Leather "armor"

[Aborell]

OKay, so we invariably see in your average RPG sets of leather armor, of varying types. Thing is, leather armor is actually less than useless. I've got a degree in the classics and have studied to a reasonable degree ancient and (somewhat) medieval warfare, so I'm not just talking out of my ass (though I usually am to be honest).

 

It's like this: Leather armor utterly fails at stopping blows, whether cutting, blunt &c in nature. It's barely better than a thick sweater. You can demonstrate this at home with a pair of thick leather shoes. Put them on and then hit your foot with a hearty blow from a sharp object. Hope you have health insurance! Worse, besides being worthless as protection, leather 'armor' in fact impedes movement, making it--as I said--less than worthless.

 

Now, here's how the idea of leather armor first came about. It's all Trajan's fault. Or rather, the Column of Trajan (look it up). The artisans who created the column used special plaster to render the scale armor of the Roman soldiers on the column, but over the years the plaster wore down, leaving a smooth looking surface that archaeologists for a long time assumed meant that the soldiers were wearing leather. Nah! Romans were no warfare dummies, least of all Trajan, and wore either mail (early) or scale (later) armor. Leather armor is literally a fabrication, one made popular by Hollywood because it's easy to portray.

 

Anyway, that's my history nerd post of the day, I hope there isn't leather armor in P:E. ATTN JOSH SAWYER I know you get off on this sort of thing too,

[BBMorti]

Leather protects against heat, like a flame spell, better than a sweater, I would imagine.

 

I also think I would prefer, say, a suitcase made of leather, as opposed to one made of wool =P Durability feels like it could be a reason for that.

[Nonek]

Erm wouldn't the old Buff coat be gaining popularity around this time period?

[Grand_Commander13]

While I can find a general consensus that leather armor wasn't particularly popular during any time around the middle ages, hardened leather would be at least as effective as the padded armors against slashes; you wouldn't argue against padded armors (a very well-documented armor type) by saying to put on a down jacket and stab yourself with a kitchen knife, would you?

[jezz555]

It is the weakest of armors to be fair, and leather used for armor would probably be as thick and hardened as possible and probably padded and reinforced, so the boot comparison isn't really valid. Still though, point taken, leather armor is dumb.

[Hellfell]

Boiled leather armor provided Real yet limited protection from slashes (thrusts went right through though). It is completely reasonable to put it into a fantasy game or movie.

 

(magic didn't exist, I hope there will be no magic in PE)

Edited November 4, 2012 by Hellfell

[AGX-17]

OKay, so we invariably see in your average RPG sets of leather armor, of varying types. Thing is, leather armor is actually less than useless. I've got a degree in the classics and have studied to a reasonable degree ancient and (somewhat) medieval warfare, so I'm not just talking out of my ass (though I usually am to be honest).

 

It's like this: Leather armor utterly fails at stopping blows, whether cutting, blunt &c in nature. It's barely better than a thick sweater. You can demonstrate this at home with a pair of thick leather shoes. Put them on and then hit your foot with a hearty blow from a sharp object. Hope you have health insurance! Worse, besides being worthless as protection, leather 'armor' in fact impedes movement, making it--as I said--less than worthless.

 

Now, here's how the idea of leather armor first came about. It's all Trajan's fault. Or rather, the Column of Trajan (look it up). The artisans who created the column used special plaster to render the scale armor of the Roman soldiers on the column, but over the years the plaster wore down, leaving a smooth looking surface that archaeologists for a long time assumed meant that the soldiers were wearing leather. Nah! Romans were no warfare dummies, least of all Trajan, and wore either mail (early) or scale (later) armor. Leather armor is literally a fabrication, one made popular by Hollywood because it's easy to portray.

 

Anyway, that's my history nerd post of the day, I hope there isn't leather armor in P:E. ATTN JOSH SAWYER I know you get off on this sort of thing too,

 

HEY, you leave Trajan out of this. Erosion and human error are the issue here.

 

But the more pressing matter is that this is a fantasy game with fantasy characters, some of whom are going to be intended as swift and agile. But a significant number of players aren't going to be happy when the dice roll and that swift/agile character suffers an immediate mortal wound due to lack of heavy steel plate. Sawyer's already said on Formspring (in response to someone's complaints about New Vegas not being realistic enough,) that a game stops being fun when there's too much realism. It's not exactly a big stretch to make up an animal whose hide is tough enough to act as viable armor, this being fantasy and all.

