How "grindy" will the game be?

[Gfted1]

Back to PE; It says that it harkens back to the good old day of Infinity games. So I assume that the game won't be "modernized" and provide instant gratification every 3 seconds. So I do think that at some point it will feel grindy. Though how much and in what way remains to be seen, since this can be a pacing tool in and of itself.

 

You have it backwards. All the tough guys think the IE games are fatally flawed by allowing players to play as they wish. The new "modernized" PE game removes gratification and replaces it with kicking you in the balls every 3 seconds.

 

Seriously though, with quests rewards being the sole conduit of experience points I sure hope they are varied and interesting and don't turn into a dump of collection quests.

[Karkarov]

Personally I hope the game keeps grinding to a minimum.  No EXP from combat?  Who cares.  Combat still has lots of perks.  For example.... lets say there is a objective where you have to get a thief guild leader off a powerful merchants back for whatever reason.  There could be all sorts of ways to do it..... for example:

 

You could join the thieves guild, work your way up, and at high rank use your clout to call the guild off.

 

You could break into the guild or the guild leaders home and steal evidence and use it to blackmail him.

 

You could simply earn a crap ton of money and pay the guild leader off to leave him alone.

 

Or you could charge into his hideout, scream "EAT COLD STEEL!!!" and kill everything that moves.

 

All of them are viable choices and have different advantages and disadvantages.  But only one of them ends up with you in possession of the Thief Guild Leader's gauntlets of stealth that enhance all rogue talents and his short sword +3.

[Gfted1]

All of them are viable choices and have different advantages and disadvantages.  But only one of them ends up with you in possession of the Thief Guild Leader's gauntlets of stealth that enhance all rogue talents and his short sword +3.

 

Hmm, Im not so sure about that. If weve learned anything from prior "degenerative gameplay" discussions its that apparently most players are utterly incapable of controlling their actions and will always take the path of least resistance or whatever rewards the best loot, even if it destroys their own enjoyment of the game. If the only way to get those boss gauntlets is to pry them off his cold dead fingers then that's what everyone will do.

[eschaton]

All of them are viable choices and have different advantages and disadvantages.  But only one of them ends up with you in possession of the Thief Guild Leader's gauntlets of stealth that enhance all rogue talents and his short sword +3.

 

If (similar to Arcanum and Fallout) the game has realistic 24-hour cycles, rather than NPCs who stand in place all day, you could easily find a way to lift his gear when he's asleep as well.  For that matter, you could kill him in his sleep.  I hope so anyway.  I hated how in Fallout: New Vegas you could shoot someone point blank in the head who was asleep and still not kill them instantly.  

[Rahelron]

The witcher 2 gave almost no XP for defeating enamies. 95% of your total XP came from completing quests. I'm completely fine with that, it offers many advantages:

 

1- Grinding stops to be a mandatory thing, even for those powerplayers who want to maximize their character's combat potential.

2- Developers have better control over the maximum level players can reach and can balance the game accordingly.

3- Players get the exact amount of experience if they complete quests in a pacific way.

 

 

I also agree with the OP on the fact that monster waves are for God of War and Dante's Inferno, not for RPGs. Waves were one of the worst things in DA2, they were completely unrealistic and not fun at all.

 

Project eternity has some core features that would make wave combat even worse. Its strategic gameplay (real time with pause, 6 characters group, top down view etc...) does not match with concepts like enemy waves, an endless stream of foes and "enemy types". The games which include such features are those that want the player to enter a state of flux where he enjoys to keep going and do all its character's moves fluidly. But to achieve such a thing the player has to control just one character and have an interface that doesn't need any pause to be used at its full potential. PE is a completely different thing.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Rahelron

[Odd Hermit]

In some games farming easy enemies just allowed you to out level content that proved difficult/risky/etc. I personally have no issue with that possibility as it seems a viable tactic and a reasonable approach. I do enjoy combat and power gaming/character building aspect of games like old IE and NWN and challenging boss fights(BGII ToB with mods), but I also like not feeling as though I need to find and kill every small quest and enemy if I want to get as much of the limited total possible XP available.

 

I'm hoping/expecting to see an experience system that adjusts to bring parties up to the level of the content they're doing quickly while still allowing some room to be a bit ahead for those who still want to scour every location for every bit of XP. It's just as bad to limit XP by a static number of enemies as it is to limit it too harshly by quest experience though. I want to feel like I'm doing things for my character's/party's motivations and not for a game-y currency.

 

 

 

[rjshae]

Seriously though, with quests rewards being the sole conduit of experience points I sure hope they are varied and interesting and don't turn into a dump of collection quests.

 

Perhaps we should do like they did with Wastelands 2 forums and start a 'Quest ideas' thread to see what sort of original notions we can come up with? There's bound to be a nugget or two they could use.

