Update #39: Non-Core Classes, Cooldowns, Attack Resolution, Damage vs. Armor and a Tileset!

[Sandro G Meier]

Great update! Just curious about the ranger, sharing the same health and stamina pool that doesn't matter, but if the ranger have to got a animal companion, there will make things bit different: Can I assume that there won't be any animal companions that would related to the storyline(eg. Dogmeat)? So if there was a ranger companion, he/she would bring an animal companion, as well?

 

hmm...I think I saw a legion of animials(plus druid(druid: huh?me?))

[Osvir]

 

 

 

 

 

I see 2 Characters in there that hasn't been revealed yet

 

Number 1 furthest to the Left. Cipher or Barbarian? (The charging guy?) *wait...* that's an Orlan!?

Number 3 has red beard, chainmail hoodie, Paladin most likely.

 

* Several things I am noticing about the combat aesthetics:

 

WOW!

 

Haha. I can totally see the choreography in movement and it excites me, it looks very nostalgic with an updated combat visual. The core looks like it might be the same (nothing bad about that). The first, somewhat Rogue-like enemy to the left, looks like he just dodged an attack to his own left. Hunching down.

 

The enemy to the right looks like he just took a blow, it might be early model+animation (most likely) but for some reason it looks like his arm got "limp" or that his model/animation got "hit" and there was some sort of "impact" shifting his body with the blow. Or the guy in front of him is about to give him a backhand attack.

[Oner]

As for the Barbarian, the first thing you would expect from a Barbarian is the "Rage" ability. They didn't address the Rage ability in this update (if there is one) and gave us a more balanced take on just simple bonus movement speed.

They do allude to some kind of rage mechanics. From KS update 15:

"Barbarians come from many of the more remote cultures found across the world. In the Dyrwood, they are commonly found among Glanfathan elf communities. They are distinguished from fighters by their recklessness, ferocity, and their predilection to substitute raw aggression for discipline. Barbarians are a challenge to deal with on a battlefield, though they are vulnerable to exhaustion if they don't pace themselves."

 

Great update, awesome sounding Cypher. My only gripe is with the X use/day abilities. I find that a very articifial limitation, that is of course circumvented with rest spamming. Though if it's only a part of the barbarian mechanics (vulnerable to exhaustion), then I guess that could work?

[Oner]

I see 2 Characters in there that hasn't been revealed yet

 

Number 1 furthest to the Left. Cipher or Barbarian? (The charging guy?) *wait...* that's an Orlan!?

Number 3 has red beard, chainmail hoodie, Paladin most likely.

Number 3 is Cadegung, who is a priestess.

[Nordicus]

As for the Barbarian, the first thing you would expect from a Barbarian is the "Rage" ability. They didn't address the Rage ability in this update (if there is one) and gave us a more balanced take on just simple bonus movement speed.

 

I hope they'll give their own version of Barbarian enough little twists, Torchlight 2 showed that it can be done. While yes, Torchlight 2 is different sub-genre of RPG, they managed to make the "Berserker" look new and fresh, only making one of the 3 skill trees straight up "old-school Barbarian" (even then, with varying degrees of attack power, speed and critical hit emphasis). One of the skill trees revolved around dealing frost and lightning damage in different ways, and the last one had you inflict shadow-themed debuffs, and summoning all sorts of wolf spirits.

 

It was a very Druid-ish way to make a Barbarian

[Osvir]

 

I see 2 Characters in there that hasn't been revealed yet

 

Number 1 furthest to the Left. Cipher or Barbarian? (The charging guy?) *wait...* that's an Orlan!?

Number 3 has red beard, chainmail hoodie, Paladin most likely.

Number 3 is Cadegung, who is a priestess.

When did Cadegund get a beard?

 

EDIT: It might be the resolution. It looks like you are correct, but it does look like a beard xD

Comparing with this one:

 

http://media.pcgamer.com/files/2012/10/project_eternity.jpg

 

Edited January 23, 2013 by Osvir

[Sensuki]

I see 2 Characters in there that hasn't been revealed yet

 

Number 1 furthest to the Left. Cipher or Barbarian? (The charging guy?) *wait...* that's an Orlan!?

 

Nah that's an Aumaua, not an Orlan.

I think something to consider, that I think Obs is considering, is the power of having an animal companion+Ranged combat. It is very powerful for an already powerful class. Ranged combat is very strong in many games. Adding in a "Beast" to an already strong class, phew. I am not against it, I've been advocating it after all.

