Extra credits on Difficult games vs Punishing games

[JFSOCC]

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/when-difficult-is-fun

 

For me, in Baldurs gate II, sometimes combat was punishing, not difficult.

I think this Extra Credits Episode is spot on.

[BBMorti]

What is punishing and what is difficult is subjective to each individual. This fact makes most of the argument of the video you link to, fall apart. Imo

 

What in Baldur's Gate 2 did you find punishing?

What you answer will likely boggle many peoples mind since they disagree with you, and others might agree. If it can be prevented through proper buffing, positioning or scouting with stealth, then people who normally utilize those tools will find things trivial that people who doesn't utilize said tools will find punishing.

 

I am guessing you post this in the Eternity forum, of all places, because you hope to influence PE to be a game that is not punishing, like 99% of all games out there. If that is your thought for posting this, here, may I ask why this game, too.. should be another in that mountain pile?

[Jarmo]

I am guessing you post this in the Eternity forum, of all places, because you hope to influence PE to be a game that is not punishing, like 99% of all games out there. If that is your thought for posting this, here, may I ask why this game, too.. should be another in that mountain pile?

 

Going on a hunch... I'd say you didn't watch the linked video.

 Further, yeah, I hope PE is not going to be punishing. Difficult on high difficulty settings yeah, but not punishing.

[BBMorti]

 

I am guessing you post this in the Eternity forum, of all places, because you hope to influence PE to be a game that is not punishing, like 99% of all games out there. If that is your thought for posting this, here, may I ask why this game, too.. should be another in that mountain pile?

 

Going on a hunch... I'd say you didn't watch the linked video.

 Further, yeah, I hope PE is not going to be punishing. Difficult on high difficulty settings yeah, but not punishing.

 

Hard to disagree with a video I didn't watch.

Units spawning behind you might be something you call punishing, a better player will simply adapt to such a thing and have a tanky character in the back, or summons etc. What some find punishing others find trivial, it is subjective.

[Sarex]

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/when-difficult-is-fun

 

For me, in Baldurs gate II, sometimes combat was punishing, not difficult.

I think this Extra Credits Episode is spot on.

 

Can you give an example of punishing combat? I have watched the whole video and it clearly says if the rules are consistent, then the game is not punishing. The IE games had consistent rules, and they always gave you the tools to beat any challenge.

[Nonek]

Voila:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHWo-5A46rg

Edited June 20, 2013 by Nonek

[JFSOCC]

What is punishing and what is difficult is subjective to each individual. This fact makes most of the argument of the video you link to, fall apart. Imo

 

What in Baldur's Gate 2 did you find punishing?

What you answer will likely boggle many peoples mind since they disagree with you, and others might agree. If it can be prevented through proper buffing, positioning or scouting with stealth, then people who normally utilize those tools will find things trivial that people who doesn't utilize said tools will find punishing.

 

I am guessing you post this in the Eternity forum, of all places, because you hope to influence PE to be a game that is not punishing, like 99% of all games out there. If that is your thought for posting this, here, may I ask why this game, too.. should be another in that mountain pile?

I think the video describes very well the difference between difficult and punishing, the most important distinction being that punishing is when you couldn't know in advance how to deal with the problem you are facing, whereas difficult gives a player all the needed information for them to CHOOSE how to respond. It becomes about skill, and not grind. Combat in Baldurs Gate II was a grind for me. But I think this video stands with or without my personal opinion on BGII.

 

You're damn right that I hope that P:E will be a game that is not punishing, I want it to be a game that is difficult. One you need skill to overcome, not trial and error. A place where my observation skills can tell me enough to solve the encounter, not just luck in what skills I happened to click worked out for me.

 

I think P:E can be that, and this would satisfy everyone.

[Sacred_Path]

 

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/when-difficult-is-fun

 

For me, in Baldurs gate II, sometimes combat was punishing, not difficult.

I think this Extra Credits Episode is spot on.

 

Can you give an example of punishing combat? I have watched the whole video and it clearly says if the rules are consistent, then the game is not punishing. The IE games had consistent rules, and they always gave you the tools to beat any challenge.

 

It also says something about telegraphing. There's nothing in the game that gives a hint to a DnD, BG2 newb on how to kill Kangaxx.

[Sensuki]

I on the other hand hope for masochistic punishment on the higher difficulties. Spiked Cat'o'Nine Tails to the backside plz.

[curryinahurry]

 

What is punishing and what is difficult is subjective to each individual. This fact makes most of the argument of the video you link to, fall apart. Imo

 

What in Baldur's Gate 2 did you find punishing?

What you answer will likely boggle many peoples mind since they disagree with you, and others might agree. If it can be prevented through proper buffing, positioning or scouting with stealth, then people who normally utilize those tools will find things trivial that people who doesn't utilize said tools will find punishing.

