rjshae Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 Not quite. Were there romances in the Icewind Dale series? No. I'd say then the idea is only half baked. Better no romance than a weakly implemented story line. Spend the resources on the remainder of the plot. I do hope you're not implying that either of the Icewind Dale games had better plots than Baldur's Gate II? The IWDs were churned out in the quickest time possible, and in terms of plot, characterisation and companions are not much use as an example for anything. EDIT: Sorry, Josh. You're taking my example out of context, so clearly not. I'm saying the original poster used the BG series as the justification for including romances. I'm pointing out that the game is intended to be the spiritual successor to the IE series, not just BG. Thus the justification is logically weak in that regard. A good story can be written regardless of whether it includes romances. Because of the budget constraints, adding writing about romances reduces effort in other areas; it's a zero-sum game. What I'm hoping for is a well-written story that has at least some amount of emotionally compelling context. It isn't necessary to include romances to accomplish that point. If they wanted to include romances, then fine. If they don't, then that's fine as well. 1 "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."
Nonek Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 We do gods work. For it shall be written: Drive forth the promancer and cast him from thy garden, for he is deviant and without virtue. Suffer not his kind to live among thee, for verily he shall bring forth wedding mods. And thou shalt know this villain by his cry, the cry of squee. 10 Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin. Tea for the teapot!
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 Should we start taking bets on how long it takes for someone to mod romance into the game? Excellent idea Kaine, when can we expect your first Mod around a Romance offering in PoE ? The fervor of the anti-romance crowd is what makes this decision so annoying. I don't care about romances nearly as much as I hate seeing a roomful of three-year old twits get their way. How long until we get a troll romance mod? Three weeks after release. "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "you're a damned filthy lying robot and you deserve to die and burn in hell." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "I love cheese despite the pain and carnage." - ShadySands
Jajo Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 Meanwhile the idea that removing romance relationships from even being an option for the main character does not compute to "better and more in depth character relationships". Again, I am sorry many romance haters seem to confuse one sided NPC's and bad writing with "romance is the problem" but no.... the problem is bad writing and bad NPC's. Taking one possible relationship type totally out of the game for the main character actually eliminates an entire "character interaction" option from the game. That is the opposite of "more in depth relationships with characters." I skipped quoting the rest of the post, because I either agree with it, or understand it and think that it makes a fair point. The last paragraph irks me, though. Removing a part of the spectrum limits the possibilities of options, not number of options. The number of options is limited only by the budget they have for writing characters (this holds true until we reach a great enough budget to have the possibility of covering all the spectrum of choices). And this is the main point. They obviously feel like they'd rather spend their budget on exploring other parts of the character interaction spectrum, than exploring the one that has been done over and over and over again just to make it (hopefully) less cheesy. Not writing romances absolutely does not men, that there will be quantitatively less character interaction options. It means, that most possibly, there will be options we haven't seen before. Also, as one should not confuse bad writing with "romances are bad" (I agree completely), one should also not confuse romance haters, bad romance haters and romance idontgivea****ters. 4
Kjaamor Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) Not writing romances absolutely does not men, that there will be quantitatively less character interaction options. It means, that most possibly, there will be options we haven't seen before. See, the first sentence is true, but the second is false, and the justification provided for the second being true is the same justification that makes the first sentence true. Developing characters down realms of emotion and interaction that do not include romance does not, in any way, guarantee or even suggest that the realms of emotion and interaction that are used will be new, even within the context of the IE games. Edited February 11, 2014 by Kjaamor 2 Other kickstarter projects to which I have no affiliation but you may be interested: Serpent in the Staglands: A rtwp gothic isometric crpg in the style of Darklands The Mandate: Strategy rpg as a starship commander with focus on crew management
Monte Carlo Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 We do gods work. For it shall be written: Drive forth the promancer and cast him from thy garden, for he is deviant and without virtue. Suffer not his kind to live among thee, for verily he shall bring forth wedding mods. And thou shalt know this villain by his cry, the cry of squee. Don't forget the inventory-slot babies and elven fairy wings. 2
Endrosz Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 Also I don't understand why Obsidian wouldn't want to include something in PoE that the majority of fans want Critical error detected; reformatting user's brain to conform with reality. Please stand by. 3 The Seven Blunders/Roots of Violence: Wealth without work. Pleasure without conscience. Knowledge without character. Commerce without morality. Science without humanity. Worship without sacrifice. Politics without principle. (Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi) Let's Play the Pools Saga (SSI Gold Box Classics) Pillows of Enamored Warfare -- The Zen of Nodding
PrimeJunta Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 They did promise memorable companions as one of their core "spiritual successor" planks. I think it's premature to worry that they're going to renege on that, even if romance is out. There was a ton of companion interaction in MotB, for example, with romance only extremely peripheral (and, IMO, not well done at all). Same goes for KOTOR2, except that one didn't have any romance in it at all. I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com
Nonek Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 Sir I loved my lightsaber! 2 Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin. Tea for the teapot!
