LOL, Durability has been removed

[SunBroSolaire]

 

 

 

Does anyone actually prefer for crafting to be attached to the skill system?

I do, but I would have made crafting a very different animal altogether.

I'm ok with the current solution.

 

I do as well. If it isn't a skill, then what? All characters and parties are equally capable of Crafting/Alchemy/Cooking? There's no progression? Why even have Crafting in the game then? Might as well just find new items instead of new item recipes.

 

 

 

Crafting may involve other skills, skills that aren't named "Crafting".

 

Besides, who says there needs to be progression? BG2 crafting wasn't fun?

 

What do you mean? It doesn't even sound to me like individual characters will be doing crafting anymore. Sounds like we won't be able to create a dedicated smith or alchemist character.

 

Crafting in BG2 wasn't very fun.

[Tale]

There's no progression? Why even have Crafting in the game then? Might as well just find new items instead of new item recipes.

Most crafting systems use multiple progressions, so taking out only one progression system from them doesn't eliminate all progression. You still hide the materials and recipes behind gates, they're just not gated to the skill system.

 

I think the big benefit to players in crafting is the ability to customize your own rewards.

[SunBroSolaire]

 

There's no progression? Why even have Crafting in the game then? Might as well just find new items instead of new item recipes.

Most crafting systems use multiple progressions, so taking out only one progression system from them doesn't eliminate all progression. You still hide the materials and recipes behind gates, they're just not gated to the skill system.

 

That's not character progression, that's just pacing.

[Hormalakh]

They never said crafting is out. Where did you get that?

 

 

* Removing durability as a mechanic on items.

* Removing the Crafting skill (specifically).  The crafting system and its associated mechanics will remain, as-is.

"The crafting system and its associated mechanics will remain, as-is."

Edited July 5, 2013 by Hormalakh

[SunBroSolaire]

Obviously crafting is still in.

[Tale]

That's not character progression, that's just pacing.

Pacing is the tempo of highs and lows. Combat segments to puzzles, that sort of thing. The opening of gates that yield rewards to open yet other gates is progression.

 

Whether or not it fits the definition of character progression (and whether you define that as character skill or character sheet) seems beside the point of whether or not it is part of progression systems. There is a progression. You won't be able to deck yourself out in +5 equipment at level 1. You have to earn that by getting the recipes and associated materials.

 

And it does provide additional benefits to the player that aren't handled by straight equipment drops. Which is far more important than what word you want to call it.

[Hormalakh]

I think mechanics (subsystems) of the crafting system are still in:

 

-herbalism

-cooking

etc

 

I think these subsystems are still in. They've jut taken out the "Crafting skill" mechanic that repairs and deals with item durability. They'll likely have another similar mechanic for creating armor, weapons, and shields.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Hormalakh

[Cultist]

Sample size? More than half of those who voted in Sensuki's poll said durability belonged in PE. The load minority got it removed.

Oh, that is familiar. You'll fit right on at BSN. "Let's alienate part of our fanbase with this decision! So what someone will hate it? We know better what you players want and can live without unfaithful who will not buy anything we make."

[teknoman2]

i didnt mind durability for the items, however it is true that the a general crafting skill that makes items last longer is a bit forced. something that would make it a party wide useful skill, would be if it worked in synergy with other skills.

ie someone who crafts weapons, would get a special attack that would allow him to identify a weakness in his enemy's weapon and break it (a wizard with the same skill could melt the weapon)...

someone who makes armor, would know all vulnerable spots in the enemy's armor and could get more criticals with physical attacks, while a wizard would know that a metal armor actualy redirects electrical damage towards the ground and protect's the wearer better from lightning attacks...

anyone who crafts poisons, would get a bonus to his resistance to toxins...

a creator of magical items, could determine the properties of an item held by an enemy, allowing the party to make tactical decisions and so on

[rjshae]

That seems fair. So the main reasons they were doing durability is to give the crafting skills a party-wide use so you don't dump it on only one character and as a sink in the economy.

 

I'd like to think they can still handle the economy without it. Which leaves it existing to do little more than justify a skill. Removing the skill, but not associated functionality of crafting, seems to be the more elegant solution to that little problem. That's probably how I'd prefer it. I haven't played too many RPGs where having crafting be a skill sink actually improved things.

 

Does anyone actually prefer for crafting to be attached to the skill system?

 

Crafting always felt like a non-adventuring skill to me -- it's something you learn through lots of practice in a workshop. Simple crafting skills like cooking, repairing a strap in your armor, and honing your blade: sure. But learning to craft a masterwork blade by slaughtering ogres: not so much. If you need to use a work bench to craft something sophisticated, then it feels more in character to hire a craftsman and his team of assistants to help you do it.

[TrashMan]

Frankly I'm dissapointed.