 

I am guessing you post this in the Eternity forum, of all places, because you hope to influence PE to be a game that is not punishing, like 99% of all games out there. If that is your thought for posting this, here, may I ask why this game, too.. should be another in that mountain pile?

I think the video describes very well the difference between difficult and punishing, the most important distinction being that punishing is when you couldn't know in advance how to deal with the problem you are facing, whereas difficult gives a player all the needed information for them to CHOOSE how to respond. It becomes about skill, and not grind. Combat in Baldurs Gate II was a grind for me. But I think this video stands with or without my personal opinion on BGII.

 

You're damn right that I hope that P:E will be a game that is not punishing, I want it to be a game that is difficult. One you need skill to overcome, not trial and error. A place where my observation skills can tell me enough to solve the encounter, not just luck in what skills I happened to click worked out for me.

 

I think P:E can be that, and this would satisfy everyone.

 

 

It has been a while since I played BG2, but with the exception of a particular demi-lich, I can't think of any moments in the game where I thought that I didn't have information to address the challenge.  If you read spell descriptions, paid attention to caster strategies, and read the manual, BG2 wasn't particularly difficult.  Some of the combats could be a bit grindy in the buff-debuff vein, but that is different from punishing. 

 

BTW, did you play IWD 2?  Josh Sawyer has stated that is the intended difficulty level for P:E; and in my estimation, it was far more diificult than BG2 (with maybe the exception of Demogorgon using the Ascension Mod in TOB).

Edited June 21, 2013 by curryinahurry

[FlintlockJazz]

I'm probably going to be pissing most people off here with this post but bleh Extra Credits I really don't like them. I find that they either state the obvious while dressing it up as if it was some deep insight or state an opinion as if it were fact while creating strawmen in order to back up their argument. I know people like to use their videos to back up their arguments but to me they prove nothing and actually weaken their stance.

[Lephys]

If you read spell descriptions, paid attention to caster strategies, and read the manual, BG2 wasn't particularly difficult.

Everyone knows that true gamers don't read manuals, u_u.

 

[bonarbill]

Dark souls isn't punishing?  Yeah, they basically screwed their whole argument after mentioning that.

[LadyCrimson]

Everyone knows that true gamers don't read manuals, u_u.

 

We just like to collect them.

[.Leif.]

Dark souls isn't punishing?  Yeah, they basically screwed their whole argument after mentioning that.

 

Yea, but it's the right kind of punishing IMHO. It's like riding a bike. Trying to learn to ride a bike can be discouraging, especially if you fall off and hurt yourself, but after you learn how to keep yourself going it's really hard to forget how. The Capra Demon may be nasty and in a crowded environment with two hounds but after learning how to address the situation you're not afraid anymore. I plan on playing PE on Hardcore mode and expect to have the difficulty adjusted appropriately. 

[teknoman2]

 

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/when-difficult-is-fun

 

For me, in Baldurs gate II, sometimes combat was punishing, not difficult.

I think this Extra Credits Episode is spot on.

 

Can you give an example of punishing combat? I have watched the whole video and it clearly says if the rules are consistent, then the game is not punishing. The IE games had consistent rules, and they always gave you the tools to beat any challenge.

 

wait what? consistent? when? where? it was all based on dumb luck most of the time, and often the battles were rigged to make them harder.

want some examples?

Sarevok rolled a 5, and had a +4 to his attack = 9 vs AC-9 = hit. now if i remember the rules corectly, to hit an AC-9 you need roll+attack bonus>=19. and i could accept that Sarevok, having the super magic sword, could ignore the dice and hit anyway... why did the same thing occur often with enemies that didnt even had magic weapons?

My character had a +12 to his attack roll, meaning that he could hit anyone with ac up to -4, with a roll of 2. in fights against certain enemies, the dice rolled up to 5 consecutive 1 (critical miss) after every hit.

after a certain level, ALL hp rolls at level up were automaticaly 1

i can keep giving you examples of how the AI cheated on core rules all day if you want

Edited June 24, 2013 by teknoman2

[Sensuki]

Throne of Bhaal final battle Amellysan the Black is unaffected by Timestop and can still stun/hold someone wearing the cloak of reversal or whatever.