 

 

Leather protects against heat, like a flame spell, better than a sweater, I would imagine.

 

I also think I would prefer, say, a suitcase made of leather, as opposed to one made of wool =P Durability feels like it could be a reason for that.

 

Leather does not protect against heat, it makes you even hotter in the heat. This is the water-impermeable skin flayed from an animal's body we're talking about here. Yes, it would provide limited-duration protection from a not-extreme direct heat source (put on a leather glove, slap that hand on an oven burner for a few minutes and you'd get to tell me about your new burn scars,) but wearing a leather jacket in the desert? Have fun dying of dehydration that much faster.

[BBMorti]

OKay, so we invariably see in your average RPG sets of leather armor, of varying types. Thing is, leather armor is actually less than useless. I've got a degree in the classics and have studied to a reasonable degree ancient and (somewhat) medieval warfare, so I'm not just talking out of my ass (though I usually am to be honest).

 

It's like this: Leather armor utterly fails at stopping blows, whether cutting, blunt &c in nature. It's barely better than a thick sweater. You can demonstrate this at home with a pair of thick leather shoes. Put them on and then hit your foot with a hearty blow from a sharp object. Hope you have health insurance! Worse, besides being worthless as protection, leather 'armor' in fact impedes movement, making it--as I said--less than worthless.

 

Now, here's how the idea of leather armor first came about. It's all Trajan's fault. Or rather, the Column of Trajan (look it up). The artisans who created the column used special plaster to render the scale armor of the Roman soldiers on the column, but over the years the plaster wore down, leaving a smooth looking surface that archaeologists for a long time assumed meant that the soldiers were wearing leather. Nah! Romans were no warfare dummies, least of all Trajan, and wore either mail (early) or scale (later) armor. Leather armor is literally a fabrication, one made popular by Hollywood because it's easy to portray.

 

Anyway, that's my history nerd post of the day, I hope there isn't leather armor in P:E. ATTN JOSH SAWYER I know you get off on this sort of thing too,

 

HEY, you leave Trajan out of this. Erosion and human error are the issue here.

 

But the more pressing matter is that this is a fantasy game with fantasy characters, some of whom are going to be intended as swift and agile. But a significant number of players aren't going to be happy when the dice roll and that swift/agile character suffers an immediate mortal wound due to lack of heavy steel plate. Sawyer's already said on Formspring (in response to someone's complaints about New Vegas not being realistic enough,) that a game stops being fun when there's too much realism. It's not exactly a big stretch to make up an animal whose hide is tough enough to act as viable armor, this being fantasy and all.

 

Leather protects against heat, like a flame spell, better than a sweater, I would imagine.

 

I also think I would prefer, say, a suitcase made of leather, as opposed to one made of wool =P Durability feels like it could be a reason for that.

 

Leather does not protect against heat, it makes you even hotter in the heat. This is the water-impermeable skin flayed from an animal's body we're talking about here. Yes, it would provide limited-duration protection from a not-extreme direct heat source (put on a leather glove, slap that hand on an oven burner for a few minutes and you'd get to tell me about your new burn scars,) but wearing a leather jacket in the desert? Have fun dying of dehydration that much faster.

*Wooooosh*

 

Get back to me when you come across that mage who casts a 10 minute flaming hands on you.

[mcmanusaur]

If you're claiming that leather armor doesn't exist, what do you call this?

[PsychoBlonde]

I don't know about leather "armor", but 17th-century cavalry usually wore buff coats made out of leather because many of them could not afford a cuirass. Heck, even modern motorcyclists wear leather to protect their legs. And shoes do prevent some damage, it's why we WEAR them. Try kicking a chair leg some time in bare feet. You're likely to break your toes. With shoes on, it barely even hurts. I wear heavy leather gloves to protect my hands when I'm doing yard work.

 

There are a lot more dangers in combat and travel than somebody hitting you directly. Even minor cuts can become dangerously infected (or, worse, transmit tetanus), and in an age with no antibiotics, this is not a minor problem. Wearing heavier clothing when you're going to be traveling through the wilderness can be a good idea just to avoid various scratches.

