Update #58: Crafting with Tim Cain!

[Sacred_Path]

The only valid complaint about skills not being non-combat skills is when large portions of the game are spent outside of combat. If you want to skip combat or solve problems diplomatically, you'll still want your skills to do something.

 

This is the case with crafting; when you're outside of combat, you can use it to craft things (surprisingly!).

 

Right now people are throwing random **** together to create walls of text to express their general dislike.

[Kronos]

 

1. Will item repair components have weight/encumbrance? Obviously this will determine whether we can be effective at repairing degraded items in the field or have to make frequent trips to the nearest cache of supplies.

 

As described in post #1, repairs cannot be performed "in the field", only at Forges or Vendors. Also, inventory has no weight so you should be able to carry every conceivable material required to repair, make potions and cook food/drinks.

 

Inventory has no weight? Say what? That sounds like a poor gameplay adaptation to accommodate a lame crafting system where everyone has overflowing inventories. I'm not sure whether an Egypt style petition is required on the direction crafting is going as it'll have ramifications across a lot of gameplay elements. This doesn't feel very much in the spirit of IE games! WORST UPDATE EVER, I can imagine people in Obsidian must've also been divided on this one, stupid, stupid stretch goal messed everything up.

[Morgulon the Wise]

In my opinion crafting (smithing) can be a lot of fun if you can deconstruct and construct things permanently again and again. Why not use the hilt of the epic whatsoever sword for my own creation? If this part is available like in BG II why not use it in a new weapon before you get the set full (-->BONUS!). It's still just a part of a poweful artifact that lies around next to your other smithing stuff...

 

Imagine:

- For this purpose every deconstructable thing can be diverted into 3-5 parts (weapon/armorspecific).

- Each of these parts can be enchanted (the better the enchanter, the more kind of parts can be enhanced).

- Certain epic artifacts can NOT be deconstructed due to their entity. Some which can be found in Parts and are reconstructed may although remember that they can function alone.

- Do YOU dare to deconstruct a cursed item??? Maybe...

(- total loss of durability could lead to self-deconstruction! - for those who like breaking weapons)

 

What we would get:

Many (maybe too much) possibilities

If constructing/deconstructing items IS possible and there IS a fee to do so I would loose a lot (enough) my gold to check these possibilities each time I get a new option (new enchantment/ epic part/ new kind of hilt or blade)

I dont think I need a money sink like repairing. But only because REPAIRING IS NOT CREATIVE AT ALL.

 

I nearly forgot one more idea:

If you can construct a weapon out of selfmade (or looted/through deconstruction gained) parts there should for example be many kinds of blades you can forge: long, thin, broad, curved...

 

THIS would be customization (old fav of mine). There should only be some way to get there through 3D model flexibility. There does not need to be a proper- hand drawn picture for each combination.

 

I somehow think back to the medicine-ball flail now...

 

I dont like the thought that my adventurers have to hone some skills like crafting /cooking. This stuff should either be done by professionals or be available in a seperate softskills-tree with own points to spend.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Morgulon the Wise

[Kronos]

Best money sink ever... War & conflict. Game of throne WTF. If it's in the story and you need to round up some bannermen or encourage bannermen/mercenaries to your desired side of a conflict that will cost boatloads of gold.

 

Mix it up a bit as well, have an economic collapse of sorts and have all the player's cash in a bank frozen or wiped out.

 

You get robbed while camping - quest related of course, otherwise a lot of upset folk:) Nice to be able to get cash back from this.

 

Player's stronghold gets sacked while he/she is out questing, that'll cost a pretty penny to sort out.

 

Your next door neighbor is getting really irritating and interfering in your business, you're not going to go up to him and kill him as you have your reputation to think about. Hire an assassin, that doesn't come cheap.

 

Sponsor a combat/magic training academy in your name that'll supply your military effort with recruits.

 

Open up a personal harem if that's your thing:) (Also a great spy network - Littlefinger style)

 

There are so many cool things to spend money on that can be tied into main and side-quests, I suppose what I'm getting at is variation and quirkyness is cool & personally I love gold spend to be quest related & meaningful as in building up your personal powerbase/spy network/militia.

 

There are sooooooooo many things in reality that you can spend your cash on, just look to everyday life and the news for inspiration.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Kronos

[Faerunner]

this sounds great. Usually I'm not that into crafting, but this sounds fun. While I'm a little disappointed with the loss of "realistic" crafting animation, I'm glad it doesn't take too much time. That can be such a time-waster in so many games.I also like the idea of items retaining their abilities post-craft, like special swords with elemental boosts retaining said special properties instead of being stripped into a normal sword mid-transformation.

