Tel Afar, primary school attacked

[Tagaziel]

Which explains our incalculable need to explain things, and why the need to believe in something unknowable feels so real. They are hard-wired into our heads very close to emotion and memory. Like deja vu ... an odd, yet real sensation that was finally isolated and demystified. 

 

But not lessened in impact. Demystifying things like strange or powerful feelings shouldn't take away from them as experiences. How crazy is it that we're alive in the first place, with super-fast mush inside a hard shell capable of processing audio/video input. That's where I think religion fails to account for unbiased spirituality--people say they have the answers, but they all want you to believe in their brand. Usually to pay for the 'privilege' (a la mormonism, where ten percent of your income will get you into a proprietary heaven). Living with one foot in the next life reduces the quality and mystery of our lives here, I think.

Which also explains our evolutionary success. The drive to know and understand.

 

Experience and knowledge exist as complementary halves. One cannot fully grok without experiencing something. At the same time, experiencing without knowing is incomplete. Of course, this comes from the perspective of a person with a fundamentally scientific and naturalist viewpoint.

That's kinda the problem - you can easily argue that spirituality improves peoples lives.

For example meditation has been proven to have health-benefits even if it's not scientifically explained why.

Improves? Yes. But the precise mechanism of it improving people's lives is fundamentally scientific. By pushing the burden of existing off to a mythical entity, even partially, you have less worries in your life. The same by having a stiff, ready made McMoral code that requires no agonizing over what to do.

 

Meditation has been extensively studied and the link is between the way the body reacts to it and how the brain rewires itself during meditation. It's actually mechanism that's understood at a basic level, but the deeper effects are still undergoing research.

[licketysplit]

Malala's views and ideals are also rooted in Islam.

 

That's the trick with these infallible holy texts. It's still about individual interpretation.

[ManifestedISO]

By pushing the burden of existing off to a mythical entity, even partially, you have less worries in your life. 

 

And less pain. When my brother died suddenly, my mom's burden of grief was reduced by her belief that he is still alive, floating around the universe somewhere, unseen. 

 

Which I think is why superstition finally did overpower logic ... because facts and rationality don't give us a hug when someone dies. 

[alanschu]

 

 

How is my statement silly?

Because you made a blanket statement against an entire religion.

 

I could claim that all it takes to send male gamers into a froth is a young woman claiming that women are poorly represented in games.  Just see the ****storm that gets pulled up there.

 

 

A teenage girl with an opinion can freak out a lot of people regardless of whether or not they are a follower of Islam.

[licketysplit]

 

How is my statement silly?

Because you made a blanket statement against an entire religion.

 

I could claim that all it takes to send male gamers into a froth is a young woman claiming that women are poorly represented in games.  Just see the ****storm that gets pulled up there.

 

 

A teenage girl with an opinion can freak out a lot of people regardless of whether or not they are a follower of Islam.

 

 

Then how do you think, in general, women are viewed in Islamic countries?

[Hurlshort]

 

 

How is my statement silly?

Because you made a blanket statement against an entire religion.

 

I could claim that all it takes to send male gamers into a froth is a young woman claiming that women are poorly represented in games.  Just see the ****storm that gets pulled up there.

 

 

A teenage girl with an opinion can freak out a lot of people regardless of whether or not they are a follower of Islam.

 

 

Then how do you think, in general, women are viewed in Islamic countries?

 

 

It really depends on the country.  Again it is a blanket statement.  Plus the fact that Islam exists in every country, not just those with an Islamic government.

[licketysplit]

 

 

 

How is my statement silly?

Because you made a blanket statement against an entire religion.

 

I could claim that all it takes to send male gamers into a froth is a young woman claiming that women are poorly represented in games.  Just see the ****storm that gets pulled up there.

 

 

A teenage girl with an opinion can freak out a lot of people regardless of whether or not they are a follower of Islam.

 

 

Then how do you think, in general, women are viewed in Islamic countries?

 

 

It really depends on the country.  Again it is a blanket statement.  Plus the fact that Islam exists in every country, not just those with an Islamic government.

 

 

Of course it depends on the country. Countries in the middle east, Afghanistan, they treat women like crap. Muslims in western countries or America have less opportunity to do so because they are in western countries, with different social norms. 

 

The issue I see here is people want to excuse the atrocities of another religion so that they can safely justify their own. The other issue is being politically correct for the sake of it..." yes, Islam does that, but Merica is equally bad in this..." please. We are talking about basic human rights here, and North America has at least gotten that much right. You can actually speak your opinion without being stoned to death.

