Playing other Kickstarter funded games makes me nervous

[milczyciel]

Project Management is incredibly boring - when things are going well.

So here's hope that Pillars of Eternity PM is the most boring of them all.

[Ferrante]

In my opinion, Shadowrun Returns was a very poor game. There was so little depth and scope that I felt bored after about 2 hours in. While the plot and setting were interesting, they didn't make up for the lack of solid content.

 

I think that if that game did not have the Shadowrun name attached to it, it would have been criticised much more harshly. I really hope PoE does not turn out that way.

 

I like SR, but is true the lack of solid content. It seems a game made for modders, not for players. I'm serious when I say I buy a game to play it, not to make it. Not even to patch it with new stuff or something. The game must be complete.

I never modified my Baldurs Gate II and my first play was 150+hours without find a lot of secret stuff or some find quests. A friend of mine is playing it now and he has more than 250 hours and has just started TOB. I was hoping a 100+ hours game (I slow for the games, so probably that could be 60+ hours for some people), and to see some of your comments make me sad, because I realize is possible PE could be shorter.

[keiichimorisato98]

 

 

I think Obsidian will get things done and do it right, but there will be a definite delay (unfair to hold them accountable for a date they were forced to place before pre-production really began).

 

Also, Wasteland 2 looks to be shaping up quite nicely. I heard some iffy things about it (combat too simple, for one), but inXile came back around and laid me fears to rest in their last update. I guess not all the features are in yet, so it cannot be judged fully, but it looks great so far, and sounds like great additions will be coming to beta players soon.

 

I got Broken Age, but haven't played it yet. All I'm hoping for is a game as good as Grim Fandango or Full Throttle or Monkey Island... Great story, memorable characters, great puzzles.

 

Broken Age has the great story and memorable characters, for certain, but the puzzles are (mostly) pretty straightforward, particularly for the veteran adventure gamer. Definitely not bad mouthing it and I'm planning on playing it again soon.

 

 

Urg, well I'll have to give it a shot soon. Bad puzzles can turn an adventure game into an interactive movie. I'm looking at you, Dreamfall.

 

hey! interactive movies aren't a bad thing… though if that was not it's intent then i guess it's a bad thing… but it's all about the intent of the creator and how well the story is told.

[Sir Chaox]

 

 

 

I think Obsidian will get things done and do it right, but there will be a definite delay (unfair to hold them accountable for a date they were forced to place before pre-production really began).

 

Also, Wasteland 2 looks to be shaping up quite nicely. I heard some iffy things about it (combat too simple, for one), but inXile came back around and laid me fears to rest in their last update. I guess not all the features are in yet, so it cannot be judged fully, but it looks great so far, and sounds like great additions will be coming to beta players soon.

 

I got Broken Age, but haven't played it yet. All I'm hoping for is a game as good as Grim Fandango or Full Throttle or Monkey Island... Great story, memorable characters, great puzzles.

 

Broken Age has the great story and memorable characters, for certain, but the puzzles are (mostly) pretty straightforward, particularly for the veteran adventure gamer. Definitely not bad mouthing it and I'm planning on playing it again soon.

 

 

Urg, well I'll have to give it a shot soon. Bad puzzles can turn an adventure game into an interactive movie. I'm looking at you, Dreamfall.

 

hey! interactive movies aren't a bad thing… though if that was not it's intent then i guess it's a bad thing… but it's all about the intent of the creator and how well the story is told.

 

 

I suppose you are right, if the interacting is well done.

 

Dreamfall was a severe disappointment for me; most of the game involved bringing object A to place A, watch a cutscene, bring object B to place B, watch a cutscene, etc. etc.... You essentially just guide your character from one scene to the next. Didn't really care much for the story either. I really liked The Longest Journey (which had a great balance of gameplay and story).

[Bryy]

Every game mechanic and gimmick - even DLC, F2P, and microtranscations - can be done well. It's a fallacy to denounce a feature just because it exists. It's all about execution. 

[Anaeme]

I am happy they have stuck with RTwP...give the game a better chance to succeed

Edited January 26, 2014 by Anaeme

[Sir Chaox]

Every game mechanic and gimmick - even DLC, F2P, and microtranscations - can be done well. It's a fallacy to denounce a feature just because it exists. It's all about execution. 