 

It also appears that most leather armor is made from cuir boulli that is laid down in plates to make a form of scale or lamellar armor--it is much like a piece of wood in durability in its final form. If all you studied was ancient history, it's not surprising you didn't run across it--this type of armor was used predominately in the 14th through 16th centuries, not during the Roman Empire.

[John Lemon]

OKay, so we invariably see in your average RPG sets of leather armor, of varying types. Thing is, leather armor is actually less than useless. I've got a degree in the classics and have studied to a reasonable degree ancient and (somewhat) medieval warfare, so I'm not just talking out of my ass (though I usually am to be honest).

 

It's like this: Leather armor utterly fails at stopping blows, whether cutting, blunt &c in nature. It's barely better than a thick sweater. You can demonstrate this at home with a pair of thick leather shoes. Put them on and then hit your foot with a hearty blow from a sharp object. Hope you have health insurance! Worse, besides being worthless as protection, leather 'armor' in fact impedes movement, making it--as I said--less than worthless.

 

Now, here's how the idea of leather armor first came about. It's all Trajan's fault. Or rather, the Column of Trajan (look it up). The artisans who created the column used special plaster to render the scale armor of the Roman soldiers on the column, but over the years the plaster wore down, leaving a smooth looking surface that archaeologists for a long time assumed meant that the soldiers were wearing leather. Nah! Romans were no warfare dummies, least of all Trajan, and wore either mail (early) or scale (later) armor. Leather armor is literally a fabrication, one made popular by Hollywood because it's easy to portray.

 

Anyway, that's my history nerd post of the day, I hope there isn't leather armor in P:E. ATTN JOSH SAWYER I know you get off on this sort of thing too,

Yeah no, you're wrong.

See:

Cuir Bouilli rerebrace, British museum, London (http://www.flickr.co...ami/6840030630/)

The hero, after donning his ‘hauberc’ puts on his ‘Cauces de fier [mail chausses], cuirie et cote | A armer’.

(Buffum 1928: ll. 2582 and 2585–86.)

Source: http://dawnofchivalr...aces.com/Cuirie

Maciejowski bible image (http://www.tforum.in...&attach_id=8345)

Source: http://www.tforum.in...=20#entry163969

[Merlkir]

Sweeping statements like "all swords were razor sharp", or in your case "leather armor didn't exist" are bound to be at least partially wrong.

 

The problem as I see it - leather armor is much much more prevalent in fiction than it ever was in reality.

 

It's important to distinguish various materials like tanned leather and boiled leather/rawhide as well as methods of construction.

 

For instance, a couple of points from the top of my head:

 

1) Rawhide is different to tanned leather. It's indeed very very tough, could certainly stop a slash and it's rigid, so it might provide some protection against blunt trauma as well. The problem is it soaks water, rots and falls apart rather quickly. (although I've read that "smoking it" regularly helps with that issue)

So boiled rawhide might be an armor choice for warm climate areas and people with easy access to animal hide rather than metal or (very expensive) linen for padded jacks.

 

2) the so called "linothorax" - believed to be armour made of glued layers of linen by the Greeks and other ancient cultures, was probaly made of leather. There is an absolutely monstrous thread about it on the Roman Army talk, for anyone wishing to dispute this claim. I'd rather you argued with the experts there than with me.

The fact is - there is a single mention of linen armor in Greek texts, it talks about very specific people (not the greeks) and it sounds more like a weird padded coat than the Greek armour.

There are also no finds of actual Greek linen armour, as one would expect. Tests have shown such armor would be surprisingly effective, so for a while everyone was happy with this hypothesis.

The problem is - enough linen to make such armour at the time would be too expensive to make it viable. In fact, the same thing can be done with leather, which is equally effective and much much cheaper. The whitish colour of armour in depictions can probably be attributed to tanning of the leather rather than it being linen.

 

So - don't imagine leather armor to be like your tanned leather jacket. Imagine either tough-as-hell (but brittle and difficult to maintain) rawhide, or many layers of leather glued together.

[Alexjh]

I don't quite see why this is a real issue, at the most basic level because this is a fantasy game and therefore, while some real world grounding is a good idea, we don't have to go for complete accuracy. As already mentioned, while it's not going to provide any great deal of protection, say, motorcycle leathers still protect you more than not wearing them, which is reflected in their low ranking they always have, which would be in D&D equivocal to someone who was slightly but not notably dexterous, which is not unreasonable.

