Petition for comprehensive modding tools

[Silent Winter]

I'd like some modding tools - voted 'other' for Q2 since we don't really have any info on what's going to be available.

If it can be like IE game modding where new areas are difficult but new NPCs/Quests/Items are in, then I'll be fine with it.

Most BG mods either didn't add new areas or 'repurposed' areas from PST/IWD.

 

Dialogue and Creature editors would be useful.

[sibakruom]

Because to really get to the depth of it, the modder would need a rather expensive unity license (not expensive for companies, but it would be for individuals)...

Is this because of a need for the premium features? Unity itself is free to download.

Technically it should be possible to open a game to users with either custom made tools by the developers or by allowing them to use Unity itself (always the better option, IMO) as long as they don't release Unity source code it shouldn't be a problem. But I think they may be using UnityPro which would require them to develop the tools since I doubt modders are going to pay for it.

 

This is essentially what I've gathered as well. In order to mod Unity easily, either you own the same version of Unity that the one used to make the game, or the developer release modding tools they build themselves.

 

Unity's ease of use may have played against Obsidian in this case. I suspect that most of the tools they used when interacting with Unity are directly provided by Unity, or are modified version of tools provided by Unity, meaning they can't release any of them. This also means that they would need to build from scratch a worse version of what they already have in order to provide modding tools. These tools wouldn't be close in design to those used to actually make the game, so you could expect all kinds of problem.

Edited February 12, 2014 by sibakruom

[PrimeJunta]

I would like to see modding tools. That said, if the data formats they're using are open (as they seem to be), and since they're using Unity which is also based on open standards, it oughtn't be too difficult to mod even without a dedicated toolkit -- and it oughtn't be too hard for the community to make modding tools.

 

I can see how Obs would want to keep their eye on the ball and concentrate on making the best game they can at this point. Polishing up and releasing mod tools later would be cool though. I don't know if they want to give away some of their main competitive assets, such as their dialog editor though, which I hear is better than what others are using. Stupid capitalism.

[Endrosz]

That's a fair argument. But just look at what has come out of something like the Garden of Eden Creation Kit, or GecK. Sooooooo much content. Minimal tools, or opaque user-unfriendly tools will alienate potential new modders. People with talent and a story to tell who decide that it's just not worth getting in to.

 

For instance, from what I understand now, it's going to be very difficult to add in new environments, which basically forces anyone to re-use what is supplied by the game.

 

If people want to mod, they'll find a way. Never underestimate the power of the community.

 

I've done extensive modding to a strategy game (Kohan: Ahriman's Gift) that didn't support modding. "Someone" created the game-specific resource extractor filter for a general-purpose res-ext tool (can't recall its name), and after that, I could do so many things that I didn't even get to creating a new PvE campaign, I just modded the AI scripts and tweaked game balance for years.

 

That's not saying I'm against supporting modding -- I'm looking forward to start modding Eternity while it's still in beta. But if they say it's problematic to support this within the Unity engine, and would take up too much (human) resources to open up more, then I'll just take that at face value and be content that the modding community will find a way, eventually. For me, since I'm a systems guy mostly, adding new art has a low priority, and Sawyer already stated several times that the numerical data will be easily dumpable/modifiable. I can understand that would-be adventure module creators are disappointed, though.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Endrosz

[scub]

yes it's mandatory for any game to have a long "shelf life"

i haven't seen a game remain actively played for more than a year or two without any type modding.. people get bored after a while.

[Quillon]

Do you believe comprehensive modding tools are essential in ensuring long-time survival of a game and its fan community?

 

Depends on the game. If a game; has obvious unused technical potential/is full of bugs/is open world and/or has a bad story&characters then modding could help/be essential. But if it's a complete, bug-free experience and if it's as good/great as most people expected or if it's above expectations then modding wouldn't be essential. f.i. I saw what mods could do in Bethesda games but I never felt Witcher 2 needed mods in my numerous playtroughs.

 

In this game's case, I'm not an expert but they are doing some complicated sh*t with how they are making maps and stuff, using a lot of tools, 5 different layers in a map etc. It wouldn't be easy to make a modding-friendly tool for that/There wouldn't be enough modders who can do that for making the tool to be worth it. I may be completely wrong.

 

Do you believe Obsidian is doing enough, based on what we know, to ensure good tools for the modding community?

 

I believe they are trying to make the game as good as can be first and making a comprehensive mod tool is not a priority/obligatory thing for them and I'm fine with that.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Quillon

[Gizmo]

 

Because to really get to the depth of it, the modder would need a rather expensive unity license (not expensive for companies, but it would be for individuals)...

