Update #56: Paladins and Wild Orlans

[Nixl]

The entimology of the word is irrelevant to me.

 

Armors, weapons and in the tick of melee with relntless zeal and fury - that's a paladin.

 

If a paladin is defined by his determination and willpower, why is it so focused on buffing others? Zeal and determinationed can be focused in many ways. Being driven and single-minded doesn't necessarily lends itself to leading people.

I understand the concern about being a buffbot, but I think the Paladin will be more rounded in the final product then the original post let on. 

 

What I got from the dev posts is that Paladins are unique in having auras and other short term buffs on top of melee prowless.  

 

Paladins may not have the damage potential (big numbers/crits) of a fighter/warrior, but they are worth having around.

[zimcub]

If a paladin is defined by his determination and willpower, why is it so focused on buffing others?

Because it's main goal is to protect others. That's the whole definition of a Paladin/Knight.

You cant just portrait him as a berserker in shiny armor.

A knight or a paladin always has been in the service of a lord or a lady, even if they were the leader of an army.

Zeal and determinationed can be focused in many ways. Being driven and single-minded doesn't necessarily lends itself to leading people.

It kind of does, if his main goal is to do utmost good.

[Malekith]

Paladins never could go one to one with fighters. Even in D&D their use were their special abilities.

[bonarbill]

Rogues focusing on single target burst damage..

Barbarians focusing on AOE...

Paladin focusing on buffing others..

 

Why the heck do these class differences sound like an MMO?  I really hope each of these classes can do more than just than what's listed above.

[TrashMan]

 

If a paladin is defined by his determination and willpower, why is it so focused on buffing others?

Because it's main goal is to protect others. That's the whole definition of a Paladin/Knight.

You cant just portrait him as a berserker in shiny armor.

A knight or a paladin always has been in the service of a lord or a lady, even if they were the leader of an army.

Zeal and determinationed can be focused in many ways. Being driven and single-minded doesn't necessarily lends itself to leading people.

It kind of does, if his main goal is to do utmost good.

 

 

 

1) I can. The "goal" is not a fixed thing in PE anymore.

 

2) And how to go about "outmost good" is subjective.

 

I postulate that a paladin should be able to use his determination and "wellspring of spiritual energy" so smite things. Different paladins do different things, as it should.

 

D&D had different paladin kits, other games had palading be an advanced class of fighter.

 

Now, there being no morality meter/aligment the paladin can't smite evil anymore. But the undead are still present, so at least he should be able to smite undead?

Please tell me he can smite unded... Without it it doesn't feel like paladin anymore.

[Malekith]

 

1) I can. The "goal" is not a fixed thing in PE anymore.

 

2) And how to go about "outmost good" is subjective.

 

I postulate that a paladin should be able to use his determination and "wellspring of spiritual energy" so smite things. Different paladins do different things, as it should.

 

D&D had different paladin kits, other games had palading be an advanced class of fighter.

 

Now, there being no morality meter/aligment the paladin can't smite evil anymore. But the undead are still present, so at least he should be able to smite undead?

Please tell me he can smite unded... Without it it doesn't feel like paladin anymore.

 

Why should a person who have dedicated his life to guard a pilgrim road (just an example, i thing a sertain order in the lore was dedicated in something along those lines), have a spesific power to smite undead? By what logic?

Also we don't know if PE will have undead, or even if it has them they would be your typical undead. The souls concept can allow them to make an original spin on undead.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Malekith

[Nixl]

 

 

1) I can. The "goal" is not a fixed thing in PE anymore.

 

2) And how to go about "outmost good" is subjective.

 

I postulate that a paladin should be able to use his determination and "wellspring of spiritual energy" so smite things. Different paladins do different things, as it should.

 

D&D had different paladin kits, other games had palading be an advanced class of fighter.

 

Now, there being no morality meter/aligment the paladin can't smite evil anymore. But the undead are still present, so at least he should be able to smite undead?

Please tell me he can smite unded... Without it it doesn't feel like paladin anymore.

 

Why should a person who have dedicated his life to guard a pilgrim road (just an example, i thing a sertain order in the lore was dedicated in something along those lines), have a spesific power to smite undead? By what logic?

Also we don't know if PE will have undead, or even if it has them they would be your typical undead. The souls concept can allow them to make an original spin on undead.

 

From what I have gleaned, smiting undead is still a possibility. 

 

Every class expresses its soul differently.  Paladin's radiate their life energy/soul, which has a perk of empowering nearby living creatures.  It could have the opposite effect against undead. 

Edited June 21, 2013 by Nixl

[Nonek]

Rogues focusing on single target burst damage..

Barbarians focusing on AOE...

Paladin focusing on buffing others..