Edited October 12, 2013 by licketysplit

[alanschu]

 

 

Then how do you think, in general, women are viewed in Islamic countries?

 

Lets just pull things back a bit here.  You simply said "Islam" before.  You appear to be moving the goalposts somewhat....

 

If it's an Islam thing, then it doesn't matter where the Islaming is happening.

 

 

And the comment was silly because teenage women stating opinions (or really anyone stating opinions) throws all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds on the defensive.  Plenty of Islamic (and non-Islamic) people championing Malala, so your blanket statement about the Muslim religion is incorrect.  Or, as I put it, silly.

[BruceVC]

 

 

How is my statement silly?

Because you made a blanket statement against an entire religion.

 

I could claim that all it takes to send male gamers into a froth is a young woman claiming that women are poorly represented in games.  Just see the ****storm that gets pulled up there.

 

 

A teenage girl with an opinion can freak out a lot of people regardless of whether or not they are a follower of Islam.

 

 

Then how do you think, in general, women are viewed in Islamic countries?

 

 

I've travelled and worked extensively in the Middle East and it is a fair statement that most Muslim countries follow a certain view of Islam that would be considered conservative to most of us. There is room for improvement around many social issues like womens rights. For example in Saudi Arabia women can't work or even drive a car. But then in UAE ( Dubai) women can work and you can buy alcohol. But then you get an interpretation of Islam from certain groups in places like  Pakistan or Afghanistan that is just medieval and unacceptable. Where women shouldn't be educated and should have no rights at all. As I mentioned this needs to be addressed and condemned.

 

I have come to realize that sometimes we need to just leave certain social fights until a country is ready for the changes. So in Saudi Arabia most of the women seem happy with the status quo. And since Saudi Arabia is a friend to the West we need to be cautious with insisting on changes or trying to enforce our way of life. I believe changes will come naturally in most places

[Lexx]

I tend to believe that the only way to achieve such changes is to bring wealth to these locations. As long as everyone is poor, it simply won't work out at all.

[BruceVC]

 

How is my statement silly?

Because you made a blanket statement against an entire religion.

 

I could claim that all it takes to send male gamers into a froth is a young woman claiming that women are poorly represented in games.  Just see the ****storm that gets pulled up there.

 

 

A teenage girl with an opinion can freak out a lot of people regardless of whether or not they are a follower of Islam.

 

 

I agree that there is a level of sexism and discrimination in certain gaming communities. This needs to be discussed and rejected. So this is also a campaign for equality activists, like me. But I also am opposed to religious fundamentalism

[pmp10]

I tend to believe that the only way to achieve such changes is to bring wealth to these locations. As long as everyone is poor, it simply won't work out at all.

To which locations?

If you mean Afganistan then good luck with that as the only thing we bring is destitution by ending the drug trade.

As for Saudi Arabia I very much doubt that.

Women rights in the west were not won in the suffragette rallies but arms factories.

As long as Muslim world has no desperate need to change women roles in the society they will try to stick to tradition.

[NOK222]

Boy, people sure want to prove how non-racists and non-prejudiced they are. 

[HoonDing]

Tell us how you really feel, NKKK.

[licketysplit]

 

Then how do you think, in general, women are viewed in Islamic countries?

 

Lets just pull things back a bit here.  You simply said "Islam" before.  You appear to be moving the goalposts somewhat....

 

If it's an Islam thing, then it doesn't matter where the Islaming is happening.

 

 

And the comment was silly because teenage women stating opinions (or really anyone stating opinions) throws all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds on the defensive.  Plenty of Islamic (and non-Islamic) people championing Malala, so your blanket statement about the Muslim religion is incorrect.  Or, as I put it, silly.

 

 

This doesn't answer the question. How are independent free-thinking women perceived in Islamic countries? Not American or European countries with muslims, but countries run by muslims?

[NOK222]

Tell us how you really feel, NKKK.

 

Nice use of the delete button there smartass. I've already gave my opinions in this thread. Instead of attacking people and calling them racists and such, debate the points we present and avoid ad hominems. 

[alanschu]

 

 

This doesn't answer the question. How are independent free-thinking women perceived in Islamic countries? Not American or European countries with muslims, but countries run by muslims?

 

I'll answer the question when you acknowledge that not only have you ducked your original assertion, but that you're now moving the goalposts to a completely different discussion.  Deal?

[Hiro Protagonist]

 

I'll answer the question when you acknowledge that not only have you ducked your original assertion, but that you're now moving the goalposts to a completely different discussion.  Deal?

 

 

It's actually you that has changed the goal posts.