 

Will read and comment on the rest later as I have to go now, but I wanted to let you know I like what I see so far! Please keep up the good work! <3

[Hormalakh]

I'd like a sincere answer to this question, though I know not all of you are of the same mind: what do you want to spend (in-game) money on?

I've already mentioned gold being a way to unlock quests/content (a la stronghold), but here are a few others:

• Gold as a character advancement mechanic a la Might and Magic's training costs. Each level costs more money to train.
• Gold as a party advancement mechanic. e.g. purchase bigger backpacks or mules to follow you so you have more of a "top of stash" or faster travel time. 
• Gold for hiring adventurers
• Gold to sleep in inns and use forges, alchemy tables (perhaps certain "better" forges and labs give more per item, but cost money to "rent".)
• Gold for certain (not all, some can be found in dungeons) epic items.

And then finally this one which comes with a disclaimer. For all of the above-mentioned items, these are mostly one-time costs with permanence in what they offer. You rarely lose the value of the item purchased. However, ...

• Gold as consumables for potions, arrows, item repairs (yes even this)

... is different. These items are items that do not have permanence and thus are riskier investments. You purchase them because you believe that you might need them, but there are occasions where you can opt out by playing more tactically, etc. The main reason I think most people don't like the item durability as a consummable money sink is because there is no mitigation when it comes to it being a gold sink. You'll always lose the same amount of durability (outside of the craft skill) regardless of how you play your melee characters.

 

I believe that if item degradation was proposed to us as a combat mechanic with several inputs (certain spells, talents, and even skills - like crafting) that can mitigate the degradation, less people would be opposed to it. Many people see it more as a time/money sink than a tactical challenge. And as it is proposed now, this is exactly true. Why make a constant money sink, when you can just "turn down the faucet" as someone aptly put it?

[Somna]

Giving it further thought, durability could actually be useful if it was solely used as a stat for someone's weapon/armor getting attacked in order to break it, and not general wear and tear.  You'd have to have a reason WHY to do it -- like being easier to attack -- and it could be used as a counter for high-armor opponents who would otherwise be nearly impossible to damage.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Somna

[Cultist]

I think there's a solution. Party of 4 monks + 1 rogue and 1 wizard to toss some spells.

This way you don't have to deal with item repair at all - I doubt grimoire will lose durability for casting spells, rogue can stay away from combat and kept in party only to deal with locks and traps. Monks do all the damage and due to fighting unarmed and without armor do not have to deal with repair.

Problem solved!

[Cultist]

You're contradicting yourself. If you used the repair kits then clearly it did help, didn't it? Now consider the case where you only used repair kits rather than seeking individual replacement parts as you did in FNV. Wouldn't that be an easier mechanic? In a game like this where you are managing a party rather than an individual character, as a gamer you probably want that level of simplicity for maintenance tasks.

 

repair kits never helped anything in FNV. With abdurance of repair mateerials they were only used when you get some unique weapon like fatman. And it was always not worth it when it came to creatuing repair kits via crafting.

[forgottenlor]

I like the idea of say forcing noone into crafting or dealing with durablity but making them pay extra for not having the skill. For example, as many others have said, someone else can craft for you, but you simply must pay more. Perhaps you can take consumables with you (or an expensive non consumable) that prevents item degradation.

[BobbinThreadbare]

I'd like a sincere answer to this question, though I know not all of you are of the same mind: what do you want to spend (in-game) money on?

 

I worked on IWD, HoW, TotL, and IWD2.  In virtually all of these games, I heard these two complaints over and over and over:

 

When unique items were in stores:

* I don't want to buy unique items in stores.

 

When unique items were in dungeons:

* I have nothing to spend my money on.

 

In all of these games, items you found on adventures were almost always one of the following: a) directly usable (i.e. gear or consumables) b) wealth items or c) quest items.  If something wasn't usable, it was usually a wealth item (gold, gem, etc.).  A wealth item only existed to give you gold, but for gold to have some sort of value, there needs to be something you want that costs x gold.  If high-value items aren't what you spend your gold on, what do you spend your gold on?  In PE, you may spend gold on your stronghold, but there's no guarantee of that.  And according to a lot of you, you don't use consumables, so if consumables aren't used, they're just wealth items -- not something you would want to spend gold on.

