No romances confirmed

[Hiro Protagonist II]

There's little realism to them. It's a fantasy idealised relationship that's quite far removed from reality. As kirottu said, "You put "niceness coins" in until you get rewarded with sex." pretty much sums it up. It's a pre-determined choose your own adventure dialogue tree where you go on a certain path and get rewarded at the end. And that is not how it is in real life, because life is all random and one thing you could do today might seem nice but after 50 times, it may get annoying.

 

I wonder what a romance would be like if there was no pre-determined dialogue tree and the game just selected random dialogue options. Would you get annoyed if the npc you're romancing said the same thing 50 times and it comes across as nagging?

[Arkeus]

I'm curious about the violently anti-romance folks, the ones who are currently dancing on the graves of the pro-romance folks' hopes. If a game of this sort were to include a romance that actually contributed to the story rather than being a sort of pseudo-Japanese dating sim where you choose the right dialogue options and are rewarded with sex and the everlasting affection of your chosen Waifu, would you object? Are you against romance as an entire concept in RPGs or just against romance as defined by Bioware since BG2?

I am against romance in a RPG that doesn't focus on romance or the romance isn't used to support the theme of the story- it can work in, say, MoTB or P:ST because in both case it supports the theme of the story. The romance was built-in as part of the tale, not as a choice given to the player if he wants 'something more'. Keep in mind that both game were relatively small and had a very "niche" concept/demograpgy of players.

 

Likewise, a RPG that's all about romance can work.

 

OTOH, i am very much against romance in a more traditional RPG where you aren't a named character with a specific character arc. Yes, it could thereotically be done well, be the effort to do so would mean that instead we could have had so much things that are just flat out more apropos.

[Woldan]

Sad to hear that, in my opinion well-designed romances add a lot to the overall gaming experience. And if you don't like them, no big deal, simply skip them. Oh well...

[Lephys]

There's little realism to them. It's a fantasy idealised relationship that's quite far removed from reality. As kirottu said, "You put "niceness coins" in until you get rewarded with sex." pretty much sums it up. It's a pre-determined choose your own adventure dialogue tree where you go on a certain path and get rewarded at the end. And that is not how it is in real life, because life is all random and one thing you could do today might seem nice but after 50 times, it may get annoying.

And bananas are mushy, brown, and disgusting.

 

Oh, wait... that's just the bad ones.

 

What you're doing would be akin to judging "movement" in general, in video games, and saying "It's really primitive and stupid. You can only move in one of the 4 cardinal directions, and you move one whole grid block at a time." There. We shouldn't have movement in video games.

 

(See how that's inaccurate?)

Edited February 13, 2014 by Lephys

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Nice strawman, but no.

 

Moving in general is not the same. I can decide to go in this tavern or not. I can do this side quest or not. I can still finish the game without having to do most of the side quests. I can royally stuff up a quest and take a rep hit and it's not the end of the game. I can skip a lot of stuff and get to the end of the game. With the romance dialogue tree, I can't decide to stop following the dialogue tree and expect to skip to the end of the romance. Otherwise, why bother having a dialogue tree when you have an option to skip to the end? It defeats the purpose of romancing the character if there's always an option that says (d) Skip to the end of romance. As I said, it's pre-determined along the dialogue tree and you can't deviate from the path. One wrong choice and it's usually over. You don't have the same freedom of movement in a dialogue tree as you do with moving your character around in the game world.

 

I'm not anti-romance. I don't mind romance in games. I liked the BG2 romances. I just don't see it as an issue if they're excluded from games.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[seiya]

Sad to hear that, in my opinion well-designed romances add a lot to the overall gaming experience. And if you don't like them, no big deal, simply skip them. Oh well...

 

Same. I'm rather disappointed with the news. It didn't need to be anything gratuitous but a little, persistent flirtation at least, provided they were well-written, would have been nice.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

 

I'm curious about the violently anti-romance folks, the ones who are currently dancing on the graves of the pro-romance folks' hopes. If a game of this sort were to include a romance that actually contributed to the story rather than being a sort of pseudo-Japanese dating sim where you choose the right dialogue options and are rewarded with sex and the everlasting affection of your chosen Waifu, would you object? Are you against romance as an entire concept in RPGs or just against romance as defined by Bioware since BG2?

I am against romance in a RPG that doesn't focus on romance or the romance isn't used to support the theme of the story- it can work in, say, MoTB or P:ST because in both case it supports the theme of the story. The romance was built-in as part of the tale, not as a choice given to the player if he wants 'something more'. Keep in mind that both game were relatively small and had a very "niche" concept/demograpgy of players.