 

Maybe the Ranger either has to focus his Soul into controlling the animal, or focusing his Soul into Ranged combat. In this way, you'd choose to attack with the animal or the bow.

 

1. Attack with Animal

2. Enemy reacts

3. Enemy turn (Attack animal)

4. Animal reacts (block/dodge w/e)

5. Attack with Bow

6. Enemy reacts

7. Enemy turn (Attack animal)

 

However, don't know how pretty it would look, skipping a turn for the animal like that.

 

Adding an animal to the Ranger gives them both Long-Range and Close-Range combat at once. Which I think can become a rather big "Powerhouse" build (as it can get). I'm advocating for that the Ranger himself/herself as a Beastmaster gets a "Whip" and must be up close. Perhaps being able to "Whip" the animal so it gets extra bonuses (Perhaps there could be some sort of "Animal Morale" and/or "Animal Reputation" for doing that though..).

 

Animal mechanics! Lots of stuff to think about there.

Why are you thinking about it in turns/rounds ? You select both your animal companion and your ranger and left-click to attack (YES LEFT CLICK, looking at you Dragon Age), they both attack at the same time

 

I'm sure they'll 'balance' it out but I bloody hope they don't try and make it so that each class is doing a very similar amount of DPS. Hopefully there's quite a lot of variation between the DPS and how consistent classes deal damage (some would be consistent, others bursty).

Edited January 23, 2013 by Sensuki

[Valorian]

Oh my, we have some important things to discuss here.

 

1) This is quite a horrible change. Before this change your character could kind of still work in a "bad" weapon-vs-armor scenario, but with this huge arbitrary drop of -50% damage before armor mitigation, you're making it completely unviable. It's unintuitive and makes the reflex-switch, when you see a baddy armor in the tool-tip, a necessity. For the sake of... what? 

What was the problem before? Can't the player switch weapons when he sees he's doing 1 damage to his target?

 

Isn't it preferable, from a tactical combat perspective, for the player to dynamically adjust his tactics, exhibiting tactical awareness, instead of having laid out what needs to be done in a tool-tip, beforehand?

 

2) I'm not sure I follow. So if the effect did +50% the sword's damage, it would be opposed to 50% of the damage threshold? Why does more damage lead to more DT being applied? Why is this bonus elemental damage a percentage?

Is this bonus damage in-game actually a flat damage value (or damage range), but expressed in a percentage here for this example, to explain how it works against armor?

 

1) Damage types are either good or bad against a given weight classification. When a damage type is "bad" against an armor type, it does half damage before DT is applied, making it very inefficient.

2) Weapon bonus damage that is energy-based is applied to the target separately, but at a fractional DT value matching the bonus damage. E.g. if a sword has a fire effect that does +15% the sword's damage, it is opposed by 15% of the target's Damage Threshold.

[Macs]

Nice update Josh! Classes sound interesting, and mechanics sound solid so far. Few things not as impressive though, primarily the scale of the heros seem about 15%-20% too small. I know its a work in progress, but I couldn't distinguish Jack from Jill and there's not much detail to see in the hero model. (I was hoping for a modern day game you guys might have adressed stuff like that.) Are there gonna be any little races? Also the scale of the tile sets seem a bit claustrophobic for a group of six plus monsters in that space. Maybe the encounters are not too many though? I'm kinda worried how the ui or hud will work with that as well because it looks like a single pop up or loot box would be as big as the player and you may lose hierarchy and legibility trying to read. Oh speaking of legibility, can ya guys have a wee bit of negative space in between lines so our eyes don't get too tired from straining to read like some of the old IE games did?

 

It's really early in developement and I don't think any of the models are even remotely close to what they might look like in the finished game. We usually don't get an insight into game developement in such an early state, as there actually isn't much impressive stuff to show, except for some artwork. But with this crowdfund project (and some other devs with close community ties) we get to see some of the stuff they are working on, but we shouldn't forget what it is that we are seeing.

 

On the other hand, I share your general sentiment. As superficial as it may sound, in my opinion the greatest advantage of far more modern technology for an isometric cRPG is that it can do some really nice visual stuff. A slick combat system is great as well, which some classic isometric games unfortunately lacked in. But being able to customize your characters and the NPCs and actually see your avatar wearing another suit of armour or robe or weapon and being able to distinguish the characters, even though they don't take as much space as in many modern RPGs, is an immensely possible improvement. With games like Torment, where the characters themselves looked so different, there wasn't much need for that, but when I look at Baldur's Gate 2 and compare it to e.g. Neverwinter Nights 2, I really missed the visual aspect of customization.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Wonderful update, Josh!

