Fear of women body in modern videogames

[Orogun01]

 

 

Because men aren't sexualized like women are? It's not a hard concept to grasp.

 

 

Come on man, pretty much all main male characters could drop their hero careers at any time to make a living as models, they all have great physique and they're all pretty! Chris Redfield, Ezio Auditore, Nathan Drake, Raiden (not the MK one), the new prince of persia, I could go on and on. And they're not sexualized? you can have freaking sex with Alistar from Dragon Age!

 

And you could say that they all have good physique because of their line of work, but beign healthy and in shape doesn't mean that you have to look good, I remember Fedor Emilianenko had a pot belly and went undefeated for many years in MMA. Also  their line of work doesn't justify them beign pretty and charming and all that ****.

 

And to be clear, I have zero issues if a male character is appealing to the gaming ladies, but if a female character is visually appealing to men, well that's a ****ing crime now.

 

The feminist rationale behind that is that the sexualization of males relates to their power, strong men with big muscles and that because of that it isn't the same as women's.

Personally I just think that they are splitting hairs.

[Monte Carlo]

Oby is easily my favourite troll on this forum. Computer and Console is a happier place with him in it, am glad he made the long trek from WoT.

[WorstUsernameEver]

but trying to take out any form of imagination/idealization for the sake of realism is equally ridiculous.

Except I've never seen anyone seriously advocating for that.

[Sannom]

There are plenty of Chauvinist men, gaming doesn't cause this kind of sexism, as I said before there are other countries were women are not even treated like people, let me tell you something, these countries are not really big on gaming, You could say that those societies are really patriarchic and sexists, but I would say the cause is lack of education, lack of social development and also religion.

They're not big on any sort of cultures, actually. Video games aren't really on the top list of what they could use. Books are on there, along with basic literacy.

As for the last sentence... those societies are patriarcal and sexist, lack of education and social development, along with the violent and loud reaction of the power-holders to any kind of change, are what keeps them this way.

 

But girls really wear such clothes, sexy fantasy girls looks realistic.

Women in the real world can dress however they want, show as much skin as they wish, that's a right they fought hard enough to obtain. Women in video games and any kind of media tend to be designed for their sex appeal, and the targed of that is men. Hence why you have aberrations like the chainmail bikini trope, which makes people scratch their head and ask "What's the point of all the metal?", full-plate armor coming with boob-plates despite those being actually dangerous for the wearer, etc. Those are the things that annoys people the most, I think.

[Amentep]

To be fair, women dressing sexy in the real world usually aren't going into battle with their broad axe against people with magic, swords, etc. either.

 

I think - to some degree - fashion gets skewed in role playing games because everyone runs around in their armor at all times whether it makes sense or not (grocery buying IN FULL MAIL! visit the theater IN FULL MAIL! etc).

[Volourn]

There are plenty of sexist women, gaming doesn't cause this kind of sexism, as I said before there are  countries were men are not even treated like people, let me tell you something, these countries are  really big on gaming, You could say that those societies are really matriachic and sexist, but I would say the cause is lack of the right education, lack of  commons ense social development and also religion has no part in it.

[HoonDing]

Princess Zelda finally sexually liberated.

[Malcador]

Nice sword, though

[Meshugger]

The "sword" represents her feeble attempt to try control the ultimate phallos symbol, the male dong. But as the picture descripts, she she cannot withstand the cheer size of it and has to succumb to its raw, masculine power.

 

Thus gender dimorphism has been asserted. Patriarchy wins.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Meshugger

[Zoraptor]

If every male party member was depicted with a loincloth and massive bulge I would be offended as I would feel it doesn't accurately represent what men are really like. I would see this as unrealistic and juvenile view of men. I am a man and this is what I feel so I'm sure other men would share my sentiment.

 

I'm sure some would be as well, but I'd still be pretty confident most men do not think that way.

 

Think of, er, another adult male fantasy fulfilment based entertainment from, where- so I'm told- the Mail Man or Pizza Delivery Boy regularly deliver their large packages to a Bored Housewife or Sorority House Having Party. It's very rare for Pizza Delivery Boy to be delivering anything other than the king size option or Mail Man to be delivering a postcard rather than a Big Boxed GrosserWurst, if you get my drift. Yet that form of entertainment is perhaps the most popular one on the planet with blokes. If most males did not feel comfortable with being represented by someone well blessed by genetics/ DietyName/ SurgeonName that form of entertainment would not be so popular as it'd just make them feel inadequate. It is also, of course, another entertainment form which tends to have somewhat unrealistic representations of women.

[Azdeus]

"There is very little you would not do willingly. Except.

 

A) Sit in a windowseat of a small airplane as you circle in a holding pattern for two hours, even if the captain assures you that you have plenty of fuel and the weather is good.

 

B) Ever admit once, just once, that you were turned on by a videogame character.

 

C) Spend a week walking through the desert, even though you know the woman of your dreams waits on the other side.

 

D) Software development."

Edited June 13, 2013 by Azdeus

[Chaz]

The feminist rationale behind that is that the sexualization of males relates to their power, strong men with big muscles and that because of that it isn't the same as women's.

