How do you make isometric games more interesting?

[Failion]

The infinity engine games there were some cool minor cool things like in icewind dale 2 add explosive barrels the player can use to kill the approaching enemy or trapped walls that crush the player and his party. Besides the infinity engine games there aren't many 2D isometric tactical rpg games that I know of. There is the Japanese growlanser series I seen cool things like floors that collapse and the player has to get out of there or fail. Also there are missions where you pull levers to slow the enemies approach on the map.

 

It is 2012, I don't know how flexible the unity engine is but here is hoping to see more variety in the isometic map creating process.

[Sacred_Path]

I've stated in another thread that I'd like them to get rid of the Fog of War. Display all the map, but objects of interest (like monsters and items) should only be displayed once they get into your line of sight. Different characters could have bigger or smaller areas where they can perceive things, but generally bigger than in IE games. This could make those moments before you close into pitched melee more exciting, and give you more options (i.e. in BG2 you usually put down traps close to you, then started to pull enemies into them).

[mstark]

Possibly not exactly what this thread is about, but:

 

One of the most interesting things I'm looking forward to seeing, that the devs are experimenting with, is dynamic lighting on 2D imagery, which modern rendering techniques allows for. Eg. a torch can light up a 2D object from different sides, as if it was rendered in real time. That has the potential to make the game look incredible, if it's possible to pull it off without crippling system requirements.

 

For me, the most interesting bit is how absolutely beautiful 2D pre-rendered games tend to be, I'll take that over easily animated falling rocks in 3D any day

Edited December 18, 2012 by mstark

[PrimeJunta]

One of the most interesting things I'm looking forward to seeing, that the devs are experimenting with, is dynamic lighting on 2D imagery, which modern rendering techniques allows for. Eg. a torch can light up a 2D object from different sides, as if it was rendered in real time. That has the potential to make the game look incredible, if it's possible to pull it off without crippling system requirements.

 

I'm sure it's possible. I worked with a company that did 3D modeling software some, oh, 20 years ago or so, and they had ways to do this already then. Dunno exactly what the algorithm was, but it worked really nicely. It took a few seconds to render the image (at a high resolution too), then you could zip lights around it in real time. The hardware was state of the art for the time (Silicon Graphics), but your phone has more processing power in it than those did, never mind a computer.

[rjshae]

There's plenty the developers can do if they want to complicate it a little more:

• Direct transition from outdoors to indoors (rather than running through a load screen), as per DD.
  
• Treatment of line-of-sight FoW issues based upon 3D terrain topology.
  
• The use of terrain features for missile cover (barrels, walls, vegetation).
  
• Implement terrain effects for movement (per D&D 3.5e)
  
• Allow various means of traversing terrain obstacles (swim, jump, levitation, limited fly).
  
• Dynamical acoustical effects from terrain.
  
• Provide animation for all water features: waves, waterfalls, rapids, drifting leaves, fish, &c.
  
• More sophisticated day-night transition and weather effects.
  
• Animated structures: waterwheels, windmills, draw bridges, wagons, window shutters that shut at night, &c.
  

[Tamerlane]

I've stated in another thread that I'd like them to get rid of the Fog of War. Display all the map, but objects of interest (like monsters and items) should only be displayed once they get into your line of sight. Different characters could have bigger or smaller areas where they can perceive things, but generally bigger than in IE games. This could make those moments before you close into pitched melee more exciting, and give you more options (i.e. in BG2 you usually put down traps close to you, then started to pull enemies into them).

You'd still have fog of war in that case, just not the black **** that I don't think there's a common name for. I could definitely get behind that, though; as others have pointed out, if everything was covered in black and you had to get near it to reveal, there would be big chunks of the revealed screenshot that you would probably never see/would look terrible.

 

Also, I'd love it if ranged attacks were more than just hit/miss. Something more like Fallout, or the old Xcom games: if you miss your target, your projectile keeps going and maybe it hits someone standing behind them.