 

The combat system seems very interesting indeed. But how will the game play? I mean, IE games are obviously built around pause. When I play BG EE now, although I've disabled most tickbox-reasons for pause, it still pauses quite a bit. That is good if you're new to this kind of CRPGs, but if you're a bit more seasoned, it can be annoying. Also, no pause in BG EE today, feels like the party are standing the throwing punches on flies. There are a lot of misses, so I'm glad for glancing blows. BG EE combat today feels twitchy. And, I mean, in NWN2, the first couple of gos, one did use pause sometimes, but when you got used to the system and had meta-gamey knowledge, I rarely did pause at all. So, how does PE play when you don't pause? Does it keep you on your toes and is there a combat flow to it, where party and enemeies move around constantly? Sure, it won't be an action CRPG like Diablo or something, but it can still be a nice flow to the combat.

 

And your emphasis on tilesets makes me drool. I mean, what if you could mod it like you could in NWN1? That was sure a bit easier than NWN2 - but I'd be good modding at that level too. I just keep my fingers crossed it won't be too hard to make mods for PE when that day comes.

 

A question: Why distinguish between Natural armor and Armor armour? I mean, it's still, say, hides, stone and metal. There shouldn't be a distinction, no? Or is it there as some system that druids and rangers can take advantage of. They get bonuses against truly natural armours as opposed to artificial or handmade armour?

 

And chanters are getting cooler by the day! Here's an idea: What if chanters can use their songs to block ciphers' sound manipulations, almost like those music-cranking dudes in Dishonored that block out Corvos abilities via music.

 

On why the heavy D&D inspiration:

1) OE's PE was from the get go overtly inspired by IE-games, and they are fans of it to begin with

2) It's been explicitly asked for by backers, including classes

3) Most CRPGs (including MMOs) I've seen are more or less direct descendants of Gary Gyxax' garage figurine melee fest

 

Will it be D&D? No, we see so much innovation already from the devs, but it will definitely be a game in the spirit of that great tradition. Although, I think MonteCarlo's special clowns will be sorely missed.

Edited January 23, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot

[Osvir]

 

I see 2 Characters in there that hasn't been revealed yet

 

Number 1 furthest to the Left. Cipher or Barbarian? (The charging guy?) *wait...* that's an Orlan!?

 

Nah that's an Aumaua, not an Orlan.

>I think something to consider, that I think Obs is considering, is the power of having an animal companion+Ranged combat. It is very powerful for an already powerful class. Ranged combat is very strong in many games. Adding in a "Beast" to an already strong class, phew. I am not against it, I've been advocating it after all.

 

Maybe the Ranger either has to focus his Soul into controlling the animal, or focusing his Soul into Ranged combat. In this way, you'd choose to attack with the animal or the bow.

 

1. Attack with Animal

2. Enemy reacts

3. Enemy turn (Attack animal)

4. Animal reacts (block/dodge w/e)

5. Attack with Bow

6. Enemy reacts

7. Enemy turn (Attack animal)

 

However, don't know how pretty it would look, skipping a turn for the animal like that.

 

Adding an animal to the Ranger gives them both Long-Range and Close-Range combat at once. Which I think can become a rather big "Powerhouse" build (as it can get). I'm advocating for that the Ranger himself/herself as a Beastmaster gets a "Whip" and must be up close. Perhaps being able to "Whip" the animal so it gets extra bonuses (Perhaps there could be some sort of "Animal Morale" and/or "Animal Reputation" for doing that though..).

 

Animal mechanics! Lots of stuff to think about there.

Why are you thinking about it in turns/rounds ? You select both your animal companion and your ranger and left-click to attack (YES LEFT CLICK, looking at you Dragon Age), they both attack at the same time

 

I'm sure they'll 'balance' it out but I bloody hope they don't try and make it so that each class is doing a very similar amount of DPS. Hopefully there's quite a lot of variation between the DPS and how consistent classes deal damage (some would be consistent, others bursty).

 

 

I'm thinking about in turns, because Dice Rolls are pretty much turns. I'm also thinking of how powerful the Hunter+Animal combo is, and how do you balance that? (Health+Stamina looks to be one way, but is there other ways?).

 

In many cases I think combat will flow = I attack, enemy attack, etc.etc.

 

Turns also makes it easier for the developers to design combat flow. For instance:

1. You attack

2. Enemy defends

3. Enemy attacks

4. You defend

 

Inserting more attacks or special abilities into priority (Instead of using "Wild Sprint" instantly, the previous "animation frame" would have to finish). It makes combat more... uniformed, having "priority" in the dice rolls. P:E is simulating some sort of PnP/D&D play right?

