Ukraine Redux

[Valsuelm]

 

 

If some of our members like 2133, Valsuelm and Zora were prepared to stop trying to paint Russia as some sort of victim in this wanton aggression and illegal annexing of Crimea this discussion would have ended ages ago. But until they are prepared to do this I have to continue trying to get them to see the truth...I feel it is my responsibility to help them

 

 

At no point have I ever stated that Russia is any sort of a victim in regards to Crimea or Ukraine nor implied it in this thread or anywhere else in the world. If you think I did, I either typoed pretty bad or you misinterpreted what I wrote big time. Please share a link where you think I called Russia a victim and I'll clarify for you.

 

And I may have missed something but I don't even think anyone has said Russia is a victim in regards to the situation at hand, even Oby.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Sarex]

At no point have I ever stated that Russia is any sort of a victim in regards to Crimea or Ukraine nor implied it in this thread or anywhere else in the world. If you think I did, I either typoed pretty bad or you misinterpreted what I wrote big time. Please share a link where you think I called Russia a victim and I'll clarify for you.

 

And I may have missed something but I don't even think anyone has said Russia is a victim in regards to the situation at hand, even Oby.

 

I think it's all black and white in his head. He must think that it's either Russia is bad or Russia is good. In fact I think many people in this thread have that problem.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Well! It's a fine day for Americentrism, don't you think?

Seeing as America is the country with the most economic and military power, every day is. Deal with it.

 

If you still don't see the point of discussing this, well... there's always the attractive women thread.

Discussing this? R00fles! You people aren't having a discussion, you're sniping at each other with passive aggressive bitching and the occasional link. If I wanted to discuss this, I would do so in a place other than an American video game developer's forum with people called "213374U", "Volorun", "BruceVC", "TrashMan", or "Mor".

 

Stop taking yourself so seriously, honeybun.

[BruceVC]

 

Well! It's a fine day for Americentrism, don't you think?

Seeing as America is the country with the most economic and military power, every day is. Deal with it.

 

If you still don't see the point of discussing this, well... there's always the attractive women thread.

Discussing this? R00fles! You people aren't having a discussion, you're sniping at each other with passive aggressive bitching and the occasional link. If I wanted to discuss this, I would do so in a place other than an American video game developer's forum with people called "213374U", "Volorun", "BruceVC", "TrashMan", or "Mor".

 

Stop taking yourself so seriously, honeybun.

 

 

Hey !!!! Whats wrong with the name "BruceVC" ,,,,thats a normal name,  the rest of the names are questionable but not mine

[BruceVC]

 

 

And dude, stop with the "I have evidence, but it's up to you to dig it up" schtick. It was funny the first time, perhaps, but that's not how conversations work. No, really.

 

 

Yeah I also thought it was funny the first time, okay I won't do it regularly in the interests of reasonable debate and debating etiquette

[TrashMan]

 

-Maybe half of it.

 

-They don't talk about it like you have seen it.

 

-Yeah you said 2400, might as well said 4000. I can't find anything on those convicted Croats and you won't show any proof. So yes you are lying. I never claimed we convicted anyone, while you still claim 2400 Croats were convicted.

 

-200 000 thousand Serbs exiled over 1000 dead, all during operation storm.

 

- check the news and the wiki. That is the official number.

 

- Not proof of ethnic cleansing. Exodus =/= ethnic cleansing. Unless you have actual proof of the CA actively forcing people out of their homes using force or executing them, on a large scale and in organized and planned fashion?

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are confusing something. During that time the country was SFRY and YNA was doing was doing it's job of keeping stability in it's own country. If civilians start arming them self and harming others then of course the army is going to come and keep peace. You are making this out to seem as YNA was killing unarmed civilians, when they were in fact fighting the first Croatian and Muslim paramilitary troops.

 

You are also confusing something else, I did not get my information from the media. I got my information from the people who fought in the war and the people who were exiled from their homes. So try and dismiss what I say all you want, it's not me who is making up ridiculous stories.

