is disbanded and fired upon.

That doesn't strike *you* as odd?

All the infighting in the government and many pictures coming out of them actually hand to hand fighting with each other isn't really something that would make a population less worried about it's command either.

In this case the current situation in eastern Ukraine caused by Pro-Russian agitators, shouldn't be compared to Euromaiden protests which included two month of peaceful protest before the escalations, which IMO was caused by government mishandling of the situation

And the current government is acting swell, doesn't it?

Euromaiden was given months, they get power, they violently put down all resistance and protest within a week or 2?

Sounds to me the cure ended up worse than the disease, as much as you can hide between 'it's all Russians' you want.

After all I can easily say the same, Euromaiden was caused by Pro-EU agitators... and I would be right to boot.

Overall I was against Yanukovych government heavy handed tactics against the protesters, especially the rumored use of Titushkies and the live fire which in my view symbolized the complete loss of control, so I was very happy that the political parties from across the map realized the severity of the situation and united producing a solution to defuse the situation.

Agreed.

Yet, it's very troubling to me the current government goes quite beyond that with such ease, and the entire world is silent.

Russia is worried about the situation, tries to appoint that in the UN, and the Western World just hones it away.

"It's all Russia's fault... Russia should move away. Russia, open your borders for Ukraine tanks!" and they try to open dialogue, and well, that's the response. Like they HONESTLY think Russia is just going to keep borders unprotected with an unguided missile next to it.

I know they're political hounddogs, so they probably just want it to be ****, but my fear is some are actually tht naieve to think like that honestly. And instead of thinking rational (duh, that they place troops there) they go in Cold War "Russia is evil. They must do it cause evil!" ideology.

 

And it's helping no-one.

With that said the protesters by no means were innocent, especially the hooligans that joined the fray near the end (I assume that Russia the self interested agitator bully special mention can go unsaid)

And that's the saddest part. That's the current government.

[BruceVC]

They did in Kiev.

 

 

 

They did in Kiev.

 

 

No they didn't! That's Russian propaganda!

 

No government would allow people to occupy their buildings, its a known fact per Obama PR mouthpiece (sheesh, at least I could remember Ari Fleischer et al's names, Obama's press secretaries are just so very bland and unmemorable), so obviously the Maidan types didn't occupy buildings.

 

Good thing I never got around to replacing my irony meter after Bruce broke it last time.

 

 

 

Okay I put my foot in that one, I needed time to consider what you had said Hassat. AlI I  can say is are you sure the original protesters in Kiev were as well armed as the Russian backed people who are occupying buildings in eastern Ukraine? Also did they occupy as many buildings. I was under the impression the original protests in Kiev were mostly on the streets and only a one or two buildings were occupied?

Edited April 16, 2014 by BruceVC

[Tagaziel]

 

Okay I put my foot in that one, I needed time to consider what you had said Hassat. AlI I  can say is are you sure the original protesters in Kiev were as well armed as the Russian backed people who are occupying buildings in eastern Ukraine? Also did they occupy as many buildings. I was under the impression the original protests in Kiev were mostly on the streets and only a one or two buildings were occupied?

The difference is that the Euromaidan was spontaneous, decentralized, and uncontrolled. It was an actual protest.

 

If you compare footage from the Euromaidan with the footage from Eastern Ukraine, you'll notice distinct differences, like the fact that the instigators of the protests are armed with Russian military-grade weapons, gear, and don't hesitate to open fire. Euromaidan protesters were not armed with these. You know who was? The Russian special forces that invaded Crimea and seized it. It's precisely the same M.O. and likely the same units.

 

Basically, trying to equate Euromaidan with separatist attempts instigated by Russian special forces is oby-level propagandism.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Okay I put my foot in that one, I needed time to consider what you had said Hassat. AlI I  can say is are you sure the original protesters in Kiev were as well armed as the Russian backed people who are occupying buildings in eastern Ukraine? Also did they occupy as many buildings. I was under the impression the original protests in Kiev were mostly on the streets and only a one or two buildings were occupied?