 

Part of the reason for having a crafting system was to make consumables less common in the world.  Only people who want to make/use them would see a relatively large quantity of them.  Since crafting ingredients are stored and sorted separately from other items, their presence subtracts nothing from the carrying capabilities of players who ignore the system entirely.

 

There are recurring trends I'm seeing:

 

* Don't like crafting.

* Don't like durability.

* Don't like consumables.

 

Combining those with with the two points at the top, it's hard for me to figure out where the gold is going to go.  There is also the possibility that players don't actually want a long-term gold economy in a SP game, that gold in the mid- and late-game is ultimately something to accumulate and that most/all forms of gear upgrading simply happens through quests and exploration.  That's not an invalid way to go, but I'd like to hear thoughts on it if you have the time.

 

For the most part, I want to spend gold to be in a better situation than I was before. Spending gold to maintain the status quo feels unfullfulling to me. If it happens, I want it to be a consequence of me failing to play the game well. So buying a potion because I took more damage than expected is fine. It's sort of like mini-punishment for not doing well enough to not need the potion.

 

That's where my dislike of a durability meter comes from, it feels like I'm being punished for just playing the game.

 

Also, I like unique items to exist both in dungeons and in shops. It's always fun to see some super expensive sword you can't afford and you save up over 10 hours of game play and can finally buy it, and it's equally fun to delve into some tomb and take the king's magic shield.

[Kronos]

As a note I think it would be nice for the devs to initiate a few more polls when asking for their opinion on certain gameplay elements, it iot better way of consolidating the various veiw. eg: Josh's money sink poll would've been a better answered or at least the opinion of the community better monitored in a poll.

[LadyCrimson]

Left field/random blathering: I don't think I ever had an issue of having too much money in BG1, and never did buy any of the more expensive store items. Altho, this is likely due to me spending all my funds buying stacks and stacks and stacks of bullets (mages) and arrows (everyone else), and enchanted arrows and bullets to cheesily decimate everything in my path from range.

 

...which was fun at the time, but I hope today's game/P.E. has a little more ranged/melee balance than that.

 

I don't think one has to have super expensive things in the store for "money sinks" and indeed I'd rather those be items that are found through adventuring/defeating enemies/looting chests. I shouldn't be able to find Excalibur or Merlin's wand (haha) in a store, darnit.  There just needs to be enough of a variety of store items (from useful to perhaps even more decorative/fun) to inspire many to splurge to buy them, because those items either give combat, after-combat-recovery, or some aesthetic personal-fun value.

 

I find it pretty boring when stores only have inventory that looks something like:

 

--copper sword

--copper sword +1

--copper sword +3

--wood bow, steel bow

--potion of healing

--potion of defense

--steel shield

 

...boring. It worked once, but these days...boring. I only ever need one or two of those types of things on a periodic basis. Need more interesting things. They don't have to be powerful, one-of-a-kind or uber-fantasy things but something more interesting. Purchasable item enchants, or some crafting materials so one doesn't have to rely quite as much on finding them, or a cool looking cloak to wear over your armor just "because".

 

Whether one ends up thinking they're worth buying/using will be subjective of course - some only want to buy things that are "really useful" or even "uber" while others may have other reasons for purchases - which is why some people end up with a huge pile of extra cash at the end game and some are always broke even in a well designed game - but the point is, if what's in the stores is really largely a repeat of what you'll find in the wilderness, why would people bother spending in the store, outside of stocking up on a zillion arrows or pots or food or something.  And I don't think a loaf of bread should be 5 gold.

[TrashMan]

 

I dont think I need a money sink like repairing. But only because REPAIRING IS NOT CREATIVE AT ALL.

 

I don't think it is supposed to be creative.

[TrashMan]

Frankly I think wepons and armor should be degradable, but on a more simpler basis.

Basic menatinance always restores a bit of durability - but no more than that. It means that between combat and any time you rest your dudes mantain their weapons and armor.

 

Swords can break. But they don't desintegrate - you can always re-forge them.

Armors remain usable even when "broken", but with a much reduced effectiveness. Leather armors can be repaired in the field. Plate ones require a smith.

 

 

The durabiltiy formula is much simpler - you only use a durability point if the material you're hitting is stronger than yours...or on criticals

Let's say a steel sword has 10 durabiltiy points.

You attack a guy in leather - no loss of durability for you, even on criticals.