Personally I just think that they are splitting hairs.

 

 

Well Agent Smith, I find it ironic that feminists always say that men are not qualified to talk about women, but they're gonna tell us what our fantasies are? Sorry but it's not my fantasy to look like The freaking Hulk, thank you.

 

Besides, many of the characters I named are in great shape but  they are not muscular per se, Nathan Drake beign one of them. I also mentioned that they are all pretty, charming or funny, I guess that's also part of the male fantasy and none of it is to appeal to women, so much bs.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Chaz

[Furiku]

_{And RPG developers were so progressive at one point and not sexually repressed at all…}

 

_{Now Josh Sawyer is going to design his games with Christian conservatives and extremist feminists in mind in accordance with Sharia law, he really knows his audience so well.}

[alanschu]

Query

 

Lady Evenstar makes a point about context. Is some of the negative perception arising from the gamers not the games? You could attend the most sophisticated and breathtakingly female centric Spanish film ever made about sexuality, but if you attended it in a room full of 16 year old boys it's going to seem sleazy.

 

 

I think this is a reasonable hypothesis.  Something I don't know if I properly considered.  By making hyper sexualized games, you inevitably get discussions like this?

[Hurlshort]

This thread sure does bring the crazy out.

[alanschu]

 

Isn't being a White Knight a good thing?

 

 

Some women think otherwise.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9XDb0nxSO4

 

 

I don't think white knighting is a good thing.  No one likes it when someone falsely represents their opinion.  I had a guy get into a huge huff with my volleyball league, and then later said he wasn't doing it just for himself, but also for my own benefit.  At that point I booted him from my team.

 

Also, "nice guys" rarely are.  Many of them don't really realize that they often place women up on pedestals, which has the unfortunate effect of not only making the woman uncomfortable, but ends up ultimately objectifying them.  Many "nice guys" also get very frustrated when the mere act of being nice is insufficient to get a relationship (or even sex...) from a woman they are interested in.  (I've struggled with this in my own past, to be honest).

 

 

While I do know some women that find general trends for how women are depicted distrubing, I also know some that don't care.  I don't hold this position on their behalf, however.  I hold it because it's something I want to see improvements in.

[alanschu]

 

 

How the heck is Isabella a "middle-ground"? That lady doesn't even wear pants! She's firmly on the scantily-clad side, and proud of it!

 

Isabela is created as a juxtaposition.  Her appearance is meant to illicit a stereotypical reaction.  The thing about Isabela, however, is that her presence in the game is much more about female empowerment than female fan service.  In fact, she's utilized in a variety of ways to throw the gamer off kilter somewhat.

 

If you listen to Isabela's conversations, she is very much about empowering not only herself, but the other females of the group.  She recognizes Merril's naivety, and takes her under her wing.  Her and Aveline don't get along at all, but in the end she's still about smacking sense into Aveline for some of the absurd preconceptions and reservations that she has - and does so in her decidedly crude and Isabela sort of way.  Yes Isabela fits a common trope, but her creation was done so in a way to challenge the stereotype, as opposed to simply being an attractive woman that exists solely to serve male love interests.  She initially rejects Hawke, and ultimately isn't actually interested in any sort of maturing, serious relationship unless you happen to be rivals with her, a position that many gamers are unwilling to take (especially since most assumed Rivalry = bad).

 

In my anecdotal experience, Isabela is typically a character that resonates quite strongly with female gamers actually.  First impressions were typically not very favourable, but I think that is why many ended up really enjoying her as a character.  At least in the discussions I have had.  /shrug

 

That said, I actually agree that BioWare can make much bigger steps in this direction and I hope they continue to do so.  I don't doubt that Isabela was used in marketing because of her appearance rather than her character, and stuff like that is much less interesting and I'd like to see us be more bold in the ways that we approach appearance and marketing, rather than falling on the safe and easy tropes.

[alanschu]

The question that I keep returning to is, are video games suppose to be taken in the same light as life style magazines? Furthermore, has realism ever been an actual goal?

 

From curvy women to massive space marines, were we pushing for realism? 

 

I can agree that over-sexualization and over-pandering is annoying, but trying to take out any form of imagination/idealization for the sake of realism is equally ridiculous. 

 

I don't think games actually look to push for realism (some do, but certainly not all, and that's okay).

 

I think an important thing to note is that regardless of female and male depiction, there's an uneven distribution in what roles they typically play in games.  Specifically with regards to male protagonists.

 

I do think that if (magically), games suddenly all shifted to having males invoking homosexual relationships, there'd be a lot of discomfort among gamers.  There's a good chance I'd even be one of them.  The push is mostly a reflection of changes in demands.  Some of them from people like me, that have been gamers for 3 decades, but I think the population of gamers has changed a lot.  And I don't even mean the inclusion of females.  I think demographic shifts with age groups have also been significant, both as gamers grow up, and as consoles like the Wii even have an appeal for people that don't typically classify themselves as gamers.  For some, the Wii is equivalent of a gateway drug.  Just as, for many, games like the Sims were their introduction into gaming.