 

Most of the time, whatever is offered just isn't worth it; the amount of content for the price is pitiful, especially compared to the good old expansion packs

[Osvir]

I watched an infuriating Let's Play of some half-wit guy playing through Broken Age (He was talking about the solution, 10 seconds later when he was at the right area he turns around and decides to do something else and contradicts what he just said! It was a streamed recording, and he was constantly trying to get attention from his audience so I guess that's why). The game and story looked fun and very interesting, in general it's an interesting story really.

That they blew out of budget meant they didn't have a very strict budget planning or project planning. What I've read it seemed they went kind of loosely about it.

It's a bit of an Oliver Twist complex/syndrome... but reversed.

I enjoyed Shadowrun: Returns a lot, but something about it feels lacking. As if there's an option that's supposed to be there that isn't there, and I can't pin-point it. But I like the story and the aesthetics, it was the combat gameplay bit that I wanted something more out of.

FTL is awesome, like others have said, it is a great game concept. Easy to play, but difficult to conquer. 

Currently playing some Divinity: Original Sin with a friend, and it is great. Lots of choices in character building throughout the game (in dialogues and in character creation). Lots of stuff that I laugh out loud about that you encounter and stuff that happens, it feels a little bit Monty Python-ish at times. Haven't gotten very far at all, but I'm looking forward to its growth a lot :D 

But I am curious, can Divinity: OS be called a Kickstarter game? Because in the Kickstarter Larian said "This game is coming, but we want to add more stuff into it. Which is why we ask you etc. etc.", it's more like the extra content they wanted to add in was Kickstarted. No matter~ just sentiments (is that the right word I'm looking for? Err.. no, I meant semantics).

No worries here. Kickstarted projects are more interesting by definition in my opinion, they have a different history and were only made available and possible thanks to fans and community.

[Jobby]

To be fair surely PoE could be considered not wholly Kickstarted considering that the startup costs of setting up an office were not taken into account but then again I don't know, either way I would like to think that a developer like Obsidian would be willing to put down some of their capital to polish the game if required (rather than re-lease an un-finished product if budgeting constraints prove too tight).

 

Not that i expect this to happen as they appear fairly responsible, but I do remember Sawyer saying somewhere that Environmental art proved to be quite expensive (unsurprising given it's high quality)

 

Out of curiosity does anyone know roughly what percentage of the market kickstarter occupies? What i mean is that effectively there have been $4milllion worth of pre-orders, what percentage of the actual market for this game is that?

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Out of curiosity does anyone know roughly what percentage of the market kickstarter occupies? What i mean is that effectively there have been $4milllion worth of pre-orders, what percentage of the actual market for this game is that?

 

A drop in the ocean.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

 

Every game mechanic and gimmick - even DLC, F2P, and microtranscations - can be done well. It's a fallacy to denounce a feature just because it exists. It's all about execution. 

 

Most of the time, whatever is offered just isn't worth it; the amount of content for the price is pitiful, especially compared to the good old expansion packs

 

I agree. I don't buy DLCs, because the price : product ratio is an insult. Given the original content of the game, they expect me to pay a major percentage of the original titles just to get a grenade launcher, or some stupid pet, or perhaps a singular mission? Screw you! Much better to wait 12-18 months and get the full game, all delux content, and every DLC & expansion for 30-50% off what the original title alone cost a release. Economists have a term for this. It's call time preference. Staying a year to a year and a half behind the game release curve yields many advantages.

 

I enjoyed Shadowrun: Returns a lot, but something about it feels lacking. As if there's an option that's supposed to be there that isn't there, and I can't pin-point it. But I like the story and the aesthetics, it was the combat gameplay bit that I wanted something more out of.

 

I can't say I enjoyed Shadowrun Returns. I wanted to believe in it, but didn't trust the development team enough nor Microsoft's licensing demons to fund it. Mech Warrior II was great and all, but I can't recall what those guys had made since. The game would have been great for....a Sega Genesis game, but we've moved a bit beyond that stage. While I understand their budgetary constraints and IP fiasco, I didn't enjoy the art direction, character development, meaningless "conversations", or the general plot. I played through it twice in as different ways as I could manage, but I just failed to appreciate it. I wanted to, and tried, but to give it an easy pass would be disingenuous.