 

 

People overreacted (as usual) and declared the durability system horrible a priori, the devs got scared (as usual) and followed the brainless masses (as usual).

Fools forever blind to the potential.

 

[ManifestedISO]

^^ No, you didn't read what actually happened.

[rjshae]

Frankly I'm dissapointed.

 

 

People overreacted (as usual) and declared the durability system horrible a priori, the devs got scared (as usual) and followed the brainless masses (as usual).

Fools forever blind to the potential.

 

It deem seem like a small group was angrily howling at the moon over a detail that was really pretty minor. I wasn't impressed.

[SunBroSolaire]

 

Sample size? More than half of those who voted in Sensuki's poll said durability belonged in PE. The load minority got it removed.

Oh, that is familiar. You'll fit right on at BSN. "Let's alienate part of our fanbase with this decision! So what someone will hate it? We know better what you players want and can live without unfaithful who will not buy anything we make."

 

You mean the guys who changed the ending of their 'Magnum Opus' because of popular demand? The same guys who shoehorn in cringe-inducing romances at every opportunity for fan service? And the same guys who removed the entire inventory and exploration systems from the first ME game because people criticized them?

 

It's irrelevant anyway. Being uncompromising is only a good thing if you're actually talented to begin with. It can be assumed that game designers at Bioware are not. Tim Cain, Josh Sawyer, Chris Avellone and company are. 

[Nonek]

My arms and armour won't degrade at all?

 

Damn!

 

Pardon my uncharacteristic profanity.

[Micamo]

I say good riddance. Then again, I'm not exactly at the core of Eternity's target audience, so what do I know?

[Ieo]

 

Frankly I'm dissapointed.

 

 

People overreacted (as usual) and declared the durability system horrible a priori, the devs got scared (as usual) and followed the brainless masses (as usual).

Fools forever blind to the potential.

 

It deem seem like a small group was angrily howling at the moon over a detail that was really pretty minor. I wasn't impressed.

 

 

So basically y'all admit having no faith that Sawyer and his team would have: good judgment to recognise minor "whinage" as exactly that--minor and forgettable; the intellect to prioritize their own mechanics and systemic design; and the decision-making balls to keep and discard what they feel is both true to PE and beneficial to player enjoyment. (You must have missed his responses later in the update thread, too.)

 

If a "minor detail" is received between lukewarm and negatively by some significant number of players, at least those interested enough to follow the KS updates and actually voice opinion, obviously it should be easily discarded or heavily tweaked precisely because it's "minor." (Though I'd argue it wasn't minor when tied to crafting that way, and the mere addition as a "gold sink" and little else beyond making crafting more useful are all the wrong reasons. They weren't adding it as resource management.)

[Nonek]

Ah I may be just a bitter old man, but i've seen twenty years of feature stripping and streamlining to the point that there is no game, just a cinematic experience being shown to you rather than an interactive game to participate in. Therefore I always prefer that features should be retained and improved, rather than jettisoned arbitrarily. However I could get over the MMO aping combat mechanics without campaigning for their change, so i'll do the same with my equipment now being impervious to all harm.

 

I'm sure Obsidian will still make a good game.

[Sacred_Path]

So basically y'all admit having no faith that Sawyer and his team would have: good judgment to recognise minor "whinage" as exactly that--minor and forgettable; the intellect to prioritize their own mechanics and systemic design; and the decision-making balls to keep and discard what they feel is both true to PE and beneficial to player enjoyment.

There is one thing that makes me nervous, and that's the sequence of events here:

 

 

- devs give a short snippet of information about a mechanic in the game

 

- a relatively small number of people (relatively small compared to number of backers, forum members and active posters) start to whine and bitch

 

- Josh says "I thought you would like this feature/ what would you like instead (to spend your money on)?"

 

- feature is removed

 

 

The specifics behind this decision are everyone's guess.

 

edit: note that #3 is what really worries me

Edited July 6, 2013 by Sacred_Path

[centurionofprix]

Ah I may be just a bitter old man, but i've seen twenty years of feature stripping and streamlining to the point that there is no game, just a cinematic experience being shown to you rather than an interactive game to participate in. Therefore I always prefer that features should be retained and improved, rather than jettisoned arbitrarily. However I could get over the MMO aping combat mechanics without campaigning for their change, so i'll do the same with my equipment now being impervious to all harm.

 

I'm sure Obsidian will still make a good game.

Not exactly arbitrarily in this case, given that there was a reason for doing away with it, and given that Sawyer wasn't so confident in the mechanic himself. The original IE games didn't have durability mechanics, so it's not really even a case of feature stripping from some prior point - if anything, Eternity seems to be adding quite a bit of complexity onto the IE template. Just not this particular idea, which didn't seem to work very well.

