Forton is a Joke!

[SophosTheWise]

Jesus, if I had known how EuroCentric Obsidian fans could be...

 

I know this isn't everyone, but I feel like part of this clamor by some people to remove the Asian influences is because a lot of people are just increasingly insecure about anything foreign; if anyone remembers those old threads about which languages to include... yeah. Really, really awful stuff was said there in the most nonchalant, matter-of-fact way.

 

Please, keep this conversation away from devolving into that. I'd like to at least maintain the veneer of sharing hobbies this hobby with non-skinheads.

 

Come on, dude. Aren't we all grown up? Haven't we all seen those countless The Office episodes?

 

Your point is absolutely preposterous. Because this does not have anything to do with eurocentrism. As one of the "no asian influences, please"-advocates in this thread, I feel obliged to explain that to you.

 

Probably every American in this world would call me a socialist or a commie, hell, even in my own country which has universal health care and insurances for unemployed persons, a country which has about 25% foreigners and even more naturalized citizen, many people would call me a commie. I have humanistic, internationalistic worldviews, I think every person has rights, even stateless people should have the right to stay and I support a political project which is supposed to give everyone an unconditional basic income, even If they're not working. I even support cultural relativism to a big extent.

 

People like you still haven't understood, that there is also something called positive racism (which is still s ****ing bad thing). We don't have to have a "minority program" or a "female quota" in higher offices. What we have to do is NOT TO PRETEND that we are the same or look the same, but to acknowledge that we are all humans with equal rights and that it doesn't matter how we look or what kind of background we have. We're humans and that's the only thing that counts. Including everything just for the sake of including is hilariously stupid.

 

I, for one, am not afraid of Asians. There's a Vietnamese girl working for my gaming magazine, one of my best friends lives in China and many of my other friends are japanophile to an extreme extent - I don't care where you're from, I don't care about your cultural background, I just care about the fact that we're humans.

 

Not to start another discussion, but eurocentrism itself is basically a eurocentrism.

 

But what it is about then? Easy. It's about creating a inherently logical and consistent world. The goal of western RPGs is, often, to depict something close to the European medieval ages. And there were no ninja monks there. It just breaks immersion for me, because it doesn't follow the structures we're familiar with. It just does not work for me. Why don't you flip perspectives? Imagine a martial arts RPG or a Samurai RPG in which you could play an early-renaissance-landsknecht. Absurd, isn't it?

[Amentep]

It just breaks immersion for me, because it doesn't follow the structures we're familiar with. It just does not work for me. Why don't you flip perspectives? Imagine a martial arts RPG or a Samurai RPG in which you could play an early-renaissance-landsknecht. Absurd, isn't it?

 

Surely in a fantasy world, familiar structures are pointless constructs? Whether a "landsknecht" would make sense in a "martial arts" or "samurai" RPG would really depend on the kind of world and history being created and presented wouldn't it?

 

Provided the setting supports and motivates the existance of someone who'd be a "landskenecht" (or fantasy equivalent) in the "samurai" world, then surely there is no internal inconsistency in the fantasy setting and the problem only lies in an external inconsistancy (namely that the "real world" doesn't support the real world "class" in the real world equivalent of the setting) perceived by the player and applied to the fantasy world?

[Monte Carlo]

Please don't use the word 'Immersion' it's forum shorthand for butt-hurt.

[Keyrock]

[Monte Carlo]

Forton memes FTW.

[CommonOddity]

 

On a more serious note, oerwinde's fumanchu is a neat touch. Even if a full fumanchu is considered a bit obnoxious by the designers, a pronounced soul patch would suit Forton well imho.

[Hormalakh]

I have chinese friends so I can't be racist.

 

Fixed it for you. Regardless of what you think you are, you still have prejudices and biases like everyone else in the world. This isn't a medieval simulator. Why don't you have issues with Sagani then? She's not "European." Whether people like it or not, the world will continue to be diverse and multiculturalism will continue to occur. Deal with it. To continue to think of our fantasy worlds as "white-only" worlds and to decry worlds that do not fit this model to be "immersion breaking" is just another way to be neo-racist.