 

If it doesn't end up in the game I'm not too fussed, but it seems a minor artistic choice given the amount of talk on the subject.

[HansKrSG]

I see many good posts here, and most seem to agree to the main point, that leather armor wasn't as common as fantasy literature/games would have you believe, but not unheard of.

Tanned Leather was a bitch to make in the old days, you used feces and piss to make it, and it took a lot of time before it was ready, so I am sure padded armor was an easier choice of armor, if you couldn't afford plate/chain/scale.

[Heresiarch]

Well, if you claim that leather armor is useless you've never been stabbed with a knife, while wearing a leather jacket. Trust me, it can make all the difference between ruining your clothes and ending up with a blade in your guts. Not every blow in combat is a dagger or a spear thrust delivered squarely into your chest.

 

As for the usage of leather armor (that is armor made exclusively of leather) Greeks made extensive usage of leather armor and also covered their shields with layers of hide. Byzantine Clibanarii also used lamellar armor made of leather scales, as did Japanese warriors, so did Vikings. I suppose if it were not effective some of them would have already raised the issue on the forums, althings or whatever.

[AGX-17]

*Wooooosh*

 

Get back to me when you come across that mage who casts a 10 minute flaming hands on you.

 

Do you even know what you're talking about? Leather will burn if left in an open flame. And it will burn even faster if exposed to higher temperatures than a standard wood-burning fire.

 

 

I don't know about leather "armor", but 17th-century cavalry usually wore buff coats made out of leather because many of them could not afford a cuirass. Heck, even modern motorcyclists wear leather to protect their legs. And shoes do prevent some damage, it's why we WEAR them. Try kicking a chair leg some time in bare feet. You're likely to break your toes. With shoes on, it barely even hurts. I wear heavy leather gloves to protect my hands when I'm doing yard work.

 

There are a lot more dangers in combat and travel than somebody hitting you directly. Even minor cuts can become dangerously infected (or, worse, transmit tetanus), and in an age with no antibiotics, this is not a minor problem. Wearing heavier clothing when you're going to be traveling through the wilderness can be a good idea just to avoid various scratches.

 

It also appears that most leather armor is made from cuir boulli that is laid down in plates to make a form of scale or lamellar armor--it is much like a piece of wood in durability in its final form. If all you studied was ancient history, it's not surprising you didn't run across it--this type of armor was used predominately in the 14th through 16th centuries, not during the Roman Empire.

 

What you're describing is protection from friction not protection from, say, being stabbed. Or battleaxed.

[Gallenger]

I can attest that leather, if properly treated, is highly effective against heat. Having worked in a foundry, I would know - being as 90% of the gear we wore to protect ourselves from the heat of the cupola was made out of thick treated leather :D (the other 10% would be special insulative padding and the metal helmet of course lol). I also saw somebody get molten metal spilled on them, and yes, they were badly burned, but the leather held up surprisingly well.

 

When we say "leather armor" you're typically talking about leather with some form of padding behind it, and has been processed to be quite hard. It's certainly better than wearing just your clothes - otherwise people would have worn just their clothes and it's shown basically without exception that people tried to provide themselves with some kind of armor - even if it was just padding - if they had that available to them.

 

Leather armor was pretty popular in the Slavic nations - and was used a lot for training purposes especially - although the richest of fancy pants types would get themselves in metal armor of some kind, even if it was just leather with a metal plate stuck in it somewhere. The main issue, for history anyways, is that leather armor will decay much more rapidly so we don't really have too many functional examples of what leather armor would have looked like or been capable of. Futhermore, only the fanciest of fancy pants would have left wills and stories so we don't really have a great idea of what the lesser folks ran around in.

Edited November 4, 2012 by Gallenger

[PsychoBlonde]

 

What you're describing is protection from friction not protection from, say, being stabbed. Or battleaxed.

 

You clearly have never put out your hand to save yourself from falling and grabbed a mature rose cane by accident. Oh, and biker leathers will protect you a fair bit from having all your skin ripped off when you lay your bike down. That's not trivial damage.