 

lickety-split's comment was about Malala Yousafzai from Pakistan. His reply even quoted the video of Malala Yousafazai. Your reply changed the goal posts to North America and took lickety-split's comment out of context.

 

A bit of common sense would go a long way when reading people's posts and what they're actually quoting and in what context. Even I could see his response wasn't about women in Western Countries. Not change the goal posts to North America. Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing, because your quote here comes across as a bit childish. eg. I'm not going to answer your question until you change your stance. na na. Why not just answer likety-split's question?

Edited October 14, 2013 by Hiro Protagonist

[BruceVC]

Boy, people sure want to prove how non-racists and non-prejudiced they are. 

I know that wasn't meant to be funny but the way you said it was funny

[alanschu]

lickety-split's comment was about Malala Yousafzai from Pakistan. His reply even quoted the video of Malala Yousafazai. Your reply changed the goal posts to North America and took lickety-split's comment out of context.

 

 

Here's the exact phrase 

Al[sic] it takes for Islam to be threatened is a teenage girl with an opinion.

 

Note, however, that his reply didn't quote the video.  He simply clicked reply to a series of replies to which one 3 levels deep made reference to the video.

 

 

A bit of common sense would go a long way when reading people's posts and what they're actually quoting and in what context.

 

Commonsense (as opposed to "common sense," if we're wishing to be pedantic) is overrated.  Proper usage of words goes a long way, however.  Islam is a religion.  If he's referring to the governments and societies, it's best to be clear when stating that.  Especially given that equating Islam with the countries is precisely how stereotypes perpetuate.

 

 

Even I could see his response wasn't about women in Western Countries.

 

Well, at least you're willing to acknowledge your own misuse of stereotypes and assumption.  So I'll give you a bit of credit for that.  It should be noted that I made no qualification for where I was referring to people.  That's something you (and arguably he) did.

 

 

Not change the goal posts to North America.

 

I'm referring to ALL Islamic people, and as stated made no such distinction (at any time) to the geography that I was referring to.  Unless you're purporting that the Islamic people that send their Islamic little girls to schools in the Islamic countries (only to be attacked by Al-Qaeda) or not Mulsim....  Or does Malala not have Muslim parents?

 

-----------

Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing,

---------

Let's just be honest here... both of us are.  And he probably is too.  Or are you genuinely attempting to educate me on something?  (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not trying to educate me to equate "Islam" with "All the countries with a large Muslim population" because that's an awful thing to try to educate me upon).

 

----------

because your quote here comes across as a bit childish. eg. I'm not going to answer your question until you change your stance. na na. Why not just answer likety-split's question?

----------

 

It totally is childish.  As is his response to me about how I didn't answer the question when I was pointing out that my response had nothing to do with the [new] question he was now posing (by which he continues to evade responsibility for his usage of the term Islam).  I didn't just answer the question because it deflects away from the actual issue I am addressing.

 

 

"Al[sic] it takes for Islam to be threatened is a teenage girl with an opinion."

 

All it takes for Al-Qaeda to be threatened is a teenage girl with an opinion.

All it takes for alanschu to be threatened is a licketysplit with an opinion on the Islamic religion.

All it takes for licketysplit to be threatened is an alanschu with an opinion that his comment is silly.

All it takes for Hiro Protagonist to be threatened is an alanschu with an opinion that Hiro feels is childish and unnecssarily unconfrontational.

All it takes for America to be threatened is a black woman with an opinion (that she should be allowed to sit in the front of the bus).

All it takes for ALMOST ANYTHING to be threatened is SOMEONE with an opinion [that challenges the status quo].

 

Feel free to fill in the blanks (that is, the capital letters) and it's a silly statement of the obvious that has the unfortunate implications of stereotyping an entire religion and all the followers of it.  And you're living proof that it's a problem since you knew specifically what he was referring to.  And yes, I stand by my statement that callously using the term "Islam" when referring to a specific subset of the religion is irresponsible, and helps reinforce negative stereotypes and is frankly part of the damn problem.

 

 

As for the question, as hopefully my point and reasoning for engaging with him is NOW PAINFULLY clear, here it is:  Women in counties that have large Muslim populations are generally mistreated in that they do not have (what I consider) many of the rights, privileges, and (most importantly) protections that I feel they should have.  I think that the countries have a long ways to go, and in some cases (such as Pakistan) have regressed for a variety of reasons.

 

Now, disassociate the religion from the culture.  Are women treated the way they are in the Muslim world because of the the Quran?  Or are there other cultural aspects that may be contributing (even more so).  The actions of many of the countries in those regions come across as very different than the descriptions of the Quran that I am familiar with.