Monte Carlo Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 Let's play detective. Avellone, very early in the development cycle, told us he didn't like romances. If he was forced to do one it would be a 'hate-mance.' Sawyer wouldn't be drawn on it. Romance was never part of the initial pitch. The community was split - for every BruceVC there's a spiteful troll like me and someone who couldn't be bothered (so that's 2/3 people more or less against or not bothered). --- Hold on why I compute this data. * whirring noise * --- Magic eight-ball says.... Nope. Was never gonna happen. Promancers are so needy you could issue them tee-shirts saying NO ROMANCE and they'd still be asking which NPC is going to be their bestest LI. For the record, and for newer forum-goers (hi!) the reason folks like me are so against romances are (a) I find them strangely icky (b) it's natural for lobby for stuff you do want as opposed to stuff you don't (promancers seem to think the romance goblin leaves the reams of writing under MCA's pillow, they virtually write themselves) and (worst of all) ( c ) the announcement of romances would be like casting a 'Summon BSN' spell on my favourite little corner of the internet. 2
Fluffle Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 They did promise memorable companions as one of their core "spiritual successor" planks. I think it's premature to worry that they're going to renege on that, even if romance is out. I rather worry when romance becomes the only way of memorable companions. Or when people think it is the only way. Now Obsidian has the chance to prove once and for all that this does not have to be the case. 11 "Loyal Servant of His Most Fluffyness, Lord Kerfluffleupogus, Devourer of the Faithful!" *wearing the Ring of Fire Resistance* (gift from JFSOCC)
Monte Carlo Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 They did promise memorable companions as one of their core "spiritual successor" planks. I think it's premature to worry that they're going to renege on that, even if romance is out. I rather worry when romance becomes the only way of memorable companions. Or when people think it is the only way. Now Obsidian has the chance to prove once and for all that this does not have to be the case. And you know they'll do it. I'm perfectly confident they will. 2
Jajo Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 Not writing romances absolutely does not men, that there will be quantitatively less character interaction options. It means, that most possibly, there will be options we haven't seen before. See, the first sentence is true, but the second is false, and the justification provided for the second being true is the same justification that makes the first sentence true. Developing characters down realms of emotion and interaction that do not include romance does not, in any way, guarantee or even suggest that the realms of emotion and interaction that are used will be new, even within the context of the IE games. The second statement is my prediction and also a speculation. That's why I've used most and possibly and not guarantee, like you have. Without a direct quote from the devs it can not be proven to be true, nor can it be proven to be false. Ever. Making an accurate statement for the future was not its purpose. Its purpose was to show a possibility. So including the word possibly felt like an appropriate choice. As for the justification: My justification for making this statement is, that since writers will be spending time writing characters they will now have to spend more time writing about other parts of characters, not romances. The reason why romances will not be included may also apply to other parts of the spectrum. This would further make the proportion of "unexplored" areas towards "explored" in favor of the former. And that's my justification for my prediction. 1
IndiraLightfoot Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) I don't mind if romances are in or not, as long as they make sense and play out in a believable way. As it is now, I've only encountered Twilight-like belieber romance in games, if you get my drift. In DAO, after a few friendly and supportive words, I had Alistair all over me like a sweaty pig. I never knew what hit me! Almost all my favourite games had some kind of romance in them, but I certainly didn't seek those options out deliberately, so DAO pops up as an absurd memory. So, Karkarov is indeed spot on, when he says it's all a matter of how well written the NPCs and the romances are. So far, I have never encountered anything in computer games that approaches the quality of romance in good novels, for instance. Also, I deeply share Fluffle's hope that Obsidian will present us with lovely and engaging relationships with NPCs, regardless of romance, which in a computer game seems almost a mirage. Edited February 11, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot 11 *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***
Jajo Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) double post Edited February 11, 2014 by Jajo
Stun Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) Why is there romance in every rpg today... because of BG2 which without any grafical representation really made me care for my groupmates and be happy for them when they found happines together. Simply by great storytelling. A game claiming to hit in the same direction should have the same character depth as Bg2 or Planscape. Show this new age games the power of good written interactions. They can do this without the lovey-dovey Romances. In fact, they did that with BG2 and Planescape Torment. A couple of the Romances in BG2 (especially Jahiera's) weren't really "romances" at all. They were simply good friendships. And I'd argue that the only reason they felt "deep" was because BG2 is a huuuuge game and Bioware did a decent job of spreading out the NPC interjections from beginning to end to make it feel like you were in a long term relationship with the NPC. You really DID get to know your party members...on a personal level. And PS:T? There weren't any romances in that game. There were 2 flirt sessions with Annah, and a lingering memory of one (Deionarra). Yet there's almost universal agreement that of all the IE games, Planescape did it best. Edited February 11, 2014 by Stun 2