 

Why the heck do these class differences sound like an MMO?  I really hope each of these classes can do more than just than what's listed above.

 

Got to admit i'm extremely sceptical of this as well. I'm fine with Rogues having a high damage backstab, an assassination attempt if you will, but not the constant highest damage. Rogues are not trained in weapons and warfare like a Fighter, they are cheaters who take advantage of the situation, scout, manipulate and prepare. That and their weapons are not suited to delivering the most devastating attacks, compare a dagger to a poll ax, both Fighter and Rogue will know where to hit, and the Fighter will probably know the limitations and weak spots of armour far more intimately than the Rogue. His poll ax blows will devastate opponents.

 

This and i've no idea how exactly this area of effect attack by the Barbarian works, is he swinging his weapon in circles like a Dervish? Either way it doesn't sound like a plausible method of melee.

 

All this said i'm not particularly perturbed by the Paladins role, I can see him as being a fine addition to any party and able to withstand the rigours of combat, but on the whole I am uncomfortable with the mechanics generally aping MMO's. I think Obsidian can do better than this.

[TrashMan]

I dunno. Make something up.

 

Undead are soulless I wager? If so they have no spiritual energy of their own.

They are a perversion. Paladins, being a "blazing sun" of spiritual energy could work as anathema to undead.

[Malekith]

 

 

 

1) I can. The "goal" is not a fixed thing in PE anymore.

 

2) And how to go about "outmost good" is subjective.

 

I postulate that a paladin should be able to use his determination and "wellspring of spiritual energy" so smite things. Different paladins do different things, as it should.

 

D&D had different paladin kits, other games had palading be an advanced class of fighter.

 

Now, there being no morality meter/aligment the paladin can't smite evil anymore. But the undead are still present, so at least he should be able to smite undead?

Please tell me he can smite unded... Without it it doesn't feel like paladin anymore.

 

Why should a person who have dedicated his life to guard a pilgrim road (just an example, i thing a sertain order in the lore was dedicated in something along those lines), have a spesific power to smite undead? By what logic?

Also we don't know if PE will have undead, or even if it has them they would be your typical undead. The souls concept can allow them to make an original spin on undead.

 

From what I have gleaned, smiting undead is still a possibility. 

 

Every class expresses its soul differently.  Paladin's radiate their life energy/soul, which has a perk of empowering nearby living creatures.  It could have the opposite effect against undead. 

 

I'm not saying it can't be done. But by the same logic it's just as possible to have druids or ciphers be the ones that are more effective against the undead. After all ciphers are the ones with the most knowlege and control over their souls.

My point is that in PE paladins have nothing to do with the "holy warrior" archetype,nor should they, so they won't have shoehorned abilities that make no sense just to fit with some people preconceptions of what a paladin should be.

 

 

Undead are soulless I wager? If so they have no spiritual energy of their own.

They are a perversion

Maybe. maybe not. Personally i hope Obsidian make the undead in this setting something completelly different than the classic "resurrected corpses because necromancy"

Edited June 21, 2013 by Malekith

[zimcub]

1) I can. The "goal" is not a fixed thing in PE anymore.

 

2) And how to go about "outmost good" is subjective.

 

I postulate that a paladin should be able to use his determination and "wellspring of spiritual energy" so smite things. Different paladins do different things, as it should.

 

D&D had different paladin kits, other games had palading be an advanced class of fighter.

 

Now, there being no morality meter/aligment the paladin can't smite evil anymore. But the undead are still present, so at least he should be able to smite undead?

Please tell me he can smite unded... Without it it doesn't feel like paladin anymore.

 

1. Apparently it is since they already showed what they have plans on how the paladin will function and it fits with the original lore

2. I know but it doesn't really matter what it is, i used it to make a point. Even if he is evil, as a definition of a knight/paladin he will be in service to a evil lord (using the term loosely), and as being the most driven he is willing to empower those around him at the expense of his own benefit for the greater good/evil, which will also cause the people around him to support and follow him if they have the same goal.

Edited June 21, 2013 by zimcub

[rjshae]

Yep. Apart from the Faith and Conviction benefit (which apparently shows that the game will have comparable saves to D&D), the Paladin benefits all appear to bestow leadership qualities on the Paladin. If you go where he goes and fight what he fights, then you get benefits. That doesn't seem like a support role to me.

 

 

So will the paladin have only 1 aura active at a time?

So 2 paladins in group could each have a different aura?

 

I'm a bit worried about Zealous March and ranged weapon kiting.

Increased movement speed could mean the AI would never be able to catch him, so what if someone made a party of 5 ranged classes and 1 ranged paladin?

Will they be able to whipe out everyone without getting hit by melee?