 

Turns. It'd still be real time, you see (as in the picture) your characters fight their battle visually, but in the "spirit" or "mechanics" of it, dice rolls could be jumping back and forth (in turns). All of the IE games also uses turns, just saying. 

 

EDIT: I still think that's an Orlan though. The head resembles this too much when I google, and I'm thinking "Obsidian got inspired by this too":

This to get to google search. Proportionally, the head looks very different than Aumaua.

 

Some of the pictures I found in google search:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Compare facial structure, +back of head, with the zoomed in picture in your post Sensuki. Might be jumping conclusions but, picture from Obsidian+Pictures from "Orlan" google search = Resemblance? Looks like a 1+1 to me.

 

Versus the white war painting coloring of the face. Other pictures when you search "Orlan" in google also resemble the picture more than what these do:

 

 

Aumaua 1: http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/picture.php?albumid=276&pictureid=2921

Aumaua 2: http://www.gamestalker.nl/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Project-Eternity-Barbarian.jpg

 

 

 

Notice the "Back of head" on the dude in the picture. The neck/shoulders, proportionally it looks like this guy has a rather big head, or has a small body frame. Of course, I might be completely wrong ^^

Edited January 23, 2013 by Osvir

[Sensuki]

I think you're thinking too much in terms of GURPS ?

 

The 'dice rolls' as it were are applied whenever an attack is made, which I assume can even be at the same time, in real time multiple attacks can be made at the same time. In this game there will be no active defense, it will be an attack roll made against a passive value.

 

You might have an attack time of 1.8 seconds, but your enemy's attack time might be 2.4 seconds ... at a certain point in time, depending on the mechanics it may be possible that you will both hit each other at the same time.

 

so instead

 

Combat Start

1.8 seconds - your attack

2.4 seconds - enemy attack

3.6 seconds - your attack

4.8 seconds - enemy attack

6.6 seconds - your attack, enemy attack

 

They may give things a second decimal so that one is always first.

 

Because it's using real time, it might feel a bit more RTS like mechanics-wise, but hopefully it will 'feel' (animation/smoothness/timing) like an IE game when you play it.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Sensuki

[Osvir]

But your attack will be decided if it hits or not:

1.8 seconds - Your Attack
- Dice rolls (Turn)
2.4 seconds - Enemy Attack
- Dice rolls (Turn)
3.6 seconds - Your Attack
- Dice rolls (Turn)

Also, I did a little touch up of what I see in that mysterious fellow Aumaua or Orlan. I think it looks like a monkey (I'm not a great artist, just wanted to convey the concept of what I see)

 

versus

Edited January 23, 2013 by Osvir

[Lysen]

To be honest, I don't like screenshot. It looks like ToEE, and I never liked that game.

[cyberarmy]

Woot! Another great update and i like new armor vs. damage style better.  I would like to see more class abilites with more details but i can wait

 

Loving the visiual style even its early stages.

[Monte Carlo]

To be honest, I don't like screenshot. It looks like ToEE, and I never liked that game.

^ THIS

 

I don't like the avatars, they are spiky and odd.

[Osvir]

I made a dungeon with your dungeon


Accidentally lassoed some stuff~ just conceptual tileset stuff? Can a "texture" which looks completely different be placed on top of this map? Could I draw a forest area and just put it on top of the map, but the pathing and everything is still the same? Modding related~ re-using an area and making it into another area basically.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Osvir

[JFSOCC]

I would say "corridor hell" again, but the giant disclaimer saying it's a work in progress means I need to shut up

 

Good update, but could you improve the audio for the next one a little? I had to max out my sound +clear all ambient noise to hear it well.

 

I am now also certain I will be adding a cipher to my party, and a chanter, they both sound awesome.

I'm wondering about tactics using the ranger, like keeping the pet out of combat and using the shared health/stamina just to have a larger pool for the ranger. curious to see if that would work.

[uaciaut]

Really like the more in-depth interaction between spells and spell defenses, it makes a lot of sense and is pretty intuitive as well.

 

Will the effects of chanters' abilities be persistent throughout an encounter or will they need to be refreshed every X seconds or so? Also will Ciphers need to be protected throughout an encounter to maintain their abilities uninterrupted? Basic attacks resetting what would become very powerful attacks would(should) make them big priority targets (both for us when we're fighting enemy ciphers and for the enemy ai), if it works that way.

