Pillars of Eternity – Partnership FAQ for Backers

[C2B]

What's that PE Watcher badge? First I see it... post-KS backer?

Means he spent $5000+ on the game. So, the concerns may lay deeper here.

Edited March 19, 2014 by C2B

[Hassat Hunter]

Wow, in that case, hats off, mr. stryck9.

[Bryy]

I asked for clarification, I fail to see how that is outrageous.

Because the issue has been clarified ten times over.

 

Continuing on just makes you look like you want to throw a hissy fit because of some percieved slight to gaming.

[MithrilSilverAus]

 

What is Paradox getting out of this?

A cut from the sales after release of course.

 

Would have realistically thought a cut from sales of physical copies instore since thats what they are doing the marketing and distribution for....

[Bryy]

Wow, in that case, hats off, mr. stryck9.

Yeah, that's the first Watcher I've ever seen on the forums.

[Valsuelm]

 

Means he spent $5000+ on the game. So, the concerns may lay deeper here.

 

 

Is there a badge key anywhere that explains what all the badges mean? I've missed it if there is.

 

and /salute stryck9 and any other lurking watchers.

[Korron]

Are you guys legally allowed to disclose our personal information to another business after we backed not knowing this agreement? Is there a KS policy on this? Also, what specifically are you authorizing paradox to do with our personal information? If you haven't discussed it I'd be much happier if you did and made it clear to us before giving them any information. I don't want paradox keeping my information, and I don't want my personal information used for anything but sending my physical goods. I disclosed my information to your company, and I need a concise statement on how that information will be managed by paradox.

 

Also you guys get regular coverage on a lot of big gaming sites frequently. Why do you need paradox for marketing? Are they going to drop a few million on tv commercials and internet ads? When have old school RPGs ever conveyed their appeal through short video clips?

Edited March 20, 2014 by Korron

[Allvaldr]

That's all well and good, but you also did business with backers.  It's chump change in the world of publishers, but its neither insignificant to both the individual backers and obsidian as a company.  Many of the backers (including me) were excited for the possibility of a new, more transparent, business model as well as the game itself.  It's wrong to have two types of transparency for two different groups that are both providing financial and advertising services.

 

[...]

 

It is not a sign of entitlement to ask merely that you describe business deals that do affect the outcome of this game development process.  So now, I'm politely, without any sign of hyperbolic despair or anger asking "what does Paradox get out of the deal?"  It very well could have been a good decision, but I'd like to know what the decision was.  That's just basic politeness.

 

I disagree with you. You work in any kind of serious business irl? It doesn't matter that the backers could be considered business partners as well (besides, legally they aren't but that's a different conversation). When I at my company do business with both parties A and parties B, I don't share the rates, revenue percentages, quotes, etc from party A with party B either. That is considered legally confidential information and sharing this could have serious legal consequences.

 

Anyway. When I saw the news of the partnership and read the details I was quite excited. Came as a serious surprise the unreasonable storm in a glass of water that seemed to have started on this forum over it. >_>

[Elerond]

 

 

Means he spent $5000+ on the game. So, the concerns may lay deeper here.

 

 

Is there a badge key anywhere that explains what all the badges mean? I've missed it if there is.

 

and /salute stryck9 and any other lurking watchers.

 

 

People who's reward was $5 or more during kickstarter campaign got green K badge

People who's reward was $25 ($20 if you were early bird) or more got bronze eternity badge

People who's reward was $100 or more got silver vip badge instead of bronze badge

People who's reward was $500 or more got golden badge instead of silver badge

People who's reward was $5000 or more got watcher badge instead of golden badge.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Elerond

[Bryy]

There are 13 Watchers that currently exist in the world.

 

13 tribes of Kobol.

 

Coincidence?

[Lephys]

@Bryy Er, ok, that's not helping your argument,  partners make joint decisions... Do you want a publisher "partner" making joint decisions about a game you funded?  Asking for clarification, especially when it comes to a nebulous term like marketing seems fair in my book...

Erm... the worst thing someone in charge of marketing can do is give everyone a horrible impression of your game and/or flat-out lie about its design.

 

The people who make commercials for Ford don't get to tell Ford engineers how to design their vehicles and products.

 

"Nebulous term like marketing," he says...

 

Silly goose.

[BAdler]

Are you guys legally allowed to disclose our personal information to another business after we backed not knowing this agreement? Is there a KS policy on this? Also, what specifically are you authorizing paradox to do with our personal information? If you haven't discussed it I'd be much happier if you did and made it clear to us before giving them any information. I don't want paradox keeping my information, and I don't want my personal information used for anything but sending my physical goods. I disclosed my information to your company, and I need a concise statement on how that information will be managed by paradox.

 

Also you guys get regular coverage on a lot of big gaming sites frequently. Why do you need paradox for marketing? Are they going to drop a few million on tv commercials and internet ads? When have old school RPGs ever conveyed their appeal through short video clips?