 

This is the same BS justification Puting is using. "I'm only protecting my people/interestest".

 

 

Some context:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence

 

 

Immediately after the Slovenian parliamentary election, 1990 and the Croatian parliamentary election, 1990 in April and May 1990, the JNA announced that the Josip Broz Tito-era doctrine of "general people's defense", in which each republic maintained a Territorial defense force (Croatian: Teritorijalna obrana) (TO), would henceforth be replaced by a centrally directed system of defense. The republics would lose their role in defense matters and their TOs would be disarmed and subordinated to JNA headquarters in Belgrade, but the new Slovenian government acted quickly to retain control over the TO.^[70]On May 14, 1990, the weapons of the TO of Croatia, in regions with Croatian majorities, were taken away by the Army,^[71] preventing the possibility of Croatia having its own weapons like it was done in Slovenia.^[72] .^[73]Borisav Jović, Serbia's representative on the Federal Presidency and a close ally of Slobodan Milošević, claimed that this action came at the behest of Serbia.^[74]

 

 

On 22 December 1990, the Parliament of Croatia ratified the new constitution^[84] which was read as taking away some of the rights that Serbs had been granted by the previous Socialist constitution, and fueled extremism among the Serbs of Croatia.^[85] However, the constitution did define Croatia as "the national state of the Croatian nation and a state of members of other nations and minorities who are its citizens: Serbs ... who are guaranteed equality with citizens of Croatian nationality ..."^[76]

 

 

Even though the two people combined comprised 38.8% of the population of Yugoslavia, 70% of all JNA officers and non-commissioned officers were either Serbs or Montenegrins.^[99] In 1991, the JNA was instructed by Slobodan Milošević and Borisav Jović, through the federal defense secretary Kadijević, to "completely eliminate Croats and Slovenes from the army."^[100]

 

 

Among other incidents, local Serbs from the southern hinterlands of Croatia, mostly around the city of Knin, blocked roads to tourist destinations in Dalmatia. This incident is known as the "Log revolution".^[78][79] Years later, during Martić's trial, Babić would claim that he was tricked by Martić into agreeing to the Log Revolution, and that it and the entire war in Croatia was Martić's responsibility, and had been orchestrated by Belgrade.^[80] The statement was corroborated by Martić in an interview published in 1991.^[81] Babić confirmed that by July 1991 Milošević had taken over control of the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA).^[82] The Croatian government responded to the blockade of roads by sending special police teams in helicopters to the scene, but they were intercepted by SFR Yugoslav Air Force fighter jets and forced to turn back to Zagreb. The Serbs felled pine trees or used bulldozers to block roads to seal off towns like Knin and Benkovac near the Adriatic coast. On 18 August 1990, the Serbian newspaper Večernje novosti said that almost "two million Serbs were ready to go to Croatia to fight".^[78]

 

 

Throughout this period, the federal army, the JNA, and the local Territorial Defense Forces continued to be led by Federal authorities controlled by Milošević. Helsinki Watch reported that Serb Krajina authorities executed Serbs who were willing to reach an accommodation with Croat officials.^[24]

 

 

************

 

Croatia declared independence and dissolved its association with Yugoslavia on 25 June 1991

 

In July, in an attempt to salvage what remained of Yugoslavia, the JNA forces were involved in operations against predominantly Croat areas. In July the Serb-led Territorial Defence Forces started their advance on Dalmatian coastal areas in Operation Coast-91.^[127] By early August, large areas of Banovina were overrun by Serb forces.^[128]

 

 