 

 

There is one thing that makes me nervous, and that's the sequence of events here:

 

 

- devs give a short snippet of information about a mechanic in the game

 

- a relatively small number of people (relatively small compared to number of backers, forum members and active posters) start to whine and bitch

 

- Josh says "I thought you would like this feature/ what would you like instead (to spend your money on)?"

 

- feature is removed

 

 

The specifics behind this decision are everyone's guess.

 

Maybe it wasn't so much about the number of people, or the whining and bitching, but rather that there were good reasons for getting rid of the mechanic.

Edited July 6, 2013 by centurionofprix

[Stun]

Besides, who says there needs to be progression? BG2 crafting wasn't fun?

BG2 had crafting?

 

I don't remember that. I remember it had Broken artifact pieces that you had to search the game world for, then once you found them, you took them to some dwarf who put them back together for a repair fee. That's not crafting. That's Scavanger hunting.

 

It was fun, as was practically everything in BG2. But I'm of the opinion that IF a game is going to boast that it has crafting, then the crafting itself should be done by the player, and the results should be based on the player's power, level, class and wealth. Otherwise it should just take the BG2 route, and not claim it has crafting.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Stun

[Nonek]

 

Ah I may be just a bitter old man, but i've seen twenty years of feature stripping and streamlining to the point that there is no game, just a cinematic experience being shown to you rather than an interactive game to participate in. Therefore I always prefer that features should be retained and improved, rather than jettisoned arbitrarily. However I could get over the MMO aping combat mechanics without campaigning for their change, so i'll do the same with my equipment now being impervious to all harm.

 

I'm sure Obsidian will still make a good game.

Not exactly arbitrarily in this case, given that there were good reasons for doing away with it, and given that Sawyer wasn't so confident in the mechanic himself. The original IE games didn't have durability mechanics, so it's not really even a case of feature stripping from some prior point - if anything, Eternity seems to be adding quite a bit of complexity onto the IE template. Just not this particular idea, which didn't seem to work very well.

 

 

To me Baldur's Gate was a bit too streamlined, but i'd just finished a playthrough of the old Ultima collection as I remember, so it was bound to appear sparse by comparison with no enviromental interaction, npc schedules, crafting, item manipulation, teleportation, sleeping animations, consumable vittles etcetera.

[Sacred_Path]

 

There is one thing that makes me nervous, and that's the sequence of events here:

 

 

- devs give a short snippet of information about a mechanic in the game

 

- a relatively small number of people (relatively small compared to number of backers, forum members and active posters) start to whine and bitch

 

- Josh says "I thought you would like this feature/ what would you like instead (to spend your money on)?"

 

- feature is removed

 

 

The specifics behind this decision are everyone's guess.

Maybe it wasn't so much about the number of people, or the whining and bitching, but rather that there were good reasons for getting rid of the mechanic.

 

Note that I added it's the third point that worries me. Josh hasn't said at all that the critics brought something to his attention that he'd missed, some flaw in the mechanics he had not considered; he has only said that he thought people would like this mechanic, and then he asked what people would consider an acceptable alternative. This gives the impression that it wasn't any perceived strength in the critics' arguments that made him (them) remove this feature, but simply the wish to satisfy the greatest number of players.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Sacred_Path

[mcmanusaur]

As far as durability goes, I didn't really mind its inclusion (though I wasn't convinced about the "no effect until the meter reaches zero" approach), and I guess I can come around to its exclusion. I'm personally more concerned and currently unclear about what does or does not constitute a skill in Project Eternity, but I suppose that will all be revealed when the time is right (or maybe I've simply missed something). I mean, currently we have what... stealth, lockpicking, persuasion of some sort, presumably medicine, mercantile skills, some subset of the "crafting" mechanics (alchemy, cooking, enchantments, but not smithing?)... That still adds up to a slightly meager list of skills, though I suppose it's preferable to have a few deep skills than many shallow ones. I just hope we don't get an incoherent list of insubstantial DnD-esque skills.

[Cultist]

You mean the guys who changed the ending of their 'Magnum Opus' because of popular demand? The same guys who shoehorn in cringe-inducing romances at every opportunity for fan service? And the same guys who removed the entire inventory and exploration systems from the first ME game because people criticized them?

 

It's irrelevant anyway. Being uncompromising is only a good thing if you're actually talented to begin with. It can be assumed that game designers at Bioware are not. Tim Cain, Josh Sawyer, Chris Avellone and company are. 

Endings were dealt with after release, when dulk of damage was done already. And it's the guys who instead of fixing boring Mako exploration turned it into even more boring ****. Who turned Fallout from isometric into fps and Dragon Age into hack'n'slash. They never discussed it, never had a possibility to change it. It was a decision that was set in stone.