While the Quran does have some problematic elements in it, with regards to wives (distinction: not all women) being placed under the care of husbands (distinction: not all men), it's actually pretty explicit on how men and women are seen as equals before God, and has a pretty strong history (especially at the time) of enabling women as well as advocacy for equality between the sexes.

 

 

Some confounding variables, however, are that many of the countries with large Muslim populations suffer from cultural challenges with respect to their traditions as well as their government types.  No country in the Muslim World is considered a Full Democracy, with most being considered Authoritarian or Mixed Regimes.

 

Though I'm speculating at this point, I'd wager there continues to be cultural influences that continue to undermine women, as even North America and Europe still find themselves suffering from a lot of problematic issues in terms of gender/sex discrimination.

Edited October 14, 2013 by alanschu

[BruceVC]

 

lickety-split's comment was about Malala Yousafzai from Pakistan. His reply even quoted the video of Malala Yousafazai. Your reply changed the goal posts to North America and took lickety-split's comment out of context.

 

 

Here's the exact phrase 

Al[sic] it takes for Islam to be threatened is a teenage girl with an opinion.

 

Note, however, that his reply didn't quote the video.  He simply clicked reply to a series of replies to which one 3 levels deep made reference to the video.

 

 

A bit of common sense would go a long way when reading people's posts and what they're actually quoting and in what context.

 

Commonsense (as opposed to "common sense," if we're wishing to be pedantic) is overrated.  Proper usage of words goes a long way, however.  Islam is a religion.  If he's referring to the governments and societies, it's best to be clear when stating that.  Especially given that equating Islam with the countries is precisely how stereotypes perpetuate.

 

 

Even I could see his response wasn't about women in Western Countries.

 

Well, at least you're willing to acknowledge your own misuse of stereotypes and assumption.  So I'll give you a bit of credit for that.  It should be noted that I made no qualification for where I was referring to people.  That's something you (and arguably he) did.

 

 

Not change the goal posts to North America.

 

I'm referring to ALL Islamic people, and as stated made no such distinction (at any time) to the geography that I was referring to.  Unless you're purporting that the Islamic people that send their Islamic little girls to schools in the Islamic countries (only to be attacked by Al-Qaeda) or not Mulsim....  Or does Malala not have Muslim parents?

 

-----------

Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing,

---------

Let's just be honest here... both of us are.  And he probably is too.  Or are you genuinely attempting to educate me on something?  (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not trying to educate me to equate "Islam" with "All the countries with a large Muslim population" because that's an awful thing to try to educate me upon).

 

----------

because your quote here comes across as a bit childish. eg. I'm not going to answer your question until you change your stance. na na. Why not just answer likety-split's question?

----------

 

It totally is childish.  As is his response to me about how I didn't answer the question when I was pointing out that my response had nothing to do with the [new] question he was now posing (by which he continues to evade responsibility for his usage of the term Islam).  I didn't just answer the question because it deflects away from the actual issue I am addressing.

 

 

"Al[sic] it takes for Islam to be threatened is a teenage girl with an opinion."

 

All it takes for Al-Qaeda to be threatened is a teenage girl with an opinion.

All it takes for alanschu to be threatened is a licketysplit with an opinion on the Islamic religion.

All it takes for licketysplit to be threatened is an alanschu with an opinion that his comment is silly.

All it takes for Hiro Protagonist to be threatened is an alanschu with an opinion that Hiro feels is childish and unnecssarily unconfrontational.

All it takes for America to be threatened is a black woman with an opinion (that she should be allowed to sit in the front of the bus).

All it takes for ALMOST ANYTHING to be threatened is SOMEONE with an opinion [that challenges the status quo].

 

Feel free to fill in the blanks (that is, the capital letters) and it's a silly statement of the obvious that has the unfortunate implications of stereotyping an entire religion and all the followers of it.  And you're living proof that it's a problem since you knew specifically what he was referring to.  And yes, I stand by my statement that callously using the term "Islam" when referring to a specific subset of the religion is irresponsible, and helps reinforce negative stereotypes and is frankly part of the damn problem.

 

 

As for the question, as hopefully my point and reasoning for engaging with him is NOW PAINFULLY clear, here it is:  Women in counties that have large Muslim populations are generally mistreated in that they do not have (what I consider) many of the rights, privileges, and (most importantly) protections that I feel they should have.  I think that the countries have a long ways to go, and in some cases (such as Pakistan) have regressed for a variety of reasons.