 

Likewise, a RPG that's all about romance can work.

 

OTOH, i am very much against romance in a more traditional RPG where you aren't a named character with a specific character arc. Yes, it could thereotically be done well, be the effort to do so would mean that instead we could have had so much things that are just flat out more apropos.

 

 

PS:T and MotB were actually precisely the examples I was thinking of when it comes to romance in an RPG being done well...at least to an extent. 

 

SPOILERS AHEAD if you're such a sheltered RPG fan that you haven't played the above two games.

 

 

 

Think Deionarra, who plays a pivotal role in the plot of PS:T. At various points, she helps you because she's desperately in love with you. Except, as you soon learn, the incarnation she fell in love with was a sociopath. He cared nothing for her and was simply manipulating her feelings in order to use her as a trump card in case his plans at the Fortress of Regret didn't pan out. She was in love with a lie.

 

And then you arrive...and now she's essentially in love with a second lie. You don't really remember her at all, beyond the odd snippet of memory. You share the same body with the one she fell in love with, but in virtually all respects save for the occasional flashback, you are a completely different person. What does it even mean to fall in love with someone like the Nameless One, even in the best of circumstances? Do you continue loving the shell after one incarnation has passed into another? Do you recognize that an incarnation can share the same physical form and yet be a completely different person and move on with your life? What would you do if you met (what you believe to be) the love of your life and one day that person was gone...but their physical form is still just fine, merely inhabited by someone else?

 

And how does your TNO respond to this situation? As cruel as the Practical incarnation was, you'll eventually discover that if he hadn't done what he did, the game would be unwinnable. Do you follow in Practical's footsteps and use her to your own benefit? Do you tell white lies to avoid hurting her? Do you gently let her down by reminding her that even if Practical had loved her, you aren't him?

 

Her role in the game strengthens it and poses interesting questions. PS:T is a better game because of her love for TNO. And yet there is never a Bioware-style string of dialogue interactions which leads to a fade-to-black sex scene or any of that. PS:T existed before such nonsense became popular.

 

Likewise with Safiya of MotB, though less so. The romance with her provides an echo of the past. She is a fragment of the founder, for whom Akachi went to war against his own god. You are the vessel for Akachi himself. She eventually declares that she has fallen in love with you...but what does that even mean? Maybe its just another echo, and the essence of the Founder in her is scrambling her judgement when in the presence of Akachi's host. Pose that idea to her, and she is rightfully disturbed. I still think this bit of plot could have been done better, especially since I always felt that NWN2 NPCs tended to spring their undying love on you rather out of nowhere. But the idea was cool and very much fit with the plot and strengthened it.

 

Is that acceptable RPG 'romance', people? Where it isn't trying poorly to mimic a Japanese dating sim but exists to strengthen the plot? Or is hugging and kissing in general just gross and juvenile for a protagonist in an RPG?

[Arkeus]

PS:T and MotB were actually precisely the examples I was thinking of when it comes to romance in an RPG being done well...at least to an extent. 

 

Is that acceptable RPG 'romance', people? Where it isn't trying poorly to mimic a Japanese dating sim but exists to strengthen the plot? Or is hugging and kissing in general just gross and juvenile for a protagonist in an RPG?

 

And they were romances put in to strenghten a specific type of theme, which is impossible and not wanted unless you decide to make your RPG around such a theme.

 

If you want to make a RPG more in the lines of BG/IWD where it's about exploration/quests/dungeons and not a single theme, this simply does not fit well.

 

Not to say it's impossible, but it goes down to the 'difficulty enough to manage that instead of putting a single good romance you could have put thousands of lines of dialogues fleshing out antagonists/etc'.

 

Basically, a waste unless you have a stupidly high qualified manpower.

[Ieo]

I think it's funny that this thread has descended into another "why for/why against" thread, but I can't say I didn't see that coming, along with the noobs who start more threads about it, I guess. All those posters who say "I don't understand why blah blah blah--" this has been rehashed to death with explanations in previous threads, in circles (which is why it's pointless). See below.