 

The horse archer was a very effective weapon in the middle ages, so it seems like a legitimate tactic to shoot and scoot. I'd say it depends on how much of a movement increase the Paladin provides and how much time it requires to get off a shot.

Edited June 21, 2013 by rjshae

[Vaeliorin]

Now, there being no morality meter/aligment the paladin can't smite evil anymore. But the undead are still present, so at least he should be able to smite undead?

Please tell me he can smite unded... Without it it doesn't feel like paladin anymore.

 

Given that theoretically you could be a necromantic champion as a paladin, it wouldn't make much sense for them to have abilities specifically for fighting the undead.  As someone mentioned, it might make more sense for them to have something along the lines of favored enemies, and have abilities that only work (or work to greater effect) against those favored enemies.

 

Point being, paladins aren't shoehorned into being goody two-shoes in P:E.  They're simply champions of causes, and those causes can potentially be anything that you can think of.  While I don't have a problem with the goody two-shoes paladin (though I always thought Lawful Good was too strict of a requirement, mostly because I don't enjoy playing Lawful characters) I much prefer this sort of paladin who is much more in line with the original concept of the paladin (and not the D&D one.)

[Bitula]

_{Unless it is a secret, may I ask if there will be undead in PE? Sort of a difficult to imagine a Fantasy CRPG without undead.}

Edited June 21, 2013 by Bitula

[Morgulon the Wise]

I think there will be ways to define what or whom the paladin serves. And yes, he will have the ability to enforce those who fight on his side (as stated) but he should be the wrath itself if he comes to face those who oppose the things or persons he is sworn on. (What i mean is smiting. Really brutally and hard.)

 

And in this he should exeed the other fighter classes.

 

A fighter as a contrst is in my opinion "only" someone who enjoys fighting as well as he loves his weapons and his ability to wield them perfectly. The souls of fighters should merge with his weapons, making these extended parts of his body. A paladin puts his love elsewhere.

[Sedrefilos]

A paladin in the real world was this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladin

A paladin in a fictional fantasy world is whatever it's creator wishes to be.

[PrimeJunta]

As an aside, D&D paladins make no sense to me and never did, in any of the editions. They're basically gimped fighters with some relatively useless magic abilities and a strict code of conduct. You can get a much more powerful holy warrior based on the cleric class, without even multiclassing to fighter, never even mind some of the absurdly powerful divine prestige classes.

[Tsuga C]

...but on the whole I am uncomfortable with the mechanics generally aping MMO's. I think Obsidian can do better than this.

Yeah, I'm trying to avoid the MMO scene (and 4E D&D), so much of what Mr. Sawyer is saying is generating yellow cautionary flags in the back of my mind.

[Lephys]

You have some wacked interpretations sometimes Lephys. 1/5th as capable. Hahah.

For what it's worth, that was emphatic exaggeration. If you didn't know, I tend to favor its use. 8P

 

Yeah, I'm trying to avoid the MMO scene (and 4E D&D), so much of what Mr. Sawyer is saying is generating yellow cautionary flags in the back of my mind.

I wouldn't worry, really. I know there are at-a-glance similarities, but I think the main difference is that, in MMOs, these very generalized descriptions are the entirety of the class mechanics, whereas in P:E, they're actually just structuring the basis for a much more-tactical mechanic.

 

In other words, a Rogue won't have a lot of abilities that strike 15 people, because his specialty doesn't involve striking 15 people all the time. He'll have a lot of 1-on-1 abilities that, if properly utilized in a tactical manner by the player, will result in more effective strikes that often bypass weaknesses (a la "cheat and take advantage of the situation") than other classes.

 

The key being that it won't be overly simplified like in an MMO. A level 1 Rogue isn't going to have 10DPS, versus the level 1 Warrior's 7DPS, and he's not going to simply gain 15 abilities between then and level 10 that strike more often than the Fighter's abilities, resulting in 50DPS to the Warrior's 35 at level 10, and that's that.

 

The effectiveness of class mechanics will rely much more on FAR more factors than simply how much damage and attack speed they get, and whether or not they possess AOE capability or not. At least, that is what I suspect.

 

I guess we won't know 'til we see it in action, but I have faith in Obsidian. I mean, look at the games they've made already, and take out that publisher "let's just add boobs and explosions and make sure 3-year-olds can play it so that we sell more copies" influence, and what do you think we'll be left with? A game that's MORE like everyone's-trying-to-get-in-on-the-profits MMO casualness? I highly, highly doubt it.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Lephys

[Solviulnir the Soulbinder]

Hey, that was a very nice song!

[TrashMan]

I'm not saying it can't be done. But by the same logic it's just as possible to have druids or ciphers be the ones that are more effective against the undead. After all ciphers are the ones with the most knowlege and control over their souls.