Is this because of a need for the premium features? Unity itself is free to download.

Technically it should be possible to open a game to users with either custom made tools by the developers or by allowing them to use Unity itself (always the better option, IMO) as long as they don't release Unity source code it shouldn't be a problem. But I think they may be using UnityPro which would require them to develop the tools since I doubt modders are going to pay for it.

 

This is essentially what I've gathered as well. In order to mod Unity easily, either you own the same version of Unity that the one used to make the game, or the developer release modding tools they build themselves.

 

Unity's ease of use may have played against Obsidian in this case. I suspect that most of the tools they used when interacting with Unity are directly provided by Unity, or are modified version of tools provided by Unity, meaning they can't release any of them. This also means that they would need to build from scratch a worse version of what they already have in order to provide modding tools. These tools wouldn't be close in design to those used to actually make the game, so you could expect all kinds of problem.

 

Open formats (all of them).

 

Legend of Grimrock devs [Almost Human], provided a basic map editor and a modest reference page of their object definitions and script interaction [both in Lua]... that's it. But they then published their file formats. The community created scripting frameworks, and even TWO joint effort 3d model & animation convertor tools that can import standard formats and export game ready animation and model assets.

[The model tools were mostly from just one clever programmer, IIRC with help from another's work on animation scaling.]

 

There is no guarantee that that will happen here, but I'd think that it's not very unlikely.  Provide the foundation and I'm fairly certain the fanbase will build on it.

 

** It should also be mentioned that AH are really cool guys that have even sat down and posted open call for easy editor features and coded the requests over a few beers while they sat there in the chat, and the results were in the next update!  Obsidian are really cool guys right?

(I know they are... I remember the hi-res Kotor2 cinematic replacement files they put up ~for free.)

Edited February 12, 2014 by Gizmo

[Greensleeve]

As Infinitron said, creating new areas is stupidly expensive for a modder to create in a game like this. Not sure why anyone expected it at all. It'd be nice to see the ability to add quests and tweak monster stats etc, but it's hardly essential. I never really used any mods for the IE games, for example. 

[sesobebo]

somewhat detailed documentation is paramount and would be nice to have. anything else is just gravy.

[Jarmo]

I believe very strong modding tools can help a game get some more sales.

That's games like Neverwinter Nights, Total War series (up to medieval 2) Mount & Blade and ARMA2 (Shadowrun Returns is a maybe).

The kinds of games where mods are total conversions that draw in players that wouldn't buy the game otherwise.

 

Even then, the extra sales percentage would almost certainly be in the single digits (ARMA2 and DayZ is probably the exception).

 

Then there are games like Baldurs Gate 2, Dragon Age, Icewind Dale or The Witcher.

There are mods, I'm not sure what's the quality of modding tools is, but there's a bunch of mods anyway.

The mods are nice to have, will certainly bring in some longevity to the game.

I'm astonished if these kinds of mods help generate more than one percent extra sales.

[sibakruom]

Open formats (all of them).

 

Legend of Grimrock devs [Almost Human], provided a basic map editor and a modest reference page of their object definitions and script interaction [both in Lua]... that's it. But they then published their file formats. The community created scripting frameworks, and even TWO joint effort 3d model & animation convertor tools that can import standard formats and export game ready animation and model assets.

[The model tools were mostly from just one clever programmer, IIRC with help from another's work on animation scaling.]

 

There is no guarantee that that will happen here, but I'd think that it's not very unlikely.  Provide the foundation and I'm fairly certain the fanbase will build on it.

 

** It should also be mentioned that AH are really cool guys that have even sat down and posted open call for easy editor features and coded the requests over a few beers while they sat there in the chat, and the results were in the next update!  Obsidian are really cool guys right?

(I know they are... I remember the hi-res Kotor2 cinematic replacement files they put up ~for free.)

 

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

 

Legend of Grimrock use an engine developed in-house by Almost Human, so they are free to release whatever they want. PoE use the Unity engine, which does have a free version, but no open version, as far as I know. Obsidian can't simply release the tools that were provided to them by Unity when they purchased the pro license.

 

And if I am not mistaken, they already said they plan to release their own file formats, or at least make them easy to edit with common tools. It's just that we won't get the tools they are using to create and edit those files.

[AwesomeOcelot]

I don't think every game has to be a platform for more, it's a viable strategy, Blizzard, iD, Bethesda, Valve, Epic etc.. have shown that, but it's not necessary for a game to be successful, they also tend to come from developers who are engine creation powerhouses. Modding tools take a long time to develop and Obsidian don't have the time or money for that. The best they can do is use open standards, release specifications/documentation, and release any proprietary plugins they made. The petition should be directed at Unity, if it had free mod tools then devs like Obsidian might be able to consider releasing plugins for them.