 

Basically this topic has officially entered the console/multiplayer/tablet realm of "They made their decision so accept it." You guys (and gals) who want to live your anime-dating sim "I spend lots of money on gifts and maybe I'll get lucky after this date" fantasies can go ahead and write a fanfic mod for it. C'mon, you live for that stuff, and no one's stopping you. Heck, I'm cheering you on, see? (And I really don't consider Deionarra a game romance by any stretch of the imagination--that non-party NPC was written solely for the sake of the primary storyline, as Arkeus points out. Unless PE would have been written with that kind of storyline, it can't work. That was content unique to PS:T.)

 

 

For the new people who have no idea about the previous arguments brought forth, save yourself some time and educate yourself.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61515-romance-and-friendship/
(page 11 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61515-romance-and-friendship/page__st__200)

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61676-the-unofficial-pe-relationshipromance-thread/
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61768-unofficial-pe-relationshipromance-thread-pt2/
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61886-unofficial-pe-relationshipromance-thread-pt-3/

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62215-relationshipromance-thread-iv/

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

PoE needs to be a turn-based multiplayer romance-centric game released on consoles and tablets.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

And they were romances put in to strenghten a specific type of theme, which is impossible and not wanted unless you decide to make your RPG around such a theme.

 

If you want to make a RPG more in the lines of BG/IWD where it's about exploration/quests/dungeons and not a single theme, this simply does not fit well.

 

Not to say it's impossible, but it goes down to the 'difficulty enough to manage that instead of putting a single good romance you could have put thousands of lines of dialogues fleshing out antagonists/etc'.

 

Basically, a waste unless you have a stupidly high qualified manpower.

 

What makes you think PoE won't have a specific type of theme? Probably one of the most vocally requested features for PoE is a strong story. You can have a strong central theme, a strong story, strong character development and still include plenty of combat and exploration and character customization. In fact, that's what I'm hoping for.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

Basically this topic has officially entered the console/multiplayer/tablet realm of "They made their decision so accept it." You guys (and gals) who want to live your anime-dating sim "I spend lots of money on gifts and maybe I'll get lucky after this date" fantasies can go ahead and write a fanfic mod for it. C'mon, you live for that stuff, and no one's stopping you. Heck, I'm cheering you on, see? (And I really don't consider Deionarra a game romance by any stretch of the imagination--that non-party NPC was written solely for the sake of the primary storyline, as Arkeus points out. Unless PE would have been written with that kind of storyline, it can't work. That was content unique to PS:T.)

 

So a non-party NPC who advances the plot through her romantic interest in your character isn't a real 'game' romance? Alright, that's a start. For a 'romance' to be acceptable in a game, the NPC must:

 

1) Not be a member of the party.

 

2) Advance the plot through her interest in your character.

 

I dunno. I just sense a severe lack of imagination on the part of many people here as to how such a thing could be added to an RPG without it being a juvenile Bioware-style romance, where you get to pick and choose from your selection of hot NPC sidekicks. The baby is thrown out with the bathwater and the only kind of 'romantic' plotline they can imagine is an anime dating sim. 

 

I'd actually quite like to see an RPG romance that takes a page from something like The Hunchback of Notre Dame (book, not Disney) in allowing you to pursue a love interest but it ultimately leading to an utter train wreck, with everyone involved worse off for it happening.

[Stun]

I'm curious about the violently anti-romance folks, the ones who are currently dancing on the graves of the pro-romance folks' hopes. If a game of this sort were to include a romance that actually contributed to the story rather than being a sort of pseudo-Japanese dating sim where you choose the right dialogue options and are rewarded with sex and the everlasting affection of your chosen Waifu, would you object? Are you against romance as an entire concept in RPGs or just against romance as defined by Bioware since BG2?

Contributed to the story? No, my opinion wouldn't change, except for maybe changing to be more anti-romance. Moving Romances to the front and center, to the point where they become elements/branches of the main plot... well, that IS what Bioware's been doing in their games these last few years. And the so-called "anti-romance" folks have already voiced their opinions on Bio-romances in this thread.

 

I have a better question. Why does it have to be a Romance? Why aren't we asking for better friendships instead? Is a close friendship/bond with a fellow party member simply not "cool" or "interesting" enough? Does it not count unless there's kissing, "love" and other tropes that work better in chick-flicks than they do in combat-centric RPGs?

Edited February 13, 2014 by Stun

[Stun]

What makes you think PoE won't have a specific type of theme?

Now that's a good question. It probably will. The theme will be... souls.

 

And I suppose they could work Romances into such a theme. You know, where you fall in love with an NPC and then you become "soulmates", and then some wizard does soul magic on your LI, and you two wake up in the morning and suddenly start arguing like enemies until you have to draw your weapons.