 

Sarevok rolled a 5, and had a +4 to his attack = 9 vs AC-9 = hit. now if i remember the rules corectly, to hit an AC-9 you need roll+attack bonus>=19. and i could accept that

Sarevok has a low THAC0. The +4 is external to his THAC0, so his 9 might have been from having a THAC0 of 0; where he only needs a 9 to hit AC-9.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Sensuki

[teknoman2]

im pretty sure, that in the combat messages about rolls, the game takes all variables into account, calculates the attack bonus and then adds it to the dice roll. after that it compares it to the AC and decides if it is a hit or miss. at least that's what i saw when i was fighting normal enemies: roll 13+3 vs ac-7=miss, roll 16+1 vs ac-5=hit, roll 4+2 vs ac0=miss

Edited June 24, 2013 by teknoman2

[UpgrayeDD]

Well if you consider that sarevok is likely using a +3 weapon+ with other THAC0 increasing items (he's a fighter and thinking he'd gear himself differently then a player would be silly.) so 5+

He that he is proficient as well as most likely being being level 17+ (considering his hp I don't think this is much of a stretch). so 17+

He's in a position of power and wealth so having potions or belts or abilities to push his str to 23+ I don't think is far off either.  so 5+

so his THAC0 being at least -7 or lower even at -8 ac he'd still hit on a 2

[Sensuki]

im pretty sure, that in the combat messages about rolls, the game takes all variables into account, calculates the attack bonus and then adds it to the dice roll. after that it compares it to the AC and decides if it is a hit or miss. at least that's what i saw when i was fighting normal enemies: roll 13+3 vs ac-7=miss, roll 16+1 vs ac-5=hit, roll 4+2 vs ac0=miss

No your attack bonuses lower your THAC0. The bonuses after the + are from 'other' stuff. Like when you are fatigued you get -1 to attack rolls every hour. In BG2 if you are playing on Normal difficulty or lower you get a luck bonus to dice rolls that makes the game easier.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Sensuki

[Dream]

It also says something about telegraphing. There's nothing in the game that gives a hint to a DnD, BG2 newb on how to kill Kangaxx.

 

 

But by the time you're even able to fight Kangaxx you'd have already played through a significant portion of the game and by definition are no longer a newb.

[Sacred_Path]

 

It also says something about telegraphing. There's nothing in the game that gives a hint to a DnD, BG2 newb on how to kill Kangaxx.

 

But by the time you're even able to fight Kangaxx you'd have already played through a significant portion of the game and by definition are no longer a newb.

 

You are as far as this particular type of enemy is concerned.

[Osvir]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oYLhAZvjvU&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLWLedd0Zw3c7iIIMT0WQwEVeztYgS4A_t

 

EDIT: Dark Souls and Artificial Difficulty. Great video in my opinion.

 

EDIT EDIT: Additionally: Extria Credits Depth vs Complexity

Edited June 25, 2013 by Osvir

[teknoman2]

i may not heard it right in the video, but i thought artificial difficulty was when the game used underhanded methods to keep the player from winning easily if he was too skilled or his character was too strong.

oh and i just remembered one more thing about BG: you may only have one contingency active... it said when you tried to use the contingency spell while another was active.

yet when i faced random wizard X, i was seeing

RWX: contingency activated: enemy sighted

RWX: stone skin

RWX: globe of invulnerability

RWX: protection from missiles

...

RWX: contingency activated: 50%HP

RWX: stone skin

RWX: globe of invulnerability

RWX: protection from missiles

...

RWX: contingency activated: 25%HP

RWX: stone skin

RWX: globe of invulnerability

RWX: protection from missiles

so why did all enemy mages had at least 3 active contingencies, and i could only have 1? this is what i call artificial difficulty 

[Osvir]

Artificial Difficulty isn't quite what I wanted to put emphasis on with that video, but the fact that if you play with awareness and using skill+tools provided to you (rules), you can avoid all traps, beat all enemies and all bosses in Demon Dark Souls. You could, in theory, finish Demon Dark Souls without dying once.

The beginning of the video is what I wanted to put emphasis on really, where he plays 2 different "extremes". The one on the left who treads more carefully and soaks his environment in and reflects it (paying attention/having awareness) and thus avoids dangers, whilst the other simply goes gung-ho all in YOLO style and consequentially runs into danger.

Player #1 is being rewarded for playing with awareness and knowledge of the game's rules. "It is my fault, I have to get better"-mentality.
Player #2 is being punished for ignoring the rules. And, in this extreme (yet very common) example, blames the game/developers. "It is your fault, fix it in a patch!"-mentality.

 

I like Player #1's attitude and I obviously like this form of difficulty. I grow as a person overcoming difficulties like that. I'd actually like to call it the "Parenting Difficulty". You get a firm "No!" if you fail in the form of "You died", and if you succeed you are rewarded with a continuation of the bedtime story.

He also brings up some pretty good points, in my opinion, throughout the entire video. But I think that's more of a mindset as a Player rather than a "difficulty" per say.

EDIT: P.S. I haven't played Dark Souls, I did play a lot of Demon Souls though. Mostly done video watching & reading on Dark Souls (Lore, Mechanics, Articles etc. etc.).

Edited June 25, 2013 by Osvir