[Gizmo]

 

Open formats (all of them).

 

Legend of Grimrock devs [Almost Human], provided a basic map editor and a modest reference page of their object definitions and script interaction [both in Lua]... that's it. But they then published their file formats. The community created scripting frameworks, and even TWO joint effort 3d model & animation convertor tools that can import standard formats and export game ready animation and model assets.

[The model tools were mostly from just one clever programmer, IIRC with help from another's work on animation scaling.]

 

There is no guarantee that that will happen here, but I'd think that it's not very unlikely.  Provide the foundation and I'm fairly certain the fanbase will build on it.

 

** It should also be mentioned that AH are really cool guys that have even sat down and posted open call for easy editor features and coded the requests over a few beers while they sat there in the chat, and the results were in the next update!  Obsidian are really cool guys right?

(I know they are... I remember the hi-res Kotor2 cinematic replacement files they put up ~for free.)

 

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

 

Legend of Grimrock use an engine developed in-house by Almost Human, so they are free to release whatever they want. PoE use the Unity engine, which does have a free version, but no open version, as far as I know. Obsidian can't simply release the tools that were provided to them by Unity when they purchased the pro license.

 

And if I am not mistaken, they already said they plan to release their own file formats, or at least make them easy to edit with common tools. It's just that we won't get the tools they are using to create and edit those files.

 

Anything that's custom and that might need an explanation. I don't mean anything that they can't give away. If they are using straight FBX models, there is no need to explain them, but if they have some strange "lighting-hint-file" (which they probably don't, but it's for example), then tell people what that is and how it works.

 

They already have said that they have five information textures for a background; if it's not obvious what they are or how they are used, or if they are unconventionally made... mention that and how they are done; (for those that are interested).

 

*That is unless they want them as technology secrets, but I can't imagine, unless they developed an awe inspiring industry solution, and they know it.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Gizmo

[sesobebo]

Anything that's custom and that might need an explanation. I don't mean anything that they can't give away. If they are using straight FBX models, there is no need to explain them, but if they have some strange "lighting-hint-file" (which they probably don't, but it's for example), then tell people what that is and how it works.

 

 

They already have said that they have five information textures for a background; if it's not obvious what they are or how they are used, or if they are unconventionally made... mention that and how they are done; (for those that are interested).

 

*That is unless they want them as technology secrets, but I can't imagine, unless they developed an awe inspiring industry solution, and they know it.

 

 

 

pretty much this.

i don't think it's sensible to hope/want for complete all-in-one mod tools like NWNs had (and, more relevant, had been made with), because i think there is no such tool.

going by the updates they're using tools like maya, photoshop, zbrush, as well as their in-house made tools for quests and conversations and such, and it all gets tied together in unity.

 

the best obsidian can do is detail any formats they use to cut out the guesswork, and leave some doors open to plug the custom content into the game.

 

the best we can do is start learning the tools; blender, gimp and unity are all free.

[JFSOCC]

I'd love to get some dev feedback on this. Is it true? Are licenses the limiting factor here?

[Alfiriel]

The Infinity Engine games didn't have much official modding support, yet they survived long-term just fine. From what has been said, it seems like PoE will still be better for modding than those games.

 

.

 

I agree if the game has the same access for modders as IE games it will be ok... just look at all this awesome mods no tools required.

 

That said a healthy modding community is what will maybe make or break this game. With all the areas they promised and the budget they have... combined with the recent news I fear a lack oc rpg content.

 

but... if modders can insert stuff like in IE games... no problem filling the holes here... there are really talented writers out there... creating new areas would most likely be way more difficult.

 

So good modding support may actually helps covering some holes left by the limited budget.

[JFSOCC]

I think what many people missed is that the IE games with their poor mood support have very few mods, and the number that it has is mostly due to the long time period that has passed. compared to the elder scrolls games, or even the last two fallout games, it's peanuts.

[anameforobsidian]

And yet the IE games have the same longevity and level of affection as Fallout.  

Edited February 13, 2014 by anameforobsidian

[JFSOCC]

Maybe here. But really it's impact is still fairly niche. No I have to disagree with you. I don't want to slam the IE games, but to say they've had the same impact as the fallout series is delusional.

[anameforobsidian]

Fallout only has its current level of fame because of Fallout 3, and that has nothing to do with modding.  Here are publications that rank an (or several) Infinity Engine game higher than Fallout 1 or 2.