One month after Croatia declared its independence, the Yugoslav army and other Serb forces held something less than one-third of the Croatian territory,^[128] mostly in areas with a predominantly ethnic Serb population.^[131][132] The JNA military strategy partly consisted of extensive shelling, at times irrespective of the presence of civilians.^[133] As the war progressed, the cities of Dubrovnik, Gospić, Šibenik, Zadar, Karlovac, Sisak, Slavonski Brod, Osijek, Vinkovci, and Vukovar all came under attack by Yugoslav forces.^{[134][135][136][137]} The United Nations (UN) imposed a weapons embargo; this did not affect JNA-backed Serb forces significantly, as they had the JNA arsenal at their disposal, but it caused serious trouble for the newly formed Croatian army. The Croatian government started smuggling weapons over its borders.^[138][139]

 

 

In September, Serbian troops completely surrounded the city of Vukovar. Croatian troops, including the 204th Vukovar Brigade, entrenched themselves within the city and held their ground against elite armored and mechanized brigades of the JNA, as well as Serb paramilitary units.^[147][148] Vukovar was almost completely devastated; 15,000 houses were destroyed.^[149] Some ethnic Croatian civilians had taken shelter inside the city. Other members of the civilian population fled the area en masse. Death toll estimates for Vukovar as a result of the siege range from 1,798 to 5,000.^[95] A further 22,000 were exiled from Vukovar immediately after the town was captured.^[149][150]

 

 

On 5 October, President Tuđman made a speech in which he called upon the whole population to mobilize and defend against "Greater Serbian imperialism" pursued by the Serb-led JNA, Serbian paramilitary formations, and rebel Serb forces.^[104] On October 7 the Yugoslav air force attacked the main government building in Zagreb, an incident referred to as the bombing of Banski dvori.^[153][154]

 

 

 

The Vukovar massacre took place in November;^[163][164] the survivors were transported to prison camps such as Ovčara and Velepromet, with the majority ending up in Sremska Mitrovica prison camp.^[165] The sustained siege of Vukovar attracted heavy international media attention. Many international journalists were in or near Vukovar, as was UN peace mediator Cyrus Vance, who had been Secretary of State to former US President Carter.^[166]

Also in eastern Slavonia, the Lovas massacre occurred in October^[94][167] and the Erdut massacre in November 1991, before and after the fall of Vukovar.^[168] At the same time, the Škabrnja massacre occurred in the northern Dalmatian hinterland; it was largely overshadowed by the events at Vukovar.^[169]

On 14 November, the Navy blockade of Dalmatian ports was challenged by civilian ships. The confrontation culminated in the Battle of the Dalmatian channels, when Croatian coastal and island based artillery damaged, sank, or captured a number of Yugoslav navy vessels, including Mukos PČ 176, later rechristened PB 62 Šolta.^[170] After the battle, the Yugoslav naval operations were effectively limited to the southern Adriatic.^[171]

 

 

 

 

The Siege of Dubrovnik (Croatian: Opsada Dubrovnika, Serbian: Blokada Dubrovnika) was a military engagement fought between the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA) and Croatian forces defending the city of Dubrovnik and its surroundings during the Croatian War of Independence. The JNA started its advance on 1 October 1991 and by late October had captured virtually all of the territory between the Pelješac and Prevlaka peninsulas on the coast of the Adriatic Sea—except for Dubrovnik itself. The JNA attacks and bombardment of Dubrovnik, including the Old Town—a UNESCO World Heritage Site—culminated on 6 December 1991. The bombardment provoked a strong international condemnation of the JNA and became a public relations disaster for Serbia and Montenegro, contributing to their diplomatic and economic isolation and the international recognition of the independence of Croatia. In May 1992, the JNA pulled back from Dubrovnik to Bosnia and Herzegovina, less than 1 kilometre (0.62 miles) from the coast in some places, and east of the city to hand over its equipment to the newly formed Army of the Republika Srpska (VRS). During this time, the Croatian Army (HV) attacked from the west and pushed back the JNA/VRS from the areas west of Dubrovnik, both in Croatia and in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and by the end of May linked up with the HV unit defending the city. Fighting between the HV and the Yugoslav troops east of Dubrovnik gradually died down.