 

As I've said many times before though, I don't have any significant fears for P:E. I trust the team implicitly with what they are doing and how they are doing it. Finally, while meager, their budget should be sufficient to accomplish their goals.

[jedolley]

They were both shams......Shadowrun Returns had the DRM scandal when they intended to pull some shady shenanigans on their backers and turn all the DLC the backers funded ass stretch goals for a DRM-free game into content only to be sold via Steam, essentially cheating everyone and forcing everyone to start worshiping DRM.

 

And all there has to be said about Broken Age is "Tim Schafer".....that should require no explanation and should instantly kill all expectations for that game. The dude grossly miss-managed 800%+ funding and decided to only make half a game in hopes it would make enough overblown profits for him to miss-manage in order to create the second half....and then he was trolling and insulting backers who were upset at the fact that now the second half of the game may never see the light of day and all the backer funds will end up as wasted on a crappy half game.

 

I had a bad feeling about both of those shams from the start, I just didn't feel like they deserved to be trusted with money, I was right and I am proud to say neither will ever see a cent from me.

 

I think SR:R is a bad example  and should not be compared to PoE. First, I believe it only raised about $2 mil from KS and pre-orders and then you have to take into consideration that they had to pay Microsoft for licensing (which also contributed to the DRM snafu).  That said, I enjoyed SR:R and for the $15 I payed for it, I thought it was a good value. I have much bigger expectations for PoE, though and haven't seen anything that suggests I will be disappointed.

[Bryy]

 

Out of curiosity does anyone know roughly what percentage of the market kickstarter occupies? What i mean is that effectively there have been $4milllion worth of pre-orders, what percentage of the actual market for this game is that?

 

A drop in the ocean.

 

Yeah, it really... gets to me... when I go on NeoGAF or - shudder - BioWare Social and see people raging about how their forum is that companies entire fanbase. Or that Kickstarter will end publishers as we know it.

 

I love Kickstarter. But I am not going to join in some Doom And Gloom Apathy circlejerk. 

 

Also, this is a real interesting article:

http://evilasahobby.com/2014/01/18/kickstander-only-around-a-third-of-kickstarted-video-game-projects-fully-deliver-to-their-backers/

[Jobby]

I have to admit i don't frequent Bioware forums anymore as (for me) their games have lost their soul as the years go on, I would like to think/hope that Kickstarter could generate enough momentum through reputable projects/companies to provide a genuine alternative to conventional publishers though.

 

Regarding the article I don't like the finality/negativity of the term "undelivered" and it's apparent importance to the kickstarter movement/trend, I don't like the idea of the public putting unreasonable pressure on developers and thus forcing them to release unfinished buggy games. Much like a lot of Obsidians problems with publishers in recent years, KOTOR2 being one of my biggest gaming disappointments in recent years, (FF11 onwards aside).

 

I would like a Kickstarted game to represent more than just "the publishers didn't want it so this is our last option" but rather a platform that could provide developers with a comfortable working environment that allows them to express their creativity as well as some kind of moral responsibility towards the consumer in regards to not releasing unfinished "broken" games that given a few months extra development time could have been great.

 

Sadly the funds raised from kickstarter probably aren't sufficient to create this kind of environment due to the manpower cost required to create these great epics we all remember so fondly, and as I have come to realise over time, fans are just as, if not more demanding of a developer than a publisher, the only difference being that they don't have the legal power to force the developers hand.

 

I suppose the point I am trying to make is that I would hope that backers would support a delayed re-lease date in exchange for a better game and that this should never be considered a negative thing to do but rather shows the type of desire and passion for a project that has been sorely missed in recent years.

[JFSOCC]

 

 

KOTOR2 being one of my biggest gaming disappointments in recent years KOTOR2 being one of my biggest gaming disappointments in recent years

Your argument is invalid.

[Bryy]

I have to admit i don't frequent Bioware forums anymore as (for me) their games have lost their soul as the years go on, I would like to think/hope that Kickstarter could generate enough momentum through reputable projects/companies to provide a genuine alternative to conventional publishers though.