 

Medieval Europe, which this game isn't, wasn't filled with only "white people." Renaissance Europe had plenty of mixing with Middle Eastern/Asian/African cultures, and diverse people lived in those locales. People of different colors traveled the world then, and they travel the world now.

 

----------------

 

 

In regards to Forton and his being a monk and how he looks, this argument really stems into how we see "monks" as a class. There was a thread several weeks ago where this was discussed and people came to all sorts of different conclusions. It was weird for most people to describe any class based solely on one narrow interpretation of the word monk. I think a lot of the disagreement with Forton still stems from that.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Hormalakh

[GhostofAnakin]

I for one, am disgusted that he is not wearing a shirt. Sigh, the over-sexualisation continues.

 

Men are always being sexualized in games. Damn sexist gaming industry.

Edited November 13, 2012 by GhostofAnakin

[Gfted1]

Im offended by his bare breasts. He was left shirtless in an obvious attempt at tittilating female players, and dont even get me started on how being shirtless like that will direct all blows to his sternum. I cant believe you guys are alright with him getting a busted sternum.

 

What can I say, I'm biased and only care about the health of women's sternums.

 

"Hey baby...I want you to have...a healthy sternum"

 

*slap*

 

Okay maybe that isn't working out so well.

 

This type of attitude breaks my immersion and verisimilitude. Everyone cares about the human woman but not a peep out of anyone when we have godlike races with exposed man glands and dwarves wearing fur miniskirts. Sickening, and I for one wont stand for it. Im going streaking through the quad and into the gymnasium, WHOSE WITH ME!?

[Hormalakh]

 

 

This type of attitude breaks my immersion and verisimilitude. Everyone cares about the human woman but not a peep out of anyone when we have godlike races with exposed man glands and dwarves wearing fur miniskirts. Sickening, and I for one wont stand for it. Im going streaking through the quad and into the gymnasium, WHOSE WITH ME!?

 

I'm with you! Let me go take off my fur miniskirt.

[jezz555]

Make him a young bald female monk if you want to create an original NPC companion but for the love of god take this old peasant away. Thank you.

 

Female monks are actually pretty commonplace, the one in the 3e phb(possibly the most iconic monk image from dnd) is young and female, she's not bald but w/e, furthermore the monks in diablo 3 are essentially exactly as you described.

 

I think there are a couple ways that this image could be more appealing to me. For one thing I would like it if he had a stronger looking face, because his body is mad buff, but his face is not similarly menacing. I would like to see more evidence of a monkish lifestyle, like a shaven head, meticulously drawn tattoos or patterned scars to represent self-discipline. While I think his clothing should be plain, I don't really like the whole-stitched together look of his pants (he's a monk not a hobo). And finally I've said this before on other threads, but I wouldn't mind if the monk was asian for once. The archetype of a monk is based more on shaolin monks than anything else, but I think they are rarely depicted as such because it seems too obvious. Ironically as a result asian monks are never really done, and you just end up with a bunch of kung-fu white guys.

 

EDIT: To be clear, Chinese not Japanese. And I understand the arguments against it, but I think it's only ridiculous when monks are asian inspired but not asian, I would say just have him be a traveler from a far away land, or better yet an exile. European warrior monks might be cool, but they would be more like paladins/fighter/clerics than actual D&D monks imo.

 

 

I for one, am disgusted that he is not wearing a shirt. Sigh, the over-sexualisation continues.

 

Assuming this is serious...what exactly is it about Forton that is sexy to you...?

Edited November 13, 2012 by jezz555

[Hormalakh]

Female monks are actually pretty commonplace, the one in the 3e phb(possibly the most iconic monk image from dnd) is young and female, she's not bald but w/e, furthermore the monks in diablo 3 are essentially exactly as you described.