[Falkon Swiftblade]

It's interesting some folks dislike the fog of war, in some ways that was one of my fav things because I LOVE exploring. I don't think we necessarily need it, but if it's gone it kind of gives you hints of where to go or not go before you would know, spoiling the surprise or the ambush. I like the idea of in todays world playing on multiple planes or perspectives. Have a floor or cave that you fall down below. I want to see more areas with foreground and background elements in them like walking behind waterfalls and crossing bridges. Not specifically that I need to see the whole thing, but if I'm walking near a base of a mountain, or walking up a mountain I want to see the geography shift so I'm leaning forward as I walk up the path for example, or show the foreground of the cliff I'm walking across and possibly if I get too close to the foreground I might fall off. I didn't play D3, but I like the direction I saw for some of their set pieces so you would be walking across the bridge and little critters climbed up the sides chasing you as you went across the bridge. I like that sort of thing. I don't want the whole game to be birds eye view with no depth to it. I think that's the key to what I'd like to see, depth.

 

In addition I'd echo most of what rjshae said above, I want much better particle fx and weather fx, along with majorly improved animations. The excuses of things being too hard now a days is pretty lame. You can either motion capture animations or performances these days, the technology for lighting and the ability to render it in real time is extremely more powerful than it was 10-20 years ago. Even if they had to pre render stuff out, the game should have capability's rivaling the old IE games. Since they're creating their own world and rules they can do what ever they want.

[wanderon]

I like the fog of war myself - shows me where I've been and where I haven't so I am less likely to miss out on stuff especially if I have to save/quit before completing a given map and it's a couple days before I can get back to it.

[jivex5k]

I'm really looking forward a modern isometric game.

Granted, there are some like Hereos, Civ, and X-Com, but they are not hand drawn like this game will be IIRC.

[mstark]

Also, I'd love it if ranged attacks were more than just hit/miss. Something more like Fallout, or the old Xcom games: if you miss your target, your projectile keeps going and maybe it hits someone standing behind them.

Would be awesome if missiles visibly hits the ground, gets stuck in wood, and ricochets off of stone

[StarSword]

I kinda liked the fog of war implementation they used in Storm of Zehir's overworld whereby they ditched the black gunk in favor of basing object detection range on the active character's Spot and Listen skills.

[Pshaw]

I'm really looking forward a modern isometric game.

Granted, there are some like Hereos, Civ, and X-Com, but they are not hand drawn like this game will be IIRC.

 

Diablo 3 is probably the best example of a hand painted isometric game that is current. I think it's one of the best looking games to have been released in years. Even all the 3D objects are beautifully painted and integrated well into the background.

[TMTVL]

Good dialog. Visual design might be nice, but good dialog will more then make up for any kind of graphical letdown.

[Falkon Swiftblade]

speaking of dialog, I'd like to still be able to play the game while dialog is happening. Not in every single case, but more so than before. I enjoy storytelling but I would like to avoid walls of text where i'm just reading and starting and stopping all the time. It's a bit jarring to have to start stop start stop when it's not you in control of it. Even if it was a precut scene where your party continues walking in the background or your on a boat in the sea and they have waves moving up and down while you're on a boat. I hope they keep things interactive.

[Tsuga C]

There's plenty the developers can do if they want to complicate it a little more:

• Direct transition from outdoors to indoors (rather than running through a load screen), as per DD.
  
• Treatment of line-of-sight FoW issues based upon 3D terrain topology.
  
• The use of terrain features for missile cover (barrels, walls, vegetation).
  
• Implement terrain effects for movement (per D&D 3.5e)
  
• Allow various means of traversing terrain obstacles (swim, jump, levitation, limited fly).
  
• Dynamical acoustical effects from terrain.
  
• Provide animation for all water features: waves, waterfalls, rapids, drifting leaves, fish, &c.
  
• More sophisticated day-night transition and weather effects.
  
• Animated structures: waterwheels, windmills, draw bridges, wagons, window shutters that shut at night, &c.
  