 

:::cue combat music:::

 

lol

Edited February 13, 2014 by Stun

[Death Machine Miyagi]

 

I'm curious about the violently anti-romance folks, the ones who are currently dancing on the graves of the pro-romance folks' hopes. If a game of this sort were to include a romance that actually contributed to the story rather than being a sort of pseudo-Japanese dating sim where you choose the right dialogue options and are rewarded with sex and the everlasting affection of your chosen Waifu, would you object? Are you against romance as an entire concept in RPGs or just against romance as defined by Bioware since BG2?

Contributed to the story? No, my opinion wouldn't change, except for maybe changing to be more anti-romance. Moving Romances to the front and center, to the point where they become elements/branches of the main plot... well, what's what Bioware's been doing in their games these last few years. And the so-called "anti-romance" folks have already voiced their opinions on Bio-romances in this thread.

 

I have a better question. Why does it have to be a Romance? Why aren't we asking for better friendships instead? Is a close friendship/bond with a fellow party member simply not "cool" or "interesting" enough? Does it not count unless there's kissing, and "love"?

 

 

I mentioned Deionarra as an example from PS:T. If you played PS:T, do you think that romantic interest was poorly handled?

 

And as for the friendship thing, I'd love more developed friendships. Frankly, I love the entire idea of deeper character development of all sorts and all descriptions: friends, siblings, mentors, students, colleagues, whatever. The more developed, and the more inventive, the better.  I hold no special affection for romance, personally, but neither do I hold any special animosity just because Bioware does such a horrendous job of it. If its done well, by an intelligent designer who knows how to incorporate it into the game without it feeling forced or juvenile, I have no problems. 

 

What weirds me out about the extreme anti-romance views is that the same logic I've seen used around here could be applied to any in-depth NPC relationship. What, you don't have any real friends so you have to pretend to be best buddies with your NPC sidekick in a computer game? You helped the poor Gith through the Circlet of Zerthimon, does that mean is Dak'kon your new imaginary friend now, you big loser?

 

Well...no. That's just an absurd line of argument. Well done character development is a good thing, whatever form it takes. 

[Stun]

I mentioned Deionarra as an example from PS:T. If you played PS:T, do you think that romantic interest was poorly handled?

Deionarra doesn't count. It's not a romance. It's a memory of a romance. And yes, at that moment (in the crystal, after you deal with your other incarnations) when Deionarra appears and you tell her that you've "grown to love her", it feels.... Cheap. The emotion isn't Really LOVE. It's remorse masquerading as love. The game does a brilliant job clubbing you over the head, over and over and over, with guilt from what the Practical incarnation did to her.

 

And as for the friendship thing, I'd love more developed friendships. Frankly, I love the entire idea of deeper character development of all sorts and all descriptions: friends, siblings, mentors, students, colleagues, whatever. The more developed, and the more inventive, the better.  I hold no special affection for romance, personally, but neither do I hold any special animosity just because Bioware does such a horrendous job of it. If its done well, by an intelligent designer who knows how to incorporate it into the game without it feeling forced or juvenile, I have no problems.

Yea, but that's the thing. No one can do romances well in video games. In fact, I've been burned enough to become fully disillusioned. I've come to the realization that if given a choice between a superficial "sex-based" video game relationship, and a romance-based video game relationship, I'll take the former. Because with the former, there's at least the eye-candy factor to fall back on. Case in Point: Witcher 2's sex vs. Mask of the Betrayer's Romances.

 

Winner: Witcher 2. I'll take my experiences with Ves and Trish, over anything Obsidian gave us with Safiya and Gann.

 

What weirds me out about the extreme anti-romance views is that the same logic I've seen used around here could be applied to any in-depth NPC relationship.

 

What, you don't have any real friends so you have to pretend to be best buddies with your NPC sidekick in a computer game? You helped the poor Gith through the Circlet of Zerthimon, does that mean is Dak'kon your new imaginary friend now, you big loser?

 

Well...no. That's just an absurd line of argument. Well done character development is a good thing, whatever form it takes.

Well, I can't speak for the others, but that doesn't apply to me. I've given my specific reasons for disliking the Romances in the RPG's I've played and ultimately the reasons I didn't like them is that they felt either forced, or mechanical.

 

Forced: The LI confronts you and flat out says: "I love you... do you love me? Please answer with a Yes or No.