 

I think there are a couple ways that this image could be more appealing to me. For one thing I would like it if he had a stronger looking face, because his body is mad buff, but his face is not similarly menacing. I would like to see more evidence of a monkish lifestyle, like a shaven head, meticulously drawn tattoos or patterned scars to represent self-discipline. While I think his clothing should be plain, I don't really like the whole-stitched together look of his pants (he's a monk not a hobo). And finally I've said this before on other threads, but I wouldn't mind if the monk was asian for once. The archetype of a monk is based more on shaolin monks than anything else, but I think they are rarely depicted as such because it seems too obvious. Ironically as a result asian monks are never really done, and you just end up with a bunch of kung-fu white guys.

 

The more I think about it, the more I start to hate the fact that monks exist as a class in this game.

[jezz555]

Female monks are actually pretty commonplace, the one in the 3e phb(possibly the most iconic monk image from dnd) is young and female, she's not bald but w/e, furthermore the monks in diablo 3 are essentially exactly as you described.

 

I think there are a couple ways that this image could be more appealing to me. For one thing I would like it if he had a stronger looking face, because his body is mad buff, but his face is not similarly menacing. I would like to see more evidence of a monkish lifestyle, like a shaven head, meticulously drawn tattoos or patterned scars to represent self-discipline. While I think his clothing should be plain, I don't really like the whole-stitched together look of his pants (he's a monk not a hobo). And finally I've said this before on other threads, but I wouldn't mind if the monk was asian for once. The archetype of a monk is based more on shaolin monks than anything else, but I think they are rarely depicted as such because it seems too obvious. Ironically as a result asian monks are never really done, and you just end up with a bunch of kung-fu white guys.

 

The more I think about it, the more I start to hate the fact that monks exist as a class in this game.

 

really? why?

[Jorian Drake]

Not sure if serious....

pretty sure its basic trolling in action

[Amentep]

Im offended by his bare breasts. He was left shirtless in an obvious attempt at tittilating female players, and dont even get me started on how being shirtless like that will direct all blows to his sternum. I cant believe you guys are alright with him getting a busted sternum.

 

What can I say, I'm biased and only care about the health of women's sternums.

 

"Hey baby...I want you to have...a healthy sternum"

 

*slap*

 

Okay maybe that isn't working out so well.

 

This type of attitude breaks my immersion and verisimilitude.

 

It bent my wookie too.

 

Everyone cares about the human woman

 

I'm for the inhuman woman if she's sexy.

 

but not a peep out of anyone when we have godlike races with exposed man glands and dwarves wearing fur miniskirts.

 

Peep!

 

Sickening, and I for one wont stand for it. Im going streaking through the quad and into the gymnasium,

 

Your intimidation tactics, slinging your schlong in the face of nay-sayers, won't work on me.

 

No really, it won't work, don't try it.

 

WHOSE WITH ME!?

 

Whose indeed.

[Hormalakh]

The more I think about it, the more I start to hate the fact that monks exist as a class in this game.

 

really? why?

 

Well it really depends on how we define the word class. What dos class really mean? Is it a combat style? A set of skills put together? A way of life? No other class is as narrowly described as the monk. It is the only one that is described both as a cultural phenomenon, a specific combat style, and a way of life. "Tibetan monks" that defend their homes using kung-fu is not a class. If we look at it from the lens of combat style, the class truly being described is a brawler/fighter. Monks are chosen as a class because they fight without weapons and use only "martial arts." Rogues aren't described this way (fights with daggers?), neither are rangers (fights with bows?), barbarians (fights with ... axes?) How is that any different than a boxer, or other type of martial artist? Why not just call them brawlers?

 

The "monk class" also describes a certain personality that no other class truly does; that of an ascetic. Fighters aren't defined by their personalities. Rogues might be thieves, but not always. Etc, etc.

 

And classes being defined as skill sets: barbarians rage, fighters are combat oriented, rogues mechaincally oriented, wizards magically oriented. What about monks? They're kung-fu oriented? Why not call them brawlers then?

 

It's too awkward of a distinction between the monk and any of the other classes. We all quickly "get" what each class is and can think of a variety of ways to play those classes. With a variety of different personalities and motivations. Monks, though. It's hard to distinguish them and articulate them other than by considering them as a stereotypical generalization. They aren't just a class. Monks are the product of a philosophy fit into a combat style within a specific culture. No other class really is.