The only thing we are going to give out to Paradox is information so they can fulfill your physical orders. It will only be used for that purpose and nothing else. We are very protective over the information that backers gave to us.

 

Additional marketing will mean increased sales. While it is true that Pillars of Eternity can generate some of its own hype, Paradox will help us increase that. Trust me, they have already shown me personally that they have a good process for doing so.

[Skarn]

 

With Paradox on board, how much input will they have into the EULA for PoE?

 

I normally refuse to purchase Paradox games because their EULA terms give them the ability to summon me across an ocean to appear in a court that normally would not have any jurisdiction over me.  Never going to happen (for both financial and other reasons), thus I have games that I purchased in bundles sitting in my Steam account (don't get me started on them, either) that will never be played because of their EULAs.  Essentially, Paradox titles are wasted money for me.

 

IANAL

 

But, I'm pretty sure you're mistaken on this front. I've just read their EULA and there are some issues with it...

 

First, they can't "summon" you... You can just choose not to go. Contracts are governed by Civil Law, not criminal law, if you were worried about extradition. You'd have to break a criminal law in their country and extradition would involve lawyers and a court here first.

 

Second, it's a very one-sided contract and judges tend to look down on that kind of agreement. They ask for idemnity from you for any and all civil action and at the same time state that they can sue you and, if defeated, have the right to sue on another point, perpetually. (i.e. if defeated, the rest of the agreement doesn't expire.) This kind of contract is one I've seen the label "Exploitation or Unconscionable Bargain" put too more than once.

 

Personally, whatever software they sold you... I'd go ahead and download and then circumvent the protection scheme... Which is easy on steam. Am I suggesting you break the law? No, because you have the RIGHT to circumvent for the purposes of ineroperability. See section 1201(f): Circumvention for the purposes of interoperability. If you want to run that game on Linux under WINE, you're covered.

 

Consult a lawyer first, but I would think that if you really do make an attempt to run it on another platform and document your attempt, then you're butt is covered. Note: There is a section on archival as well.

 

But, you're right to object to their rediculous contract...

 

Obsidian:

 

I don't care what deals you strike with whoever, as long as you own the IP and are doing the development, etc. That said, I have NO INTEREST in Paradox's click-wraps... I expect my backer click-wrap agreement to be with OBSIDIAN, not latecomers to the party.

 

 

Actually, my concern has nothing to do with Linux/WINE compatibility.  Its purely about what terms companies think that they can impose on consumers who purchase their products.

 

The majority of their EULAs that I've read specify that consumers can only sue them in Sweden, yet they can sue the consumer "in any court in the world".  In writing their EULA, Paradox actually contemplates attempting to compel their consumers to travel the world in order to show up in a court of their convenience and not the consumer's.

 

Irregardless of whether or not it is legal (thanks for the link, btw; another link on that Wikipedia page took me to the EU legal reference that I needed in regard to this), the fact that Paradox (and they're not alone in this) thinks that they can impose terms upon consumers that, as time passes, are growing so severe that I almost expect them to start requiring first-born children from consumers in exchange for purchasing their products.

 

Furthermore, such EULAs are difficult to find online ahead of purchase.  Combine that with the impossibility of return after finally getting to read that EULA (I actually remember a time when software stores would accept a return because the game didn't work despite a system which met minimum requirements; its been about thirty years since that was the case, about the same time that ARPANET adopted TCP/IP) and with state attorneys general here in the US whose underlings have basically told me that "if it happens completely online, then no law actually applies" or "You have to tell them about your disabilities before you purchase if you wish to invoke the ADA after they change the contract for sale at a later date" when I have attempted to request enforcement of consumer protection laws in the past.  Add it all up and I get a bad taste in my mouth any time I contemplate a purchase when I can't read the EULA up front since I no longer have a reasonable belief that consumer protection laws have any teeth.

 

Its a testament to just how much I want to see a game made that I'll back it on Kickstarter (four in total, and almost a year since the last one was funded), since it is yet another circumstance where I can't read that EULA up front.

 

TL/DR:  When the government enforces click-through EULAs but refuses to enforce consumer protection laws, the fact that a license term is legally unconscionable becomes irrelevant.

[stryck9]

There are 13 Watchers that currently exist in the world.

 

13 tribes of Kobol.

 

Coincidence?

I can assure you, it was a conspiracy...

[Giantevilhead]

Obsidian Paradox does have a certain ring to it. It sounds all ancient and mysterious.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Giantevilhead

[stryck9]

 

@Bryy Er, ok, that's not helping your argument,  partners make joint decisions... Do you want a publisher "partner" making joint decisions about a game you funded?  Asking for clarification, especially when it comes to a nebulous term like marketing seems fair in my book...

Erm... the worst thing someone in charge of marketing can do is give everyone a horrible impression of your game and/or flat-out lie about its design.

 

The people who make commercials for Ford don't get to tell Ford engineers how to design their vehicles and products.