 

Combat near Dubrovnik was followed by the withdrawal of JNA from Konavle, between 30 September and 20 October 1992.

 

**********

 

So yeah.. the glorious Serbian army was doing a great job of protecting it's people by shelling the living s**** out of cities

 

[213374U]

Seeing as America is the country with the most economic and military power, every day is. Deal with it.

 

Yeah, I'm sure you are an active participant in the glory of the American economy, the head of a S&P 500 company, and not a burger flipper on minimum wage or something like that, not at all.

 

 

Discussing this? R00fles! You people aren't having a discussion, you're sniping at each other with passive aggressive bitching and the occasional link. If I wanted to discuss this, I would do so in a place other than an American video game developer's forum with people called "213374U", "Volorun", "BruceVC", "TrashMan", or "Mor".

Stop taking yourself so seriously, honeybun.

 

0/10 would not read again.

 

And for someone not interested in the thread, your repeated attention grabs are pretty funny. What, the in-laws are visiting and pissed in your corn flakes again? Or maybe you are just not getting enough likes for your lame jokes in other threads? Poor dear.

 

(that lighthearted enough for you?)  

[Sarex]

- check the news and the wiki. That is the official number.

 

- Not proof of ethnic cleansing. Exodus =/= ethnic cleansing. Unless you have actual proof of the CA actively forcing people out of their homes using force or executing them, on a large scale and in organized and planned fashion?

 

*******************************************************

 

So yeah.. the glorious Serbian army was doing a great job of protecting it's people by shelling the living s**** out of cities

 

 

-still no link for those 2400 (even though you copy/pasted the entire wiki below)

 

-Operation Storm would tell me that it was a planed operation. The exodus of 200 000 people and the death of over 1000 during Operation Storm, would tell me that those 2 are connected. So planned ethnic cleansing.

 

******************************************************************** 

 

Woah there, take it easy with the copy/paste, you wouldn't want to hurt your fingers.

 

By the admition of your own former minister Josip Boljkovac(during the war), Tudjman was the one who instigated the armed conflicts(you ignored this the first time I said it). So in fact all that you quoted from wiki shows what happened, but with key pieces of information cut out. If you bothered to read the source articles, you would see that the picture is not as one sided as you paint it. Let's not even get started with the legality of the voting that happened before the war.

[BruceVC]

 

Seeing as America is the country with the most economic and military power, every day is. Deal with it.

 

Yeah, I'm sure you are an active participant in the glory of the American economy, the head of a S&P 500 company, and not a burger flipper on minimum wage or something like that, not at all.

 

 

Discussing this? R00fles! You people aren't having a discussion, you're sniping at each other with passive aggressive bitching and the occasional link. If I wanted to discuss this, I would do so in a place other than an American video game developer's forum with people called "213374U", "Volorun", "BruceVC", "TrashMan", or "Mor".

Stop taking yourself so seriously, honeybun.

 

0/10 would not read again.

 

And for someone not interested in the thread, your repeated attention grabs are pretty funny. What, the in-laws are visiting and pissed in your corn flakes again? Or maybe you are just not getting enough likes for your lame jokes in other threads? Poor dear.

 

(that lighthearted enough for you?)  

 

 

  I must say that was quite  funny

[Malcador]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26729273

 

Well, can't say I see this as all that bad.

[TrashMan]

 

-Operation Storm would tell me that it was a planed operation. The exodus of 200 000 people and the death of over 1000 during Operation Storm, would tell me that those 2 are connected. So planned ethnic cleansing.

 

Re-taking of territory is a military plan. Evicting Serbs was not part of it. To take territory the army has to advance.

If you think it is, prove it.

Find some document, a signed order, a video - anything. Every single piece of "evidence" was already submitted to the courts. And we know the conclusion already.

 

 

 

 

Woah there, take it easy with the copy/paste, you wouldn't want to hurt your fingers.