 

It's difficult to articulate really. I'd have to sit and define class first. Then sketch out each class to fit within this definition and see how I can distinguish them. Then I would have to sit and think about monks as they fit within this class. From a distance, it just seems that monks are the most narrowly defined class, whereas other classes can play to a wider audience. It's really difficult to articulate. I just hope the devs think these distinctions through well enough and utilize one definition for the word "class" and define their classes by distinguishing between them through that lens.

 

D&D, because it is a game that has evolved through each new edition has had its definitions diluted, corrupted and sometimes made backward-incompatible, has made convoluted descriptions that are difficult to understand. When starting a completely new IP and gameworld, we do not have to work with these adulterated definitions. We should be clear about what we mean.

 

Edit: clarity

Edited November 13, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Jorian Drake]

I would say the monk that is most known in RPG can be described as " martial artist philosopher"

[VixRaine]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that during one of the updates someone (Chris Avellone?) was talking about Forton specifically, and how he's virtually substance-abused everything known to man (and still does?)

 

I mean, being monk puts you in shape, it's going to do that. But if you are that drugged out that consistently, wouldn't that explain a lot of the ways his body differs from our normal preconceptions. (Especially considering harder drugs? We are talking Hippy-freelove kinda drug user, we are talking like heroin and cocaine for years kinda drug user.)

 

I for one think that I would prefer Obsidian to give me this unique character as opposed to some homogeneous design based upon the stereotypes of a few people without enough imagination to play in a world where the rules and the histories are different from out own.

Edited November 13, 2012 by VixRaine

[Jorian Drake]

I don't have an issue with the original concept of the char, but I do hope we get the ability to help him get out of thedrug addiction or somesuch (or the opposite, and get him killed somehow, maybe an overdose)

[Gfted1]

I just hope we can buy the poor bastard a shirt. It gets cold while spelunking 15 level mega dungeons and imagine how bad it must hurt to take an arrow to the nipple!

[Hormalakh]

I would say the monk that is most known in RPG can be described as " martial artist philosopher"

 

So then his skills should include persuasion.

 

What do you mean when you say "martial artist?" Are you talking about kung fu, judo, tae kwan do, etc. Why not boxing, capoiera, sambo, systema (russian martial arts), pankration (Greek martial arts), krav maga, wrestling, and a whole lot of other martial art types? Fencing is considered a martial art. Why only martial arts as they are narrowly known from a cultural perspective? You see when we think of "kung fu" or "karate" as THE martial art, we have been biased to this way of thinking due to the hollywood-ization of these martial arts. If all the martial arts that I described are possible styles for our "monk" then why not call him a brawler? Why put your class in a certain fighting pose that screams "Chinese martial arts!" when speaking about martial arts? We have already culturally-constrained our class to that of "chinese martial arts."

 

This bothers me. It doesn't fit the prototypical definition of a class. Culturally constraining a class might be fine when we haven't discussed subtypes or cultures of a race (as D&D didn't when it first came out). But when the game itself specifically has cultures and subtypes as a mechanic in the game, we cannot define all "monk martial arts" as narrowly as we have.

 

If you want to call him a martial artist philosopher, I'm fine with that. But the devs and everyone else should know that our world contains hundreds of different martial arts, all highly influenced by their cultures. As long as they realize this and keep this in mind, and multiple martial arts styles are used, all dependent upon the "monk's" cultural background, I don't have a problem with it. although, then I would wonder why we wouldn't call him a brawler instead and even limit our classes less because we can have philosopher brawlers and non-philosopher brawlers.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Jorian Drake]

 

heh, sometimes I find it amusing when a moderator is trolling

[Gfted1]

 

heh, sometimes I find it amusing when a moderator is trolling

 

Trolling? Your words cut me good sir. Everything I have said is the same reasoned and well thought out arguments that my follwow posters posit when discussing these important matters. They rallied and whined to the high heavens regarding the human female and I expect no less for my dwarvish and godtouched brethren. To do less makes you a filthy speciesist.

[Hormalakh]

same reasoned and well thought out arguments that my follwow posters posit when discussing these important matters

 

Not sure if ...

[jivex5k]

LOL @ Racism