BruceVC Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 Also I don't understand why Obsidian wouldn't want to include something in PoE that the majority of fans want Critical error detected; reformatting user's brain to conform with reality. Please stand by. That made me laugh But its true if you look at all the polls, I would say it was constantly at about 65-70 % of people who wanted some form of Romance...we can't hide from facts guys....we can't hide from the facts 2 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Kjaamor Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 The second statement is my prediction and also a speculation. That's why I've used most and possibly and not guarantee, like you have. Without a direct quote from the devs it can not be proven to be true, nor can it be proven to be false. Ever. Making an accurate statement for the future was not its purpose. Its purpose was to show a possibility. So including the word possibly felt like an appropriate choice. As for the justification: My justification for making this statement is, that since writers will be spending time writing characters they will now have to spend more time writing about other parts of characters, not romances. The reason why romances will not be included may also apply to other parts of the spectrum. This would further make the proportion of "unexplored" areas towards "explored" in favor of the former. And that's my justification for my prediction. Upon further examination, your prediction is, whilst practically ridiculous, logically sound, and since the original reason I pulled you up over it was over its logical value, I shall have to apologise. Sorry about that. Other kickstarter projects to which I have no affiliation but you may be interested: Serpent in the Staglands: A rtwp gothic isometric crpg in the style of Darklands The Mandate: Strategy rpg as a starship commander with focus on crew management
rjshae Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 But its true if you look at all the polls, I would say it was constantly at about 65-70 % of people who wanted some form of Romance...we can't hide from facts guys....we can't hide from the facts Speaking of hiding from the "facts", can you provide a link to these polls? I'd like to see if it was an unbiased poll of randomly selected gamers or a self-selected group who have a particular interest in elements of romance. Thanks. "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."
Stun Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 If the devs feel like they don't want to write romances, it's better they don't. Look at Alpha Protocol, they were not very good and lo and behold, Chris Avellone didn't really want them in the first place. If developers feel motivated in writing romance options, then by all means, go ahead.In fact, Obsidian has never done a good romance. Ever. Look at NWN2, and Mask of the Betrayer. Brilliantly written Characters in Both, but the Romances were god-awful. Cringeworthy. total black marks on both titles. So yeah, if Obsidian sucks so spectacularly at writing romances, then I'd rather they not taint POE by trying again. 2
IndiraLightfoot Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 POE nightmare chat up lines: 1) Me love you long time! 2) Nice beaver! 3) Your eyes are windows to a pure soul. Keep 'em coming, folks! *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***
BruceVC Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 But its true if you look at all the polls, I would say it was constantly at about 65-70 % of people who wanted some form of Romance...we can't hide from facts guys....we can't hide from the facts Speaking of hiding from the "facts", can you provide a link to these polls? I'd like to see if it was an unbiased poll of randomly selected gamers or a self-selected group who have a particular interest in elements of romance. Thanks. I know you'll think the polls were biased, but you can find them all if you do an Advanced Search on the PoE forums. Use the key words " Romance Poll". There are about 7-8 topics that will come up that you can read 1 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
tajerio Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 They did promise memorable companions as one of their core "spiritual successor" planks. I think it's premature to worry that they're going to renege on that, even if romance is out. I rather worry when romance becomes the only way of memorable companions. Or when people think it is the only way. Now Obsidian has the chance to prove once and for all that this does not have to be the case. I completely agree with the sentiment, but...hasn't Obsidian proven this already? Kreia and Kaelyn the Dove are two of my ten most memorable companions in any game ever, and ain't no romancing going on there. 2
ManifestedISO Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 Never wanted a Bio-mance or Romeo's Juliet, just a nice, tawdry, illicit affair, tactfully implemented with an edge that when crossed, could reduce my character to a pile of ash, same as a mage's spell. All Stop. On Screen.
rjshae Posted February 11, 2014 Posted February 11, 2014 But its true if you look at all the polls, I would say it was constantly at about 65-70 % of people who wanted some form of Romance...we can't hide from facts guys....we can't hide from the facts Speaking of hiding from the "facts", can you provide a link to these polls? I'd like to see if it was an unbiased poll of randomly selected gamers or a self-selected group who have a particular interest in elements of romance. Thanks. I know you'll think the polls were biased, but you can find them all if you do an Advanced Search on the PoE forums. Use the key words " Romance Poll". There are about 7-8 topics that will come up that you can read Okay then, I'll have to consider them biased polls since the audience is self-selected. Thanks. "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."
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