PCgamer, IGN, Gameinformer, G4TV, metacritic.

That's a pretty strong sign of consensus, of the cultural impact and longevity, if not the actual quality of the game.

[Wizaerd]

I'm a tad bit confused...  This thread is pretty much about asking for modding tools, right?  I had thought an editor was in fact included, it's what drew my attention to this game in the first place, since I looooove editors...  Create new areas, new stories, new quests, etc... Is this not the case?

[MReed]

There are only two things that I'd like to see Obsidian do in the way of mod support:

 

* Release detailed documentation for all file formats used by the game, including links to documentation for "standard" stuff.

* Develop and implement a "WeiDEU" equivalent for PE.

 

For those who are unaware, WeiDEU is a "patching tool" for IE games that understands very well the formats used by these games, and can therefore do things that a simple binary patching tool can only dream of. 

 

For example, it can locate a standard conversation node (in a DLG file), insert a new option, attach a new script to that option, and can do all of this even if other mods have been installed at the same time (as long as the parent conversation node exists, of course -- but if the mod was developed on a computer where there were only 5 options available to start, but the end user has installed other mods that added two choices, your mod won't fail due to the fact that there are 7 options instead of 5.  Similar functionality is available to add an NPC to an existing area, items to a shop or container, and so forth.

 

WeiDEU is even smart enough to check to see if the parent /exists/ and branch based on whether or not it does or not -- this allows mods to detect one anothers presence, and install additional components if some other mod is installed.  This is, for example, how the "Banter Packs" for BG1 and BG2 work with other mods:  If you have mod X installed, and the banter pack supports mod X, then it will add banters for the new NPCs introduced in mod X if the user desires.  If mod X isn't installed, though, no big deal -- you just wont have the option to install that content, and the rest of the installation will proceed normally.

 

Developing WeiDEU was the thing that made the IE modding community feasible, far more than all of the editors and the like that exist.  Prior to WeiDEU, the only way to mod the game was whole sale replacement of files (via the "Override" folder), which meant that if two mods needed to add a creature to an area they were incompatible without a significant amount of extra developer work.  To be exact, the user would need to open the conflicting files up in an editor, identify the changes, then create a new override file that included both sets of changes and place /that/ file in the override folder.

 

Integrating WeiDEU type functionality into the base game offers loads of advantages to any potential modding community:

  * A GUI can be integrated into the main game to install, uninstall, and view currently installed mods.

  * With a standard file format established from the get-go, it is far more likely that mods will be compatible with one another.

  * It should be fairly inexpensive to do.

[Karkarov]

I'm a tad bit confused...  This thread is pretty much about asking for modding tools, right?  I had thought an editor was in fact included, it's what drew my attention to this game in the first place, since I looooove editors...  Create new areas, new stories, new quests, etc... Is this not the case?

From all current evidence... nope that is not the case at all.  Apparently they will not be supporting mods in any form.  Will it be possible to mod the game?  Yes.  But you can already mod any game if you have the tools.  In this case it looks like anyone who wants to mod it is going to need a Unity License..... good luck buying one of those.

[sesobebo]

 

I'm a tad bit confused...  This thread is pretty much about asking for modding tools, right?  I had thought an editor was in fact included, it's what drew my attention to this game in the first place, since I looooove editors...  Create new areas, new stories, new quests, etc... Is this not the case?

From all current evidence... nope that is not the case at all.  Apparently they will not be supporting mods in any form.  Will it be possible to mod the game?  Yes.  But you can already mod any game if you have the tools.  In this case it looks like anyone who wants to mod it is going to need a Unity License..... good luck buying one of those.

 

 

wrong and wrong.

 

- not providing the tools is not the same as not supporting the mods.

so far all that i've seen, that has been said by obsidian folks about modding, has been along the lines "we will try to support modding" and "it will not be mod un-friendly".

 

- unity is free,

as long as You don't try to make a profit of it.

[Karkarov]

wrong and wrong.

 

- not providing the tools is not the same as not supporting the mods.

so far all that i've seen, that has been said by obsidian folks about modding, has been along the lines "we will try to support modding" and "it will not be mod un-friendly".

 

- unity is free,

as long as You don't try to make a profit of it.

Uh no, they aren't supporting modding at all.  The game is being made with Unity, which means you can use Unity to mod it.  Just like any other game made with Unity.  But per their own interviews they are not doing anything to assist actual modders or making any kind of tool to make modding easier.  Read the more recent interviews.

 

Also no PC game is "mod unfriendly", any game can be modded even games that are designed not to be.  It is just a matter of how much work the modder has to put in to do it.