Mechanical: The system in place is what determines the success or failure of the romance. (the more gifts you give, the more they love you)

 

^there's nothing else. And it's interesting to note that People are citing PS:T as having "Good Romances". But if that's your citation then you're in the Anti-romance camp and you don't even realize it. PS:T didn't HAVE romances. It had 2 flirt sessions and an EX-romance that had to be resolved.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Stun

[DCParry]

Wow. 

 

Just wow. This thread really reminds why I have basically stopped coming the forums. Complete lack of moderation turns something like this into a field day of flames and troll bait. It is an RPGCodex annex or something. 

 

Way to go fellas. 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

No, Obsidian is neither the BSN or the Codex. It's somewhere between the two extremes. Both come and visit and soon realise it's not what they're used to and will usually go running back to their respective homes.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[BruceVC]

No, Obsidian is neither the BSN or the Codex. It's somewhere between the two extremes. Both come and visit and soon realise it's not what they're used to and will usually go running back to their respective homes.

 

I agree, I don't have any issues with the level of debate on these forums. I think people get over-sensitive. There will always be a degree of emotions when it comes to certain topics, but we can handle it. We are adults. I really don't like the idea of Moderators having to close down interesting discussions because some people can't handle the topic. Life isn't always about rainbows and unicorns. I also have no  issues with BSN and there level of debate and since I don't frequent RPGCodex I can't comment

[Foamhead]

I just want a romance that is lengthy and well written. I have always felt Bioware could have done bigger and better but seems to be stuck in the same cycle of:

 

Player: "HI!"

NPC: "Hello."

 

(Finds NPC's lost hanky)

 

Player: "I think you are attractive."

NPC: "Oh God oh God I need you inside me right now!"

 

(Reverse the last two sentences if you are a female player)

 

I believe Obsidian has the best writers in the RPG business, but Chris Avellone's frankly immature and condescending attitude towards love and romance turns me off. Since this game is looking like another dungeon crawl hack and slash I doubt I'll be buying it regardless.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Foamhead

[Foamhead]

I'm curious about the violently anti-romance folks, the ones who are currently dancing on the graves of the pro-romance folks' hopes. If a game of this sort were to include a romance that actually contributed to the story rather than being a sort of pseudo-Japanese dating sim where you choose the right dialogue options and are rewarded with sex and the everlasting affection of your chosen Waifu, would you object? Are you against romance as an entire concept in RPGs or just against romance as defined by Bioware since BG2?

 

it wouldn't matter, because most people who hate them simply believe they are "real RPG fans" by hating things that are popular.

[PrimeJunta]

@Death Machine Miyagi I figure that since I'm in the "anti-mance" camp, although I hope not in its violent wing, here's my two cents.

 

My problem with cRPG romance is with the "push the right buttons, get teh secz" flavor thereof. The real problem is that most promancers appear to think that this is, in fact, the definition of cRPG romance. It's certainly exactly what it is in every BioWare game since BG2. Even if done reeeasonably well (Jade Empire), I still find it tacky, and that its very presence detracts from the overall experience.

 

Of the IE games and their successors, IMO only Planescape: Torment pulled off romance well. It even had three whole possible romances: Annah, Fall-from-Grace, and Deionarra. Yet most promancers here appear to feel that they're not romances at all, because they're never consummated and there's no happily-ever-after.

 

So I'm strongly opposed to romance as wish-fulfilment or pandering. If romance is integral to the story, and if the writers are good and dedicated enough to give the NPC's a real feel of agency, then I'm all for it.

 

However, these romances would not look at all like the harem-anime things we have in all BioWare games since BG2, nor even the truncated wish-fulfilment versions in NWN2 or MotB, so I doubt most promancers would even accept that they are romances. And we'd be right back where we started. In threads like this one.

[Monte Carlo]

Wow. 

 

Just wow. This thread really reminds why I have basically stopped coming the forums. Complete lack of moderation turns something like this into a field day of flames and troll bait. It is an RPGCodex annex or something. 

 

Way to go fellas. 

 

Really? Really?

[BruceVC]

Well I have to share something, I have never been to the RPGCodex forums before and I went now for the first time to read the comments around Obsidians decision not to have Romance. All I can say is I'm shocked by the rudeness and bigoted comments from some members. Sexist comments and jokes about rape seem normal there. There are several people on these forums who I respect immensely who are active members there and I know don't think like that but seriously don't the Moderators on RPGCodex enforce forum rules? Or am I being oversensitive.... 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Welcome to the internet. Enjoy your stay.