 

By the admition of your own former minister Josip Boljkovac(during the war), Tudjman was the one who instigated the armed conflicts(you ignored this the first time I said it). So in fact all that you quoted from wiki shows what happened, but with key pieces of information cut out. If you bothered to read the source articles, you would see that the picture is not as one sided as you paint it. Let's not even get started with the legality of the voting that happened before the war.

 

BS again.

The one who instigated the conflict was Milosević and the leadership of Serbia. No one in Yugoslavia was happy with it other then Serbia, and it wanted to make damn sure no one left.

 

And the voting was legal. The SFRJ was a Federation - meaning Croats had the right to leave it if they so wanted. A right Serbia was desperately trying to deny them, by spreading propaganda and lies, arming nationalists and pouring oil into the fire.

 

And I see you still refuse to answer - tell me how did the JNA protect "it's people" in Vukovar? How did it protect them in Dubrovnik? I repeat:

 

 

"One month after Croatia declared its independence, the Yugoslav army and other Serb forces held something less than one-third of the Croatian territory,^[128] mostly in areas with a predominantly ethnic Serb population.^[131][132] The JNA military strategy partly consisted of extensive shelling, at times irrespective of the presence of civilians.^[133] As the war progressed, the cities of Dubrovnik, Gospić, Šibenik, Zadar, Karlovac, Sisak, Slavonski Brod, Osijek, Vinkovci, and Vukovar all came under attack by Yugoslav forces.^{[134][135][136][137]}"

 

 

The same BS justification Putin is using (I have to protect the Russians in Ukraine form evil, natzi nationalist) is what Milosević and Serbia tried to use back then.

 

[Sarex]

Re-taking of territory is a military plan. Evicting Serbs was not part of it. To take territory the army has to advance.

If you think it is, prove it.

Find some document, a signed order, a video - anything. Every single piece of "evidence" was already submitted to the courts. And we know the conclusion already.

 

Just so you know I will not let go of those 2400 convicted Croats. That was a pretty big lie on your part.

 

As for the evidence it has been submitted the trial is still ongoing.

 

 

BS again.

The one who instigated the conflict was Milosević and the leadership of Serbia. No one in Yugoslavia was happy with it other then Serbia, and it wanted to make damn sure no one left.

 

And the voting was legal. The SFRJ was a Federation - meaning Croats had the right to leave it if they so wanted. A right Serbia was desperately trying to deny them, by spreading propaganda and lies, arming nationalists and pouring oil into the fire.

 

And I see you still refuse to answer - tell me how did the JNA protect "it's people" in Vukovar? How did it protect them in Dubrovnik? I repeat:

 

By the words of your own former Minister who was in office during the war, Tudjman was the one to instigate armed conflict. How is that BS?

 

Do you think that YNA was fighting unarmed civilians? It was an all out battle in Vukovar. You make it out to seem like YNA came and attacked civilians which is nothing further from the truth. The Croats were armed and ready for a conflict, the Serbs weren't, thus YNA came and protected them.

 

 

The same BS justification Putin is using (I have to protect the Russians in Ukraine form evil, natzi nationalist) is what Milosević and Serbia tried to use back then.

 

Only the Ukrainians weren't burning hundreds of Crimean villages and killing the Russian population indiscriminately. Want proof? Watch the movie I linked to Bruce. There are video records of those villages in it.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Yeah, I'm sure you are an active participant in the glory of the American economy, the head of a S&P 500 company, and not a burger flipper on minimum wage or something like that, not at all.

Part time student and office manager for a small business, actually. What's your status boo? 12th year student or unemployed?

 

0/10 would not read again.

Yet you took the time to rely. I take it being a pretentious pissbag on video game forums isn't particularly impressive with women.

 

And for someone not interested in the thread, your repeated attention grabs are pretty funny. What, the in-laws are visiting and pissed in your corn flakes again? Or maybe you are just not getting enough likes for your lame jokes in other threads? Poor dear.