It won't. What it will do, and is already doing, is create an outlet for side projects.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Bryy

[Jobby]

How so? Did you play the first one? I expected so much more after that game personally. Admittedly i played the game only once shortly after release (perhaps patches and "unfinished business" style mods have brought it closer to what it could have been but so many issues and blatantly unfinished dialogues/quests/story branches overshadowed what could have been a great game imo.

[Jobby]

 

I have to admit i don't frequent Bioware forums anymore as (for me) their games have lost their soul as the years go on, I would like to think/hope that Kickstarter could generate enough momentum through reputable projects/companies to provide a genuine alternative to conventional publishers though.

It won't. What it will do, and is already doing, is create an outlet for side projects.

 

 

You probably right as the inner cynic in me already knows, but a man can hope surely?

[Quetzalcoatl]

Since the Kotor vs Kotor 2 comparison seems inevitable, I'll just leave this here:

 

[Greensleeve]

Since the Kotor vs Kotor 2 comparison seems inevitable, I'll just leave this here:

 

-snip-

 

Look, it's not really fair comparing things to KotOR 2. Like anything. It's one of the best games of all time, after all. 

 

Also, getting shivers of remembrance seeing that screenshot of Darth Sion. That was truly an implacable, terrifying villain. 

Edited January 27, 2014 by Greensleeve

[Bryy]

 

 

I have to admit i don't frequent Bioware forums anymore as (for me) their games have lost their soul as the years go on, I would like to think/hope that Kickstarter could generate enough momentum through reputable projects/companies to provide a genuine alternative to conventional publishers though.

It won't. What it will do, and is already doing, is create an outlet for side projects.

 

 

You probably right as the inner cynic in me already knows, but a man can hope surely?

 

It's only cynical if you let that GAMING IS DYING attitude fester. Just enjoy games. Don't make it any more complicated.

 

I mean, unless you want to spend your days blaming EA for the ills of the world. 

[Lephys]

I mean, unless you want to spend your days blaming EA for the ills of the world.

Nah. Just for the ills of their games. Honestly.

 

But, yeah, people do tend to act like "Oh no! EA are the BORG! Resistance is futile! ASSIMILATE!", instead of just acknowledging that, yes, there was a statistical spike amongst big companies in poor game development decisions.

[Osvir]

@Bryy: It is an interesting article, but it is far from unbiased. Kickstarter is very much in its infancy, and will probably grow with the years to be something bigger and better. Heck, it feels as if every new big project that comes out they've learned a lot from the previous. So if Obsidian would choose to create a second Kickstarter after all the new stretch goals (more companions, more areas) they'd be handling it even better because of experience.

Does any studio have much experience with Kickstarter?

Back to the article, remember, he's covering all Kickstarted game products. That means if there are 100 cases that are bad, then the few ones that are good are taking a hit, or losing credibility and gaining cynism. Project: Eternity and Project 1 are light years from each other. Is it fair to judge "Project: Eternity" based on the "Project 1" results?

EDIT: But then again, maybe Project 1 did see the light of day? 
Author: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/nathanial-benton/33/161/997
Homepage: http://www.fatedhaven.com/
Facebook Activity: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Fated-Haven/218290894869564
Big Fish Games: http://www.bigfishgames.com/download-games/14719/fated-haven-chapter-one/index.html

 

EDIT:

So does this mean that these commentors of this Kickstarter are dim-witted? (HINT: Look at when they commented)
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1248367795/project-1-rpg-game/comments

 

Latest update:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1248367795/project-1-rpg-game/posts/291525

Aug 19, 2012

 

EDIT: But then again, he did release the game in 2011 and then funded it in 2012? HMMMM.... but that's a controversy for another time.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Osvir

[LadyCrimson]

But, yeah, people do tend to act like "Oh no! EA are the BORG! Resistance is futile! ASSIMILATE!", instead of just acknowledging that, yes, there was a statistical spike amongst big companies in poor game development decisions.

EA hasn't exactly been my fave company for a long while, but they're not the devil.

 

Google, on the other hand ...

[Bryy]

So... it's biased via the facts? It's not a negative article or a smear job.

 

Also, Kickstarter is more like in its tweens. The idea of big companies or names doing Kickstarters is a relatively new thing.