 

 

For myself, I more interested in diversity.  I think, as gaming becomes more commonplace, it will exert greater social influence.  So while people may groan that BioWare has more gay romances, I have no problems being a part of that as I think it helps perpetuate an idea that "being gay is okay."  It'll hardly make many (if any) have epiphanies that go "You know, I was totally a homophobe, but now I'm totally okay with homosexuality," but it's all a part of socialization and the shifts it influences long term, so in that regard I consider it a positive.

 

Hypersexualization for the point of hypersexualization is not something I really consider as a positive.  In some cases it can work fine, but excessive use undermines both gamers and gaming culture in general, IMO.  And I do include the hypersexualization of men as well.  Although I'd need to experience more games where I play as a hypersexualized female with a hypersexualized male love interest to be fair, I think.

[Nepenthe]

 

 She initially rejects Hawke, and ultimately isn't actually interested in any sort of maturing, serious relationship unless you happen to be rivals with her, a position that many gamers are unwilling to take (especially since most assumed Rivalry = bad).

 

 

Hmm, that doesn't reflect my recollections. I mean, I've never done the rivalry route with her, but IIRC the final outcome is pretty much that. Is the storyline progression different in that way?

 

I was writing a rant about "empowerment", feminist jargon and ideology, the usual failure of assuming that there is a baseline society with a certain gender balance etc. but I started getting those little black dots swimming in my eyes and crtl-axed the whole thing.

[alanschu]

Isabela has some moments of epiphany with the rivalry romance.  That's not to say her friendship romance is a poor one, but I enjoyed her character coming to the realization that she can do more and be better than she has been.

[TrashMan]

"There is very little you would not do willingly. Except.

 

A) Sit in a windowseat of a small airplane as you circle in a holding pattern for two hours, even if the captain assures you that you have plenty of fuel and the weather is good.

 

B) Ever admit once, just once, that you were turned on by a videogame character.

 

C) Spend a week walking through the desert, even though you know the woman of your dreams waits on the other side.

 

D) Software development."

 

God bless Jagged Alliance 2.

[Chaz]

_{And RPG developers were so progressive at one point and not sexually repressed at all…}

 

_{Now Josh Sawyer is going to design his games with Christian conservatives and extremist feminists in mind in accordance with Sharia law, he really knows his audience so well.}

What the...  where did this come from?

[Walsingham]

1992?

[Nonek]

 

How the heck is Isabella a "middle-ground"? That lady doesn't even wear pants! She's firmly on the scantily-clad side, and proud of it!

 

Isabela is created as a juxtaposition.  Her appearance is meant to illicit a stereotypical reaction.  The thing about Isabela, however, is that her presence in the game is much more about female empowerment than female fan service.  In fact, she's utilized in a variety of ways to throw the gamer off kilter somewhat.

 

If you listen to Isabela's conversations, she is very much about empowering not only herself, but the other females of the group.  She recognizes Merril's naivety, and takes her under her wing.  Her and Aveline don't get along at all, but in the end she's still about smacking sense into Aveline for some of the absurd preconceptions and reservations that she has - and does so in her decidedly crude and Isabela sort of way.  Yes Isabela fits a common trope, but her creation was done so in a way to challenge the stereotype, as opposed to simply being an attractive woman that exists solely to serve male love interests.  She initially rejects Hawke, and ultimately isn't actually interested in any sort of maturing, serious relationship unless you happen to be rivals with her, a position that many gamers are unwilling to take (especially since most assumed Rivalry = bad).

 

In my anecdotal experience, Isabela is typically a character that resonates quite strongly with female gamers actually.  First impressions were typically not very favourable, but I think that is why many ended up really enjoying her as a character.  At least in the discussions I have had.  /shrug

 

That said, I actually agree that BioWare can make much bigger steps in this direction and I hope they continue to do so.  I don't doubt that Isabela was used in marketing because of her appearance rather than her character, and stuff like that is much less interesting and I'd like to see us be more bold in the ways that we approach appearance and marketing, rather than falling on the safe and easy tropes.

 

 

I'm sorry that I seem to be harping on this point sir, but I can't help but call you out here. Isabella had empowerment as a motive? This is a woman so stupid she can't wear appropriate clothing in an enviroment where she'll suffer from hypothermia, so idiotic she doesn't realise that the combat every ten feet in Kirkwall requires armour of some kind. She is massively incompetent, unmotivated and basically a slave to another character for ten years, putting her life on the line at their bidding. This isn't empowerment, those are the actions of an idiot. If this was the writers intention i'd suggest that they go back to the game and make an enhanced edition, because they failed spectacularly, and certainly hindered the depiction of women in video games.

 

No disrespect intended but i'm surprised anyone would champion passive slavery and rampant idiocy as positive female characteristics, much less try to spin them as empowerment.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Nonek

[Malcador]

 

_{And RPG developers were so progressive at one point and not sexually repressed at all…}

 

_{Now Josh Sawyer is going to design his games with Christian conservatives and extremist feminists in mind in accordance with Sharia law, he really knows his audience so well.}

What the...  where did this come from?

 

Game companies sure were a lot looser back in the 90s.