 

"Nebulous term like marketing," he says...

 

Silly goose.

 

OK I am complete satisfied with the answers provided by @badler. That said when ever you see product placement on tv/movies/games, guess what? Marketing! When your email address is being sold by your insurance company/cellphone carrier/credit card company, guess what? Marketing! If you think that coke or nike doesn't have redline privileges on how their product is shown in any media, think again, marketing. Any Disney animated movie, while story is one component, marketing is working overtime in tandem to make sure $s...Work in LA or SF for a bit and you will see how marketing does or can influence design decision. Your ford example is flawed. Ford doesn't ask its ad agency what car to build, but ford execs sure as hell asks the internal marketing team what will sell, and then designs and build cars accordingly. 

 

Any how I asked the question I wanted, and got the answer, I am perfectly content.

Edited March 20, 2014 by stryck9

[Korron]

Alright thanks for spending time doing this. I feel much better about this now.

[pi2repsion]

The majority of their EULAs that I've read specify that consumers can only sue them in Sweden, yet they can sue the consumer "in any court in the world".  In writing their EULA, Paradox actually contemplates attempting to compel their consumers to travel the world in order to show up in a court of their convenience and not the consumer's.

A question - exactly how does this differ from other EULAs? Isn't it common for EULA's to state a court that the user agrees will have jurisdiction in case he has to sue, to prevent the company from being obligated to defend in any court in the world under whatever conditions might apply there?

 

I am pretty sure that I've seen words to that effect in every EULA it has ever been my displeasure to skim. Most commonly it is some location in the US due to the prevalence of US distributers (California is frequently used, so I assume they have the laws most beneficial to the distributers). This is not because they want to compel customers to travel to the US in order to show up in court, but because they aren't morons and want - insofar as it is possible under national and international law - to defend themselves under one common standard of law.

 

I don't recall any company, ever, writing in its EULA that it will give a reciprocal agreement not to pursue the user in other venues. That's, again, because companies aren't populated by morons. Should a user violate the EULA to such a degree that it makes economic sense to hire lawyers familiar with another jurisdiction in order to lay suit against a user in another jurisdiction, something that is only extremely rarely the case, they will do so.

[PrimeJunta]

I understand that you can't share the dollar details of the deal, but some information on the structure would have been nice. E.g. "This is a revenue-sharing agreement on copies sold on top of the Kickstarter."

 

FWIW I have zero problems with that, as long as it stays DRM-free etc. It's the "we give you money, now we own you" type of thing I don't like.

[Leferd]

Egads!! This better not mean that Obsidian will lose control over the the choosing of fabric used on our backer t-shirts.

[Anaeme]

Trust

[Huinehtar]

 

Nowadays, since Steam has autopatching and GOG keeps patched builds, I am not so optimistic in the idea to have a DRM-free DVD version outside of GOG, since Obsidian would have to store DRM-free patches in another place than Steam and GOG. In the end, you're right, a DRM-free DVD could be useless if no manual patching is available.

Well, I don't think that it would be a big problem to store some update files in a server somewhere at Obsidian.

 

I hope so.

 

 

My original question was concerning the future boxed copies available at release for non-backers.

Not boxed copies for backers.

Not GOG digital keys for backers and non-backers.

 

I thank Obsidian for planning to have a digital DRM-free version available and to have a DRM-free boxed copy for us, backers.

I was just worried about future boxed copies, since I was planning to buy DRM-free boxed copies for some of my friends who haven't keep an eye on Pillars of Eternity.

We haven't had an in depth discussion, but what we offer to the backers is most likely what we will offer to non-backers.

 

Thanks Very appreciated.

[Hassat Hunter]

Erm... the worst thing someone in charge of marketing can do is give everyone a horrible impression of your game and/or flat-out lie about its design.

They can still work for BioWare marketign then...

 

"THIS IS THE NEW ****!" - Dragon Age: Origins

"We modified DA2's start, since most people stopped early on in the game" - DA2

 

Geez, guess it couldn't have been the marketing, and people buying something way different from what they expected?

 

(Only game-example I could think of)

[Jajo]

 

You do know all EULA's are like that? Valve, Blizzard, EA all own your soul nowadays already...

 

And I see the hysterical reaction when Expedition Conquisitor mentioned the same (and possibly other KS'ses, though I didn't back any more) is still present nowadays.

 

Anyway, my question would be... with this deal, could shipping costs in the EU be lower. I refrained from getting a physical copy during KS because of the shipping costs, despite really wanting it... if the costs could be lowered, I could up my pledge to get an actual box, and that would make me very happy

I don't think the shipping costs will be lowered.

 

 

Where's the dislike this button when you need one...

[jethro]

 

The transparency has been great. While I myself would have like something a bit more comprehensive (and yet clearer) like DFA's documentaries, beggers cannot be choosers.

 

 

You mean documentaries that were so expensive that they didn't have left enough money to do the actually game in one set? ;-)