 

The load screens don't bother me when I transition, but other than that I think you've pretty well nailed it. Of course, I'm not of the opinion that these are strictly necessary. They would be nice to have, but they're well down my list and out of essential territory.

[mstark]

speaking of dialog, I'd like to still be able to play the game while dialog is happening. Not in every single case, but more so than before. I enjoy storytelling but I would like to avoid walls of text where i'm just reading and starting and stopping all the time. It's a bit jarring to have to start stop start stop when it's not you in control of it. Even if it was a precut scene where your party continues walking in the background or your on a boat in the sea and they have waves moving up and down while you're on a boat. I hope they keep things interactive.

I am of the opposite opinion. I can understand some might not want dialogues to interrupt them without them having a say, but it made for some really good moments in BG/2. I'm all for dialogues taking you "out of the game" and into a reading environment.

 

I'd be very happy if commoners, who don't have anything to say, wouldn't bring up a dialogue window for their single sentence, generic, replies. That was just quite annoying in IE (jarring). I'd be happy for whatever generic things they have to say simply floats above their head for a bit if I click on them.

[AGX-17]

I'm really looking forward a modern isometric game.

Granted, there are some like Hereos, Civ, and X-Com, but they are not hand drawn like this game will be IIRC.

 

How are those games not "hand drawn"? Human modelers and animators had to make all the meshes and textures for those games, too. Robots didn't make them with their cold robot claws.

 

speaking of dialog, I'd like to still be able to play the game while dialog is happening. Not in every single case, but more so than before. I enjoy storytelling but I would like to avoid walls of text where i'm just reading and starting and stopping all the time. It's a bit jarring to have to start stop start stop when it's not you in control of it. Even if it was a precut scene where your party continues walking in the background or your on a boat in the sea and they have waves moving up and down while you're on a boat. I hope they keep things interactive.

 

Being forced into a conversation and keeping the world animated during the conversation are two different things. The whole world stopping in full view was a big complaint in Bethesda's past few games so they actually advertised characters still going about their business in the background during conversations.

 

Only problem is, if some NPC decides to force you into a conversation in combat, you're defenseless and can be killed while trapped in a dialogue menu.

Edited December 19, 2012 by AGX-17

[Falkon Swiftblade]

the way I would do them would be inside shops and have the npc work while he talks, or walk with you along a path in a city for example. Or stand and talk while you can run around and interact with objects. I also agree with the one liners having floating text. I never minded the mini cut scenes like in BG1 when the wizards apear and attack your uncle but sometimes it was a pain when you had 4 choices with multiple levels and the dialog tree got a lil tedious. I hope at the least they improve body language so if you respond angry it shows it, or maybe the character breaks a pot or something.

[Sedrefilos]

What I'd like to see off the game is not the fog of war but the black "unexplored" area around you. In IE games you have a say 5 spaces visibility range. That is just stupid! You are at an open area, say a field or a city square and you can't see what's happening 20 meters away from you?! :D

 

Fog of war is ok, cause fog of war is just line of sight.

[ShadowTiger]

I would like to see some detailed bonuses and penalties from terrain. If you look at Age of Wonders 2 they had a really neat system where you had a % chance of intercepting creatures, trees, rocks, cliffs, walls, etc if you didn't have a clear line of fire. The only way to be 100% sure you won't nail an ally in the back with a firebolt or a longbow is to move to one side or be directly behind the ally.

 

You could hide behind trees or houses with your melee units during an assault until they got into range.

 

I guess I don't really see 2D or isometric view points as a limitation, most of the games I enjoy have that visual style.

 

I think that King's Bounty: Armored Princess does a great job with interesting tactical combat, which like Age of Wonders is a strategy game with RPG mechanics.

 

Speaking of fog of war... I think stealth could be a really interesting thing to play with. Like being able to hide behind a pillar and get an attack of opportunity that interrupts an enemy as he runs by, that would be pretty cool. I think both enemies and the player characters should have to make a difficult choice between killing the enemy you can see quickly, or move cautiously to avoid the enemies that might be hiding behind the terrain.