I can't watch porn at work, sweet pea. You have an excuse, or is the height of your day debating intellectual juggernaugts like "Valsulem" or "Mor" down the hall from threads about the merits of min-maxing?

 

(that lighthearted enough for you?)  

Bit of an improvement, could be nastier love.

[213374U]

I can't watch porn at work, sweet pea. 

 

Well played.

[BruceVC]

 

Yeah, I'm sure you are an active participant in the glory of the American economy, the head of a S&P 500 company, and not a burger flipper on minimum wage or something like that, not at all.

Part time student and office manager for a small business, actually. What's your status boo? 12th year student or unemployed?

 

0/10 would not read again.

Yet you took the time to rely. I take it being a pretentious pissbag on video game forums isn't particularly impressive with women.

 

And for someone not interested in the thread, your repeated attention grabs are pretty funny. What, the in-laws are visiting and pissed in your corn flakes again? Or maybe you are just not getting enough likes for your lame jokes in other threads? Poor dear.

I can't watch porn at work, sweet pea. You have an excuse, or is the height of your day debating intellectual juggernaugts like "Valsulem" or "Mor" down the hall from threads about the merits of min-maxing?

 

(that lighthearted enough for you?)  

Bit of an improvement, could be nastier love.

 

 

I retract what I said earlier, it appears you can take a joke and respond accordingly ...funny comments

[Valsuelm]

 

I retract what I said earlier, it appears you can take a joke and respond accordingly ...funny comments

 

 

Standard troll tripe really, both disrespecting and disrespectable.

[BruceVC]

 

 

I retract what I said earlier, it appears you can take a joke and respond accordingly ...funny comments

 

 

Standard troll tripe really, both disrespecting and disrespectable.

 

 

Someone got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning  Whats wrong my darling....come tell me whats bothering you

[Mor]

 

I suspect that current that the current sanctions are the tip of the iceberg, currently they are very limited and mostly effective in scaring investors in fear of future sanctions. The real effect will come from the freeze in relationship and will effect current and future project with Russian (e.g. the new black sea pipeline which had legal issue in the EU ) it might also cause NATO to react aggressively not only by bringing Sweden into the fold but go as far as helping in Georgia.

 

EDIT:

It might not help them on individual level for example you know how real champagne is suppose to be from champagne region in France, well apparently Vodka is from anywhere but Russia ( Sweden make far better one anyway )

 

NATO has been open to Swedish entry since about the end of the Cold War. Even before that though, there have been significant ties and (secret) military cooperation. I don't think that Sweden will enter NATO any time soon, though. It's honestly more likely that Finland joins NATO. What is likely though is a significant military rearmament in Eastern and Northern Europe. Additionally, I think we will see Central Asian nations drifting further away from Russia and closer to China and Turkey.

 

I was referring to several news items that followed on the heels of Russian action in Ukraine, claiming that Sweden considered to revise its previous position on Nato membership. As for Finland, I am not familiar with situation there, but I suspect that it might be more complicated case like with any other state in Russia sphere of influence and further NATO enlargement.

 

I doubt this action will have a significant direct effect on the current trend of Russian power in Central Asia one way or another. ( unlike the adverse effect on relations with Europe, or intervention in Syria effect on middle eastern countries). Btw this arena is one of the concerns of "westren" policy makers, that to harsh sanctions might disturb the balance of powers, leading Russia toward China.

[Gfted1]

If posters are too dense to understand why darling, boo, sweet pea or love would be considered insulting/trolling then I again advise everyone to follow the golden rule: Address the post and not the poster.

[Meshugger]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26729273

 

Well, can't say I see this as all that bad.

 

Death those who insult democracy!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I can't watch porn at work, sweet pea.

 

Well played.

Unlike myself, unfortunately.

 

Standard troll tripe really, both disrespecting and disrespectable.