[Prometheus]

 

All of them are viable choices and have different advantages and disadvantages.  But only one of them ends up with you in possession of the Thief Guild Leader's gauntlets of stealth that enhance all rogue talents and his short sword +3.

 

Hmm, Im not so sure about that. If weve learned anything from prior "degenerative gameplay" discussions its that apparently most players are utterly incapable of controlling their actions and will always take the path of least resistance or whatever rewards the best loot, even if it destroys their own enjoyment of the game. If the only way to get those boss gauntlets is to pry them off his cold dead fingers then that's what everyone will do.

 

 

That depends. if you know that one path is the best, I think most players will take this path. I think if a player doesn't like an outcome of a quest, most players will reload and try a different path. I think the best way is, to make quests with different outcomes but with advantages and disadvantages and not one path that is always the best.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Prometheus

[Gfted1]

 

Seriously though, with quests rewards being the sole conduit of experience points I sure hope they are varied and interesting and don't turn into a dump of collection quests.

 

Perhaps we should do like they did with Wastelands 2 forums and start a 'Quest ideas' thread to see what sort of original notions we can come up with? There's bound to be a nugget or two they could use.

 

Great idea! Start one up.

[Gfted1]

That depends. if you know that one path is the best, I think most players will take this path.

Oh, but I do know. I purchased the strategy guide.

 

I think if a player doesn't like an outcome of a quest, most players will reload and try a different path.

That's what I usually do. You should have seen how many times I saved and reloaded while using the Machine of Lum the Mad in BG2. It would have made gaming purist crap themselves with rage.

 

I think the best way is, to make quests with different outcomes but with advantages and disadvantages and not one path that is always the best.

And here lies the true challenge. While your rogue could really use the exampled gauntlets, your mage probably has no use. So whats "good" for one may not be "good" for all.

[Karkarov]

 

All of them are viable choices and have different advantages and disadvantages.  But only one of them ends up with you in possession of the Thief Guild Leader's gauntlets of stealth that enhance all rogue talents and his short sword +3.

 

Hmm, Im not so sure about that. If weve learned anything from prior "degenerative gameplay" discussions its that apparently most players are utterly incapable of controlling their actions and will always take the path of least resistance or whatever rewards the best loot, even if it destroys their own enjoyment of the game. If the only way to get those boss gauntlets is to pry them off his cold dead fingers then that's what everyone will do.

 

That's perfectly fine.  As long as they are okay with becoming enemies with most thieve guilds in the world and having a contract put on their heads and suffering random bounty hunter attacks and assassination attempts.  You know how it is, whatever floats their boat.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Karkarov

[Failion]

Obviously the focus on combat will not be like the  IWD series. IWD games did not rely on combat entirely they had good itemization mainly the first game. I remember my rouge archer found enough trinkets to literally turn his bow into a machine gun putting out 30 damage about every round and became awesome. You couldn't do this with icewind dale 2 because of how much 3rd edition dnd sucks when dealing with ranged weapons. How can you innovate infinity engine games besides combat? Perhaps obsidian should look at wasteland 2 and how skills work in that game to give them ideas.

[Tsuga C]

Leave the grinding for the millers of the world.  If P:E takes us from Level 1 to somewhere between level 16-18, I've no interest in slogging through respawning trash mobs for the 32nd time to try and hit Level 18 before the final showdown.  If I can't make it to Level 18 because of the roleplaying choices I made with that particular protagonist, then that's just the way the ball bounces.

[Bloody Hypocrite]

My thinking is that if the PC is the initiator of descions, rather than a party based skill set, you won't be able to always choose the best outcome from an encounter, even when reloading the game.

[PrimeJunta]

That's what I usually do. You should have seen how many times I saved and reloaded while using the Machine of Lum the Mad in BG2. It would have made gaming purist crap themselves with rage.

And this is where you keep being stubbornly wrong, Gfted1.

 

"Gaming purists" -- i.e., those of us discussing degenerate strategies like the one you're describing -- are not mad at players for exploiting them. FWIW I did exactly the same thing in exactly the same place. What we do is just this:

 

(1) Ask if an activity is enjoyable or not.

(2) If we decide it's not, have a preference for games that do not reward the activity over games that do reward it.

 

Many of us feel that farming, grinding, save-and-reloading, rest-spamming, trekking back and forth between a dungeon and a shop etc. are not enjoyable activities compared to, say, exploration, discovery of lore, finding treasure, solving problems, solving puzzles, and defeating enemies that stand between you and your objective. Therefore, we prefer mechanics that do not reward the former, but do reward the latter.

 

I still don't get how come you take it as a personal slight, or a criticism of your style of playing these games.