Edited December 19, 2012 by ShadowTiger

[mstark]

I really liked the system with black for unexplored parts of the map (IMO, a basic functionality that should be in a top-down exploration RPG), and FoW for line of sight. Yes, it's annoying that this means you don't always get to see the entire artwork that the map makes up, and maybe there should be a way of "unlocking" maps to remove all black, impossible to reach, parts of it in order to see it in full once you've "completed" the area.

 

The black serves as an excellent reference point for where I've yet to go, I very much enjoyed arriving in a new area with a completely black map, and walking around to paint it out .

[wanderon]

I really liked the system with black for unexplored parts of the map (IMO, a basic functionality that should be in a top-down exploration RPG), and FoW for line of sight. Yes, it's annoying that this means you don't always get to see the entire artwork that the map makes up, and maybe there should be a way of "unlocking" maps to remove all black, impossible to reach, parts of it in order to see it in full once you've "completed" the area.

 

The black serves as an excellent reference point for where I've yet to go, I very much enjoyed arriving in a new area with a completely black map, and walking around to paint it out .

 

What would seem to be a simple solution to needing a way to "unlock" maps to remove all black might be to simply design the maps in such a way that every bit of black can be uncovered simply by exploring it completely - I can't think of more than a map or two in BG1 that didn't work this way and IWD 1 & 2 also for the most part.

[Lephys]

What would seem to be a simple solution to needing a way to "unlock" maps to remove all black might be to simply design the maps in such a way that every bit of black can be uncovered simply by exploring it completely - I can't think of more than a map or two in BG1 that didn't work this way and IWD 1 & 2 also for the most part.

 

That makes me think... a lot of times, the problem is that you have a static sight radius, but you're still uncovering the map as if it's all perfectly flat, 2D terrain. So, when you get to those areas of sloping cliffs and such, sometimes there's a big chunk of blackness where the cliff is 2-dimensionally represented. So, you end up (if you want to make sure you got everything on the map) skirting it in an attempt to figure out how to uncover the rest of that black, but to no avail.

 

On edges where this might be cause by a cliff rising up away from you (the top of which is off the accessible map area), you could simply have the non-accessable part be revealed when your sight radius gets close enough to it, just to let the player know that's definitely the edge. But, when you're up on higher parts, what if your sight range was extended farther onto lower-altitude areas? If you're at the top of a cliff, maybe you can see everything that's at the base (the black goes away, but there's still fog of war... you can't make out details, only general terrain and structures.)

 

This high-ground advantage could also, naturally, be applicable to combat tactics. But, it would at least get rid of those times when you reach the edge of a cliff, only to wonder what's at the bottom, shrug, and say "I dunno... I can only see like 10 feet out from the cliff, and apparently I can't see the base, even though we're only 30 feet up, and it's a clear day... Oh well. Let's trek around and see if we can't figure out what's down there."

 

I know it's come up in other threads, but I think scouting should definitely be more viable at longer range, instead of having to dance a line between combat aggro and horizontal sight radius. This could be worked into a class bonus for Rangers, even. Okay, I'm seriously stopping with the idea-arcs.

 

(I swear I was just trying to mention the altitude-affected-blackness bit!)

Edited December 21, 2012 by Lephys

[Hormalakh]

This is probably not going to happen because of the extremely high amount of artwork it would take, but I really liked Fallout1/2 use of close-ups of important NPCs that you could talk to (Gizmo, Harold, Sulik, Marcus, Tandi, etc). I thought it was a nice touch especially since they also had voice acting. It was a nice change of pace and being able to see the visual profile of some characters can raelly add a lot to the experience.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Lephys]

^ True story, . You got a more personal interaction with them. You can see see a lot more personality and tone in facial expressions and mannerisms, not to mention the audio from voice-acting.

 

I don't know that it'll ever be reasonably easy to do that with all the NPCs in the game (I know that's not what you're suggesting... it would just be amazing), but we can hope for, perhaps, a fun-size version, at least. Like the Fallout games.