Blame the lizardmen and their incoming New world Order.

 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26729273

 

Well, can't say I see this as all that bad.

 

 

Death those who insult democracy!

That should be written on all bombs dropped by the US.

[Elerond]

 

 

I suspect that current that the current sanctions are the tip of the iceberg, currently they are very limited and mostly effective in scaring investors in fear of future sanctions. The real effect will come from the freeze in relationship and will effect current and future project with Russian (e.g. the new black sea pipeline which had legal issue in the EU ) it might also cause NATO to react aggressively not only by bringing Sweden into the fold but go as far as helping in Georgia.

 

EDIT:

It might not help them on individual level for example you know how real champagne is suppose to be from champagne region in France, well apparently Vodka is from anywhere but Russia ( Sweden make far better one anyway )

 

NATO has been open to Swedish entry since about the end of the Cold War. Even before that though, there have been significant ties and (secret) military cooperation. I don't think that Sweden will enter NATO any time soon, though. It's honestly more likely that Finland joins NATO. What is likely though is a significant military rearmament in Eastern and Northern Europe. Additionally, I think we will see Central Asian nations drifting further away from Russia and closer to China and Turkey.

 

I was referring to several news items that followed on the heels of Russian action in Ukraine, claiming that Sweden considered to revise its previous position on Nato membership. As for Finland, I am not familiar with situation there, but I suspect that it might be more complicated case like with any other state in Russia sphere of influence and further NATO enlargement.

 

I doubt this action will have a significant direct effect on the current trend of Russian power in Central Asia one way or another. ( unlike the adverse effect on relations with Europe, or intervention in Syria effect on middle eastern countries). Btw this arena is one of the concerns of "westren" policy makers, that to harsh sanctions might disturb the balance of powers, leading Russia toward China.

 

 

In Finland NATO membership has been on table from founding days of NATO, as then USSR and now Russia had/have quite aggressive foreign politic and Russians have long history to invade to lands of Finland, which is why many people see that membership in NATO would give Finland extra protection against possible future aggression or at least make invading Finland less sensible thing to do. But on other hand Russia is Finland neighbour which Finland also has as long history of trade and cooperation as it has history of aggression from Russia, and Finland don't have best history with NATO countries either, as we have been in war with several of them, although only UK has ever attacked us (during Crimean war), I think. And in second world war, USA and UK (and some other NATO countries) gave their support for USSR and put heavy sanctions for Finland. Which why Finland is quite reluctant to join any military alliances. Of course there is also discussion how NATO membership will effect Finland's military spending and do Finland need to take part in NATO operations when it's a member. 

 

Although now it looks like that Russian's actions in Crimean may have given enough support for NATO membership that first time of history constitutional majority of Finland's parliament could support joining in NATO. On the other hand Cabinet of Finland is currently very indecisive (in all subjects, not only this), which probably means that current Crimean crisis will be over and new parliament have elected before there is even first version of bill written about subject.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

I suspect that current that the current sanctions are the tip of the iceberg, currently they are very limited and mostly effective in scaring investors in fear of future sanctions. The real effect will come from the freeze in relationship and will effect current and future project with Russian (e.g. the new black sea pipeline which had legal issue in the EU ) it might also cause NATO to react aggressively not only by bringing Sweden into the fold but go as far as helping in Georgia.

 

EDIT:

It might not help them on individual level for example you know how real champagne is suppose to be from champagne region in France, well apparently Vodka is from anywhere but Russia ( Sweden make far better one anyway )

 

NATO has been open to Swedish entry since about the end of the Cold War. Even before that though, there have been significant ties and (secret) military cooperation. I don't think that Sweden will enter NATO any time soon, though. It's honestly more likely that Finland joins NATO. What is likely though is a significant military rearmament in Eastern and Northern Europe. Additionally, I think we will see Central Asian nations drifting further away from Russia and closer to China and Turkey.