You attack a guy in steel or parry a steel sword - 1 point of durability lost (5% chance). On critical, 10% chance.

 

 

After each battle you can get 50% of lost point back (rounded up) - the other half can ONLY be restored by proper repair

 

I puled the numbers out of my anus, but you get the gist.

Weapons degrade very slowly and there is a element of randomness to it. You can go trouggt the game without a weapon breaking, or you can have several break.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Weapon vs material is an interesting idea! If degrading should be in at all it should make sense that way. Still, I would love to see magic weapons and armour be immune to degradation. Of course, you could go on and say that magic items can damage other magic items, but I think for simplicity's sake that is a futile direction.

[Tuckey]

Personally I liked how betrayal at krondor handled degrading. You could buy whetstones and hammers and maintain weapons and armour yourself or go to town to have it repaired. At least that way you weren't forced to go back to town for maintenance every couple of battles or so.

[forgottenlor]

  don't think one has to have super expensive things in the store for "money sinks" and indeed I'd rather those be items that are found through adventuring/defeating enemies/looting chests. I shouldn't be able to find Excalibur or Merlin's wand (haha) in a store, darnit.  There just needs to be enough of a variety of store items (from useful to perhaps even more decorative/fun) to inspire many to splurge to buy them, because those items either give combat, after-combat-recovery, or some aesthetic personal-fun value.

 

I find it pretty boring when stores only have inventory that looks something like:

 

--copper sword

--copper sword +1

--copper sword +3

--wood bow, steel bow

--potion of healing

--potion of defense

--steel shield

 

...boring. It worked once, but these days...boring. I only ever need one or two of those types of things on a periodic basis. Need more interesting things. They don't have to be powerful, one-of-a-kind or uber-fantasy things but something more interesting. Purchasable item enchants, or some crafting materials so one doesn't have to rely quite as much on finding them, or a cool looking cloak to wear over your armor just "because".

 

 

 

 

 

Don't forget items that could help in non combat situations, giving bonuses to skills, for example. My main character in the OC Neverwinter Knights campaign ran around the whole time with the fancy hat that gave him a diplomacy bonus.

 

I feel for you guys at Obsidian. Obviously everyone has different opinions, but I think very few games have done crafting or stores well. Often stores simply offer either worthless items or items that only help you at the beginning of the game. Crafting systems also present very often items either to weak or too strong or are too complicated.

Edited July 5, 2013 by forgottenlor

[forgottenlor]

For those who've joined a faction, there may be costs of expanding. Investments for narrative rewards.

 

 

 

 

In Might and Magic you had to pay to join a guild, then you could buy spells from it. I could definately see powerful factions maybe possessing powerful equipment or advanced training or magic, but to open this up you need to invest money in it.

[TrashMan]

 

Don't forget items that could help in non combat situations, giving bonuses to skills, for example. My main character in the OC Neverwinter Knights campaign ran around the whole time with the fancy hat that gave him a diplomacy bonus.

 

I feel for you guys at Obsidian. Obviously everyone has different opinions, but I think very few games have done crafting or stores well. Often stores simply offer either worthless items or items that only help you at the beginning of the game. Crafting systems also present very often items either to weak or too strong or are too complicated.

 

 

And this has EVERYTHING to do with power progression.

 

How come BG1 didn't have that problem with stores? Becasue it didnt' have a vast gulf in pwoer between items, and starting items were still usefull. In other words, you dont' start with a pointy stickand work your way to the uber-super-extra sword of badastititude +200.

 

You start with a good, usefull weapon and MAYBE get a better one.

[forgottenlor]

For those of you who don't like having "excaliber" in stores, what about master teachers? For example the head of an order of monks could teach you master conditioning (something like getting a permanent +1 hit point) but only if you donate a massive amount of wealth to his monestary, because after all he doesn't just teach anyone. Or what about the King's armsmaster. Training with him could earn you like +1% "to hit" with melee weapons, but you'd have to pay big time for him to take time out from his busy schedule. These are small, permanent, in game bonuses that could cost lots of money.

[Malekith]

For those of you who don't like having "excaliber" in stores, what about master teachers? For example the head of an order of monks could teach you master conditioning (something like getting a permanent +1 hit point) but only if you donate a massive amount of wealth to his monestary, because after all he doesn't just teach anyone. Or what about the King's armsmaster. Training with him could earn you like +1% "to hit" with melee weapons, but you'd have to pay big time for him to take time out from his busy schedule. These are small, permanent, in game bonuses that could cost lots of money.