The difference is that the Euromaidan was spontaneous, decentralized, and uncontrolled. It was an actual protest.

 

If you compare footage from the Euromaidan with the footage from Eastern Ukraine, you'll notice distinct differences, like the fact that the instigators of the protests are armed with Russian military-grade weapons, gear, and don't hesitate to open fire. Euromaidan protesters were not armed with these. You know who was? The Russian special forces that invaded Crimea and seized it. It's precisely the same M.O. and likely the same units.

 

Basically, trying to equate Euromaidan with separatist attempts instigated by Russian special forces is oby-level propagandism.

 

 

Good response and relevant points, but I believe that the comment now will be " no the Euromaiden protests were planned and supported directly by the EU "

 

Also the original protests were also about the removal or the objection to Yanukovych. They weren't about the breaking up of Ukraine to suit the geographical or political aspirations of a foreign power. The EU never wanted Ukraine to be annexed as part of it.

Edited April 16, 2014 by BruceVC

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

 

So you were born in 13th century England, then? What's your secret, Pilates?

 

 

P.S. No, really. What's your secret?

 

 

If it ever comes to pass that the sacred poem to which both heaven and earth have set their hand, so as to have made me lean for many years, should overcome the cruelty that bars me from the fair sheepfold where I slept as a lamb, an enemy to the wolves that make war on it, with another voice now and other fleece, I shall return a herald of difficult truths.

 

Sire, you who dub yourself TooLeetForYou, have a journey of self-examination before you. It is full of hardships, where your perceived comforts of bombastic digital self-assertion gives way to humility and the ever so menacing contingencies of life and death. Or more succinctly put: You have a real life out there, live it for quite a while, and come back when you have some wisdom and patina to show for yourself.

 

***

No worries, mate. I'm trolling a bit, but there are grains of truth in it as well, and hopefully most of you guys recognize it for what it is.

[obyknven]

http://youtu.be/TzyL9OfPsFo

 

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

So you were born in 13th century England, then? What's your secret, Pilates?

 

 

P.S. No, really. What's your secret?

 

 

If it ever comes to pass that the sacred poem to which both heaven and earth have set their hand, so as to have made me lean for many years, should overcome the cruelty that bars me from the fair sheepfold where I slept as a lamb, an enemy to the wolves that make war on it, with another voice now and other fleece, I shall return a herald of difficult truths.

 

Sire, you who dub yourself TooLeetForYou, have a journey of self-examination before you. It is full of hardships, where your perceived comforts of bombastic digital self-assertion gives way to humility and the ever so menacing contingencies of life and death. Or more succinctly put: You have a real life out there, live it for quite a while, and come back when you have some wisdom and patina to show for yourself.

 

***

No worries, mate. I'm trolling a bit, but there are grains of truth in it as well, and hopefully most of you guys recognize it for what it is.

 

 

I thought what you said made perfect sense and wasn't a trolling attempt by any regards

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

The difference is that the Euromaidan was spontaneous, decentralized, and uncontrolled. It was an actual protest.

 

 

 

Unlike you some of us here live in countries where the so called "color revolutions" happened. Unlike you, we witnessed these "protests" first hand. The only thing that's spontaneous is the desire of the people to climb out of economic misery, everything else is paid for and organized from a foreign country for their domestic pawns. We know who the people who organized them are and what their agenda was and how they did it, so please, don't insult our intelligence. 

Edited April 16, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Sarex]

Unlike you some of us here live in countries where the so called "color revolutions" happened. Unlike you, we witnessed these "protests" first hand. The only thing that's spontaneous is the desire of the people to climb out of economic misery, everything else is paid for and organized from a foreign country for their domestic pawns. We know who the people who organized them are and what their agenda was and how they did it, so please, don't insult our intelligence. 

 

And if you want proof, all you have to do is read the recently declassified Clinton documents.