 

I was referring to several news items that followed on the heels of Russian action in Ukraine, claiming that Sweden considered to revise its previous position on Nato membership. As for Finland, I am not familiar with situation there, but I suspect that it might be more complicated case like with any other state in Russia sphere of influence and further NATO enlargement.

 

I doubt this action will have a significant direct effect on the current trend of Russian power in Central Asia one way or another. ( unlike the adverse effect on relations with Europe, or intervention in Syria effect on middle eastern countries). Btw this arena is one of the concerns of "westren" policy makers, that to harsh sanctions might disturb the balance of powers, leading Russia toward China.

 

 

In Finland NATO membership has been on table from founding days of NATO, as then USSR and now Russia had/have quite aggressive foreign politic and Russians have long history to invade to lands of Finland, which is why many people see that membership in NATO would give Finland extra protection against possible future aggression or at least make invading Finland less sensible thing to do. But on other hand Russia is Finland neighbour which Finland also has as long history of trade and cooperation as it has history of aggression from Russia, and Finland don't have best history with NATO countries either, as we have been in war with several of them, although only UK has ever attacked us (during Crimean war), I think. And in second world war, USA and UK (and some other NATO countries) gave their support for USSR and put heavy sanctions for Finland. Which why Finland is quite reluctant to join any military alliances. Of course there is also discussion how NATO membership will effect Finland's military spending and do Finland need to take part in NATO operations when it's a member. 

 

Although now it looks like that Russian's actions in Crimean may have given enough support for NATO membership that first time of history constitutional majority of Finland's parliament could support joining in NATO. On the other hand Cabinet of Finland is currently very indecisive (in all subjects, not only this), which probably means that current Crimean crisis will be over and new parliament have elected before there is even first version of bill written about subject.

 

 

Interesting post around how Finland views NATO

[Agiel]

In Finland NATO membership has been on table from founding days of NATO, as then USSR and now Russia had/have quite aggressive foreign politic and Russians have long history to invade to lands of Finland, which is why many people see that membership in NATO would give Finland extra protection against possible future aggression or at least make invading Finland less sensible thing to do. But on other hand Russia is Finland neighbour which Finland also has as long history of trade and cooperation as it has history of aggression from Russia, and Finland don't have best history with NATO countries either, as we have been in war with several of them, although only UK has ever attacked us (during Crimean war), I think. And in second world war, USA and UK (and some other NATO countries) gave their support for USSR and put heavy sanctions for Finland. Which why Finland is quite reluctant to join any military alliances. Of course there is also discussion how NATO membership will effect Finland's military spending and do Finland need to take part in NATO operations when it's a member. 

 

Although now it looks like that Russian's actions in Crimean may have given enough support for NATO membership that first time of history constitutional majority of Finland's parliament could support joining in NATO. On the other hand Cabinet of Finland is currently very indecisive (in all subjects, not only this), which probably means that current Crimean crisis will be over and new parliament have elected before there is even first version of bill written about subject.

 

 

There's a joke in the Finnish military: "If the enemy is attacking from a direction that is not East, then that means he has performed a brilliant flanking maneuver."

Edited March 25, 2014 by Agiel

[obyknven]

World reacion to Crimean referendum.

Eurasian Union (Kazakhstan, Belarus, Armenia, other Central Asian countries) - ok.
African Union - ok
BRICS (China, India, Brazil etc) - ok
Latin America (Argentina, Venezuela etc) - ok
Even occupied by NATO Afghanistan support Crimean referendum.

Obama's reaction: “Crimea is not a done deal in the sense that the international community by and large is not recognising the annexation of Crimea”. Ermmm. What about international community Obama talking constantly? He mean US and his bitches satellites?

I understand his actions (by Crimean performance Russian kick asses of Chevron and Shell from rich Crimean Oil (and other resourses) deposits, Obama as ****** of these corporations must make pleasure for his masters), but why he continue talking nonsense instead of truth?