I like it if you can get special "perks" from doing content in the world, including paying for them

[Nixl]

Reading some of the replies off of this site and codex, I like the mechanic even more.  I hope that Obsidian keeps it at least at max difficulty setting. I believe Infinitron on codex brought this up, but the durability mechanic paired with a lack of healing options could create some interesting gameplay. 

 

Going into a dungeon or an extended journey becomes a battle of attrition where you potentially have to plan what weapons, spells, and consumables that you use.  Rather than rely on a single weapon throughout, one may have to rely on multiple weapons to conserve the most needed weapons for later.  The right weapon for the right job, which I believe most players do anyways regardless of a durability mechanic. 

 

If paired with limited healing options, another reason that I like durability is the potential effect on health conservation.  One can use their best weapon for every fight and as a result conserve more health at the cost of durability.  In contrast, one can use a weaker weapon to conserve durability on a stronger weapon at the cost of health.  I believe that this would be an interesting challenge on a higher difficulty and if this is a goal of the system then I like it. 

 

In fairness, I know that some people argue that they do not like having to return to town, especially in the middle of a dungeon.  I would argue, however, that is an issue of preparation and not the durability mechanic itself.  If one brings just a single weapon to a dungeon, then I do expect some discomfort.  That is, if the dungeon creeps do not drop additional weapons, which otherwise would help to offset the issue.

 

Overall, I do not think IE players are foreign to the concept of bringing mandatory equipment to a dungeon or a fight.  I think bringing an extra sword or picking up additional weapons to conserve durability adds to the gameplay. 

 

edit:  I think another possibility brought up is making town visits more significant to offset any annoyance with repairs. 

Edited July 5, 2013 by Nixl

[jethro]

Alternatively, perhaps wealth can factor into reputation. It becomes a sort of a "You have to be this wealthy to get the attention of the local power players" (my favourite so far, because this means there is some point to hoarding wealth, and combined with other gold sinks a player must choose what to spend their wealth on (if at all)

 

 

Nice that someone else finds this plot so interesting. There could be so many sides and branches to this quest to impress the local power players. For example:

 

There is no simple counter you can see. Different actions and things you buy or put in your stronghold add to your perceived wealth but you don't know how much. You just might have to check regularily your mail until the invitation to the weekly ball finally arrives

 

There might be a quest where an alternative reward is an old painting you can put on the wall of your stronghold.

 

There is a dealer in antiques who sells lots of old stuff. What will impress the rich, what not, what will even make a negative impression ? Maybe you have some skill that gives you hints. Or there might be someone knowledable who might help you if you do this one thing for him .... If not, use common sense.

 

There is a forger who could make you a forgery of a famous painting. But for that to be accepted as the real deal you might have to start a false rumour as well that that painting was really sold to you or bribe the art expert of that rich circle you want to get into to lie for you.

 

You could get a useless but important sounding title by bribing magistrate and some other officials

 

You could pay a taxidermist to prepare heads of famous monsters you killed to put them on the wall of your stronghold

 

There could be a quest that allows you to to become adopted by a prince

 

Naturally giving lots of cash to churches or the local orphanage will further your cause.

 

Everyone of your party with gold rings in their inventory helps, gold or smaragd amulets only if the party member is a female.

 

Bribing of members of the elusive circle itself or of secretaries of the circle might be a good way, but first you have to find out who you can bribe.

 

This could really be a quest where role play becomes much more important than fighting stuff and helpful stuff can turn up in unexpected quarters

[Bhazor]

I've started to come around to the idea of durability and repairing equipment. But it still could end up as needless busy work in execution. What about if equipment was autorepaired on visiting an inn in the same way characters autocast healing spells before they rest in the IE games? As it stands having to manually repair each piece of equipment you've used sounds like absolute tedium. Remember its not just one character you have to fix the equipment of like in New Vegas. You might be maintaining a half dozen party members. That's a half dozen weapons, a half dozen back up weapons, a half dozen shields, a half dozen sets of armour that would all need to be fixed up. That might include having to shift all that junk on to the party's designated crafter and then moving it all back.

 

The idea of item durability is nice but it needs serious consideration for the execution. It needs to be absolutely painless to use and add to the game otherwise people will just end up modding it out.

 

Also crafting can still go to hell especially if it turns out like "socketing" in arpg which is what Tim made it sound like.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Bhazor