 

P.S. Screenshot looks AWESOME, thanks! <3

Edited January 23, 2013 by uaciaut

[Valorian]

Alright, analysis time.

 

The rock-paper-scissors armor mechanics and why would it be better to reduce the damage penalty for "bad" damage types to at most -25%. And perhaps limiting the number of times you can switch weapons in combat.

The 50% penalty:

 

*AI is screwed. Will AI focus targets that have "appropriate" armor? If so, the slash-monster with a slashing weapon who runs around the battlefield going after the lightly armored party member because the rest of the party is in heavy armor, causing attacks of opportunity against itself all over the place - is it a good thing?

 

*You face a particularly nasty opponent (within a group or not) that does copious amounts of, say, slashing damage. Too bad, people in your party are all in light or medium armor. No problem! Reload and have them wear heavy armor and laugh the once-nasty opponent out of the battle with his pitiful 50% damage output before DT even comes into play. Shall I say... degeneration?

 

Is this good combat?

 
Lowering the damage penalty would lessen the rock-paper-scissors effect and make the life of AI much easier.

 

Limiting the number of times you can switch weapon sets during combat (to 1 time, could improve with talents) would make it an important tactical decision. Do I throw my shield on the ground (figuratively) and use a two-handed weapon? If I do so I won't be able to pick up the shield until the fight ends so I need to think about it carefully. As opposed to willy-nilly switching weapons when the tool-tip says "DO NOT HIT WITH SLASHING!", "DO NOT HIT WITH CRUSHING!" ...

 

 

- The mechanics for weapon bonus elemental damage sound completely illogical.

[Elerond]

The 50% penalty:

 

 

*AI is screwed. Will AI focus targets that have "appropriate" armor? If so, the slash-monster with a slashing weapon who runs around the battlefield going after the lightly armored party member because the rest of the party is in heavy armor, causing attacks of opportunity against itself all over the place - is it a good thing?

 

*You face a particularly nasty opponent (within a group or not) that does copious amounts of, say, slashing damage. Too bad, people in your party are all in light or medium armor. No problem! Reload and have them wear heavy armor and laugh the once-nasty opponent out of the battle with his pitiful 50% damage output before DT even comes into play. Shall I say... degeneration?

 

When we come from system where party should wear as heavy armor as they can, which adds possibility that enemy can't hit you and, I would say that system where you need think which type armor you use against enemy and which weapon types you use against enemy is not degeneration, but step forward.

 

And damage minus percentage and DT values will probably change when they start testing balancing the game.

 

And if the create system where wrong weapon types give great disadvantage, you probably could expect that nasty enemies have multiple weapons or they have otherwise multiple means to hit you with different damage types. Which could mean that mixed armored parties would be best as you can change on fly whose on your party are taking hits.

[Sensuki]

Yeah I agree about the avatars, they do look like ToEE. But then again how do you make them look like a sprite-avatar? I suppose it has to do with the art style as well.

 

As per anything WiP we're not sure if that's the art style they're going for (ToEE) regarding avatars, would be nice if Rob could elaborate upon that.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Sensuki

[Valorian]

And if the create system where wrong weapon types give great disadvantage, you probably could expect that nasty enemies have multiple weapons or they have otherwise multiple means to hit you with different damage types. Which could mean that mixed armored parties would be best as you can change on fly whose on your party are taking hits.

Oh yes, this is indeed ingenious... having every enemy and their mother switch weapons (even if it's completely out of character) to overcome their "bad" damage type that they've been practicing with their entire lives.

 

I'd expect a zombie to pull a hammer out of its ass if the axe doesn't do the job, correct?

 

Rock golems should start hitting with karate chops to overcome their inherent proficiency for bludgeoning, no?

[domanz]

That map looks exactly like my living room.

 

On a serious note, I'm already afraid that wizards will have as many abilities as in Dragon Age or even less. Can you guys quench my thirst for such a vide variety of spells as was found in, like, Neverwinter Nights? That's really important for me.

 

Oh and Valorian absolutely has a point there.

Edited January 23, 2013 by domanz

[IndiraLightfoot]

Categorizing them weapons into categories will be important: And some weapons that haven't been favourites among the masses before perhaps will be the new black, as it were, e.g. halberds. Lucerne hammers, anyone?

 

Personally, I feel an urge to pickup a good old flail, the kind where you have a spiked ball on a chain, coz the way I see it you get bludgeoning, slashing and piercing there, all rolled into one.  

Edited January 23, 2013 by IndiraLightfoot