[obyknven]

Kramatorsk. Units of Ukrainian army join to people of Eastern Ukraine. They not obey to criminal orders of Kievan junta.

http://youtu.be/pGW_wXRdDMY

http://vk.com/antimaydan?z=video9679855_168349677

Situation in Ukraine so similar to failed 1991 Soviet coup d'état attempt, when SCSE send troops to suppress  people protests.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt

Expect a soon failure of Kievan junta by same reasons. US government and CIA are losers .

[HoonDing]

Donetsk Republic is less of a mouthful than Dnipropetroviskeskikaya Republic at least.

[obyknven]

Several sources have commented how 20 Greystone members have gone missing in Ukraine. It was only a matter of time, really. Brenann's visit may have something to do with that as well.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article183269.html

http://forum-msk.org/material/power/10316669.html

 

CIA director in Kiev searching for missing mercenaries

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov revealed that CIA director John Brennan was in Kiev last weekend. One of his advisors told the newspaper Vzgliad that Brennan had not come to oversee the "anti-terrorist" operations conducted by the Ukrainian authorities, but to seek information and rescue twenty Greystone Ltd mercenaries of whom there has been no news.

 

Last attempt of US invade into Russia  ended by total failure. US troops flee like rabbits.  After this US president write in own journal how bad been decision  about start intervention into Russia. But times passed - modern Muricans forgot this and repeat mistakes of ancestors.

[obyknven]

Kramatorsk. Units of Ukrainian army join to people of Eastern Ukraine. They not obey to criminal orders of Kievan junta.

http://youtu.be/pGW_wXRdDMY

http://vk.com/antimaydan?z=video9679855_168349677

Situation in Ukraine so similar to failed 1991 Soviet coup d'état attempt, when SCSE send troops to suppress  people protests.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Soviet_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt

Expect a soon failure of Kievan junta by same reasons. US government and CIA are losers .

Exelent example of lie in Western media. Ukrainian marines here become....  pro-Russian forces on ride on an armoured vehicles seized from the Ukrainian army!

 

Pro-Russian armed separatists have seized five armoured personnel carriers and a tank from the Ukrainian army, which they then drove in a victory lap through the centre of Kramatorsk in Ukraine's east, where government forces are attempting to wrest back control of the city.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/pro-russian-separatists-seize-ukrainian-armoured-vehicles

Just Ministry of Truth from Orwel's 1984. 

[213374U]

 

 

So you were born in 13th century England, then? What's your secret, Pilates?

 

 

P.S. No, really. What's your secret?

 

 

If it ever comes to pass that the sacred poem to which both heaven and earth have set their hand, so as to have made me lean for many years, should overcome the cruelty that bars me from the fair sheepfold where I slept as a lamb, an enemy to the wolves that make war on it, with another voice now and other fleece, I shall return a herald of difficult truths.

 

Sire, you who dub yourself TooLeetForYou, have a journey of self-examination before you. It is full of hardships, where your perceived comforts of bombastic digital self-assertion gives way to humility and the ever so menacing contingencies of life and death. Or more succinctly put: You have a real life out there, live it for quite a while, and come back when you have some wisdom and patina to show for yourself.

 

***

No worries, mate. I'm trolling a bit, but there are grains of truth in it as well, and hopefully most of you guys recognize it for what it is.

 

 

>Implying that there is an end point or arbitrary threshold in the cycle of learning and self discovery and that one has reached it

>Poking fun at someone for naming their internet persona "too elite for you"

 

This is what happened when I asked Vegeta to measure the irony:

 

 

As for the trolling, welcome. Trolling is to WoT what dressing is to salad. Enjoy your stay.

[obyknven]

Kramatorsk. Punishers against terrorists people of Ukraine.

http://youtu.be/MqTnlEEj9TA

[Hassat Hunter]

Well, 1 city vs. various towns make somewhat a difference.

What do you think is easier to take by force? Some local sheriff station or the White House?

 

And there were plenty of armed 'protestors' in Kiev. Armories got looted and distributed, giving them even a bigger arsenal. All Russian weapons btw, since that's the ordenance of the Ukrainian army/police force.