 

Leather gloves and chaps are also made out of soft leather, not leather that's been boiled hard and shaped. They make helmets out of that stuff.

 

You are basically spouting a version of "plastic motorcycle helmets could NEVER protect you see if you put saran wrap over your arm it totally has no benefit". Pft.

[Osvir]

I would like armor to be more like "adding layers" than "finding a new armor". I think that could fit P:E very well but it would be a more time consuming process to create (maybe?).

[Shadenuat]

What you're looking for is a sort of leather which was used to made midsoles. It's probably hard to find today because they don't make midsoles from natural leather anymore, but maybe still used somewhere for saddles or maybe some of parts of them. It's hard as hell and very light, and I can easely believe that it was used to make lamellar armour, at least. Of course, I'd prefer steel myself, but if I would be a warrior from a culture where you could get your hands on a lot of good thick leather, but low on metal, I'd probably at least try make the best out of leather first.

[Jarmo]

It's not a matter of whether a leather glove will render you invulnerable to flames and sword strikes.

It's a matter of if you'd rather put your hand in flame wearing or not wearing the said glove.

 

Something to the tune of leather coat would give minimal protection,

enough to deflect a minor scratch or to turn a cut into one. Not good as armor goes, but better than nothing.

 

Boiled leather, used in shaped armor (breastplates) and scale and lamellar were also made of it.

Not as good as ones made of metal, not even close, but again, better than nothing and better than padded armor or a leather coat

 

The basic reason to use leather armor would be cost, much cheaper than steel or bronze.

Leather clothing on the other hand, is also pretty comfortable, especially if compared to something like padded armor.

[FlintlockJazz]

Leather was used as armour, but not very much in Europe and it was less protective than padded cloth armours like gambesons and the like even in the countries were it was used extensively. It was used primarily in the East where animals with thick enough hide to make it worthwhile lived, in Europe the expense of making leather armour from the animals we had available (remember, cows and sheep and other domesticated animals back then were smaller due to the lack of breeding techniques, hormone enhancements and even basic nutrition) would require so many hides to be effective it would actually cost more than a full suit of mail for less protection. Honestly, I don't know why people wouldn't like to see a game where padded cloth armours are more prevalent and take the place of leather armours, since the look and feel of the game would be quite different, plus when you actually see what padded cloth looks like it's actually rather awesome:

 

[Jarmo]

I'm not an expert on padded armor at all, but from the picture I'd hazard a guess they were mostly used in areas with cooler climate? Also, don't know the technique used, but I remember from somewhere you couldn't wash them (or something bad) so they'd be pretty much full of fleas and thingies soon enough. And I seem to remember it was particularly bad against piercing damage, arrows and such.

Not well liked by the users but cheap enough.

 

 

As to leather and cost. I distinctly remember hearing or reading East Rome switched to boiled leather armor at some point, when they couldn't afford chain (or lamellar) anymore. Might have been a temporary thing. Might have something to do with there being a lot more horses about in the eastern areas. And the price of metal.. was pretty darn high at some points in history.

Edited November 4, 2012 by Jarmo

[FlintlockJazz]

The use of leather in the Roman Empire is hotly contested between experts, there isn't much evidence either way and cost is unlikely to be a factor due to the cost of leather, in most cases if you couldn't afford metal armour you went without at all.

 

As to you hazarding a guess that padded armour was only used in colder climes, you know what they say about assumption, and hazarding a guess is what the Victorian historians did and that created all the misconceptions we currently have to deal with today. Layered textiles as armour was used throughout the world in many different climes, including places like Eqypt. A jack, made out of quilted cloth in layers, and sallet were seen as the equipment of a well equipped footsoldier and appealed to many, and according to writers of the time the soldiers of the Duke of Gloucester in 1483 were equipped with them and were described as "comfortable tunics...stuffed with tow...They say that the softer the tunics the better do they withstand the blows of arrows and swords, and besides that in summer they are lighter and in winter more serviceable than iron". Lords would spend a lot of money equipping their soldiers with this armour, it was indeed useful, and were not disliked by their wearers at all.

[Osvir]

Just popping in to ask what people in here think about piecemeal armor.

 

How would Leather Armor fit into a "piecemeal" (e.g, wearing leather armor under plate armor) system in P:E?