My point is that in PE paladins have nothing to do with the "holy warrior" archetype,nor should they, so they won't have shoehorned abilities that make no sense just to fit with some people preconceptions of what a paladin should be.

 

Maybe. maybe not. Personally i hope Obsidian make the undead in this setting something completelly different than the classic "resurrected corpses because necromancy"

 

 

Well, clearly I am advocating for what I think a paladin should be. Why should I do otherwise?

 

Frankly the PE paladin so far is basicly a D&D warlord. What's the point of calling it a paladin then? What's hte point of a name that invokes something if it doesn't. OK, the devs went to the root of the name, and not the most common mental image most people will have. I still don't like it.

The D&D Paladin was my favorite class.

This shares only the name, and none of the awesome.

 

When the Paladin streach goal was reached, I was all "hell yeah". Now...nothing.

 

 

Also, trying to put a new "twist" on everything is in itself bad. You end up looking you're trying too hard to be different.

How can you even twist the undead differently? They are supposed to be dead.. (well, not dead-dead)

Too much twisting and you end up with sparklepyres.

 

Edited June 21, 2013 by TrashMan

[Malekith]

 

I'm not saying it can't be done. But by the same logic it's just as possible to have druids or ciphers be the ones that are more effective against the undead. After all ciphers are the ones with the most knowlege and control over their souls.

My point is that in PE paladins have nothing to do with the "holy warrior" archetype,nor should they, so they won't have shoehorned abilities that make no sense just to fit with some people preconceptions of what a paladin should be.

 

Maybe. maybe not. Personally i hope Obsidian make the undead in this setting something completelly different than the classic "resurrected corpses because necromancy"

 

 

Well, clearly I am advocating for what I think a paladin should be. Why should I do otherwise?

 

Frankly the PE paladin so far is basicly a D&D warlord. What's the point of calling it a paladin then? What's hte point of a name that invokes something if it doesn't. OK, the devs went to the root of the name, and not the most common mental image most people will have. I still don't like it.

The D&D Paladin was my favorite class.

This shares only the name, and none of the awesome.

 

When the Paladin streach goal was reached, I was all "hell yeah". Now...nothing.

 

 

Also, trying to put a new "twist" on everything is in itself bad. You end up looking you're trying too hard to be different.

How can you even twist the undead differently? They are supposed to be dead.. (well, not dead-dead)

Too much twisting and you end up with sparklepyres.

 

 

Malazan Book of the Fallen ( a fantasy series that both Avellone and Ziets are fans of) has the best and very original spin of undeath. It can be done. It just requires imagination.

 

Also keep in mind that Chanter, the class we have instead of bards is also very different. These classes didn't fit with PE setting, so Obsidian modified them to fit.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Malekith

[Gumbercules]

I imagine that holy warrior, smite-the-undead customizations could be added through Talents, and those Talents could be based at least partly on stuff like philosophical or factional alignment as well as how the character acts. Hell, it wouldn't even need to be restricted to paladins. Maybe you could develop a fighter in such a way that they earn faith-based or anti-undead Talents.

[Superpat]

 

 

 

1) I can. The "goal" is not a fixed thing in PE anymore.

 

2) And how to go about "outmost good" is subjective.

 

I postulate that a paladin should be able to use his determination and "wellspring of spiritual energy" so smite things. Different paladins do different things, as it should.

 

D&D had different paladin kits, other games had palading be an advanced class of fighter.

 

Now, there being no morality meter/aligment the paladin can't smite evil anymore. But the undead are still present, so at least he should be able to smite undead?

Please tell me he can smite unded... Without it it doesn't feel like paladin anymore.

 

Why should a person who have dedicated his life to guard a pilgrim road (just an example, i thing a sertain order in the lore was dedicated in something along those lines), have a spesific power to smite undead? By what logic?

Also we don't know if PE will have undead, or even if it has them they would be your typical undead. The souls concept can allow them to make an original spin on undead.

 

From what I have gleaned, smiting undead is still a possibility. 

 

Every class expresses its soul differently.  Paladin's radiate their life energy/soul, which has a perk of empowering nearby living creatures.  It could have the opposite effect against undead. 

 

Couldn't a PE Paladin take up the cause of spreading death and nothingness the most possible? Sort of a medieval knight of the Null

[Malekith]

I don't believe PE paladins will have stupid causes  like "for the GOOD" or "for the EVIL".

The whole point was for Obsidian to ditch the idiotic morality system. I believe people will be more like in Game of Thrones or New Vegas. They will care about themselves and maybe their factions, but they won't champion universal umbrela causes like good/evil. Remeber, grey morality. But i could be wrong.