 

Now, disassociate the religion from the culture.  Are women treated the way they are in the Muslim world because of the the Quran?  Or are there other cultural aspects that may be contributing (even more so).  The actions of many of the countries in those regions come across as very different than the descriptions of the Quran that I am familiar with.

While the Quran does have some problematic elements in it, with regards to wives (distinction: not all women) being placed under the care of husbands (distinction: not all men), it's actually pretty explicit on how men and women are seen as equals before God, and has a pretty strong history (especially at the time) of enabling women as well as advocacy for equality between the sexes.

 

 

Some confounding variables, however, are that many of the countries with large Muslim populations suffer from cultural challenges with respect to their traditions as well as their government types.  No country in the Muslim World is considered a Full Democracy, with most being considered Authoritarian or Mixed Regimes.

 

Though I'm speculating at this point, I'd wager there continues to be cultural influences that continue to undermine women, as even North America and Europe still find themselves suffering from a lot of problematic issues in terms of gender/sex discrimination.

 

 

Okay I think I get what you are saying? Basically you don't like Gypsies and think they are after our jobs and want to influence our established Western lifestyles?

 

Or am I misreading your posts....

 

[Hiro Protagonist]

Here's the exact phrase 

Al[sic] it takes for Islam to be threatened is a teenage girl with an opinion.

 

Note, however, that his reply didn't quote the video.  He simply clicked reply to a series of replies to which one 3 levels deep made reference to the video. 

 

His reply did quote the video as said by you in 'a series of replies'.

 

 

Commonsense (as opposed to "common sense," if we're wishing to be pedantic) is overrated.  Proper usage of words goes a long way, however.  Islam is a religion.  If he's referring to the governments and societies, it's best to be clear when stating that.  Especially given that equating Islam with the countries is precisely how stereotypes perpetuate.

 

If you're going to be pedantic, then at least use common sense in its correct format.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/common+sense?s=t

 

Yes, proper words do go a long way. So how about using it in its correct format.

 

 

Well, at least you're willing to acknowledge your own misuse of stereotypes and assumption.  So I'll give you a bit of credit for that.  It should be noted that I made no qualification for where I was referring to people.  That's something you (and arguably he) did.

 

Acknowledge my own misuse of stereotypes and assumptions? LMAO. Nice strawman tactic there.

 

And you didn't use North America? I guess your response is a figment of everyone's imagination even though you did use it.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64475-tel-afar-primary-school-attacked/?p=1379023

 

Yep, you didn't refer to North America in that post. That post there must be referring to another North America that doesn't exist.

 

 

I'm referring to ALL Islamic people, and as stated made no such distinction (at any time) to the geography that I was referring to.  Unless you're purporting that the Islamic people that send their Islamic little girls to schools in the Islamic countries (only to be attacked by Al-Qaeda) or not Mulsim....  Or does Malala not have Muslim parents?

 

 

Look above. You did state a geographical location. Stop lying and trying to weasel your way out of this.

 

 

Let's just be honest here... both of us are.  And he probably is too.  Or are you genuinely attempting to educate me on something?  (I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not trying to educate me to equate "Islam" with "All the countries with a large Muslim population" because that's an awful thing to try to educate me upon).

 

 

Where are you going with this comment? Another strawman tactic? Troll bait? 

 

 

It totally is childish.  As is his response to me about how I didn't answer the question when I was pointing out that my response had nothing to do with the [new] question he was now posing (by which he continues to evade responsibility for his usage of the term Islam).  I didn't just answer the question because it deflects away from the actual issue I am addressing.

 

 

So you admit to resorting to childish responses. This is the sort of responses you're now lowering yourself to.    

 

 

As for the question, as hopefully my point and reasoning for engaging with him is NOW PAINFULLY clear, here it is:  Women in counties that have large Muslim populations are generally mistreated in that they do not have (what I consider) many of the rights, privileges, and (most importantly) protections that I feel they should have.  I think that the countries have a long ways to go, and in some cases (such as Pakistan) have regressed for a variety of reasons.

 

Was that so hard to say? Why did it take so long including a wall of text to answer a simple question? Did answering this push you off the fence of political correctness and you're now uncomfortable in stating the bleeding obvious? Because stating things like this is a big no-no. You might be labelled as a bigot or anti-muslim or anti-whatever because you dared to speak out against the conditions of women in predominately muslim countries? You can be critical of something without be anti-muslim (or anti-whatever) about it.

 

Everything else in your post was just a rant on rubbish, red herrings and off-topic stuff.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TrashMan]

[licketysplit]

Meh forget it, not worth arguing over. 

[Nepenthe]

Meh forget it, not worth arguing over. 

 

^^ that's what defeat looks like. Savour it.