 

Note: I do get the appeal of the hunt-for-monsters-to-slay-for-XP mechanic that was so central to Baldur's Gate (although much less so for BG2 or the other IE games). I realize this is close to the defining characteristic of BG-style gameplay for some players, and that these players will miss it if it's not present in P:E. I do not fall into that group myself, but I understand where they're coming from. I think there would be more enjoyable ways to implement a similar feeling, though, but that would be a bit of a tangent.

[Zed]

IWD1 was fine IMO. A lot of combat but at least it was varied. IWD2 is garbage in every ragard compared to IWD1.

 

BG2 struck a good chord with its encounter design. Just remove the ability to rest-farm monster xp, and it'll be optimal.

[Gfted1]

Many of us feel that farming, grinding, save-and-reloading, rest-spamming, trekking back and forth between a dungeon and a shop etc. are not enjoyable activities compared to, say, exploration, discovery of lore, finding treasure, solving problems, solving puzzles, and defeating enemies that stand between you and your objective. Therefore, we prefer mechanics that do not reward the former, but do reward the latter.

That's awesome and I support your ability to play the game the way you want to. All of that has been in your direct control for all IE games. If only we all had the same opinion of enjoyable as you do we wouldn't have to create disincentives.

[Amentep]

Huh...I never saved before using the Lum machine.

[Gfted1]

Im a remorseless save and reload machine. Heres another crazy one I do. If even one party member dies during combat I will reload and replay the battle just because I want every party member to survive every encounter. You don't earn XP face down on the dungeon floor. No doubt saving should be restricted to once every 24 hours real time to save me from myself.

[Rahelron]

Im a remorseless save and reload machine. Heres another crazy one I do. If even one party member dies during combat I will reload and replay the battle just because I want every party member to survive every encounter. You don't earn XP face down on the dungeon floor. No doubt saving should be restricted to once every 24 hours real time to save me from myself.

 

I think that was what every IE player did. Moreover at high difficulty levels Baldur's Gate punished deaths horrnibly: i remember that everytime a character died there was a chance of permadeath, and that there was a permanent costitution loss for every resurrection.

 

But this is not necessarly a good thing. Inventory management, rest spamming (solved in BG2) and death penalties were really annoying in Baldur's Gate. I know it was made for the sake of following the D&D ruleset and I think that with PE we can get rid of those things (since it's not D&D anymore). I'm perfectly fine with the need to rest and eat, and with death penalties too, but those game mechanics can be managed in a better way. Character skills and feats shouldn't be usable only once-per-rest. Players should just get dice roll penalties if they don't sleep at least 8 hours a day for example.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Rahelron

[PrimeJunta]

That's awesome and I support your ability to play the game the way you want to. All of that has been in your direct control for all IE games. If only we all had the same opinion of enjoyable as you do we wouldn't have to create disincentives.

And I support your ability to play the game you want to as well. P:E will surely allow you to save-and-reload all you want, hunt for random monsters to kill all you want, and trek back and forth between dungeons and shops all you want too, if you consider those enjoyable activities. It just won't reward you for it.

 

Now, what was your complaint again?

[Amentep]

Im a remorseless save and reload machine. Heres another crazy one I do. If even one party member dies during combat I will reload and replay the battle just because I want every party member to survive every encounter. You don't earn XP face down on the dungeon floor. No doubt saving should be restricted to once every 24 hours real time to save me from myself.

 

The only time I reloaded was when the character got chunked (or if it was very early and paying for a spell was beyond my means).

[Sarex]

IWD1 was fine IMO. A lot of combat but at least it was varied. IWD2 is garbage in every ragard compared to IWD1.

 

BG2 struck a good chord with its encounter design. Just remove the ability to rest-farm monster xp, and it'll be optimal.

 

Yeah... That is your opinion, for me IWD2 is the best game in the IE series. While it was linear, it had the best gameplay, the music was awesome, and the atmosphere was beatuifull.

 

Im a remorseless save and reload machine. Heres another crazy one I do. If even one party member dies during combat I will reload and replay the battle just because I want every party member to survive every encounter. You don't earn XP face down on the dungeon floor. No doubt saving should be restricted to once every 24 hours real time to save me from myself.

 

I did that too, but mostly because your companion dying would sometimes cause bugs in the dialogue (stopping them altogether), so I didn't want to risk it.

[Gfted1]

Ah, that's another one. I would save before scribing every single spell, just in case it failed, then I would reload until it succeeded.

[Sarex]

Ah, that's another one. I would save before scribing every single spell, just in case it failed, then I would reload until it succeeded.

 

MAN, the feeling when you successfully learn 5 lvl 9 spells in a row, with only one save.