Of Magic and Muskets...

[Solviulnir the Soulbinder]

Taking into consideration the fact that guns in PE will be of the wheellock type I wonder if it will be possible for the gunpowder to become damp in the rainy weather rendering the firearm useless. Or whether certain magic spells (like fireball or lightning) would have a random chance of igniting said gunpowder, making the guns discharge accidentally. That would give mages another means of defence (albeit not 100% effective) against firearms aside from their body armour. Arcane Veil spell, from what I gather, is not very effective against fast moving projectiles.

 

Just a thought. I'm not sure though whether this types of guns where loaded just prior to the shooting or were they carried loaded and ready to fire.

[Silentsigil]

To the berserk reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6tz_von_Berlichingen

 

"He had a mechanical prosthetic iron replacement made, which is today on display at the Jagsthausen Castle. This prosthetic hand was ahead of its time, being capable of holding objects from a sword to a feather pen. "

ahahaha. Real-life badassery.

 

To the wizard/gun references:

 

I definitely think that there would be stodgy old mages against this. I also think that as soon as the opportunity arose, they would enchant the living poop out of a gun to get rid of their oldest rival. I like the points made about military service and weaponry. It makes sense as an anti-mage arsenal and gives us a character type... an anti-mage sniper/assassin. I like the idea, especially since the guns aren't going to be as developed. If something goes wrong (and it will; backfire, damp powder) this guy has to have other tricks up his sleeve in order to finish off his target.

 

How they treat wizarding folk is going to have drastic effects on pretty much everything that is enchanted. If there are hedge wizards and such that sell glowing trinkets and fake divinations, and 'official' type ones in cities (perhaps even a guild), and then the irascible old crazy bunch that live in towers, which group is going to have the real power?

 

If the city-bound ones claim to have magical juice and really don't, then the only effective source would be the crazy dodgers out in the sticks. If this was the case, then the total amount of magical junk in the world would be pretty low.

 

I could see the politician type wizards producing the ammo types we talked about eariler, though. Something like a powder, sealant, or slightly enhanced 'bullets'.

[Osvir]

Obviously Wizards would have been Wizards before guns came into the picture. Unless guns are the "development of the century!" and we are playing in an Era where guns is a revolution (meaning that it is very very rare to find a gun). Otherwise if there are plenty of guns (which I feel that there is going to be), what did the Wizard Association feel about guns appearing in the world as a benchmark in history?

 

Also at real-life iron arm, badass :D thanks

[Atreides]

Them fire mages gotta enhance their fireballs with gunpowder yo

[jezz555]

Sorry for the image size but I liked this soooo much I had to post it.

Those are sweet. I'd love to dual-wield those.

 

I'd dual wield that, I'd dual wield the heck out of it.

[Hormalakh]

A very cool website that I found posts real weapons that look cool. One of them that I saw was called a "gun katar."

 

I think my mage would definitely enchant this.

 

 

http://www.collector...g01/Lot-101.htm

 

 

Another cool one I found here: The tanegashima (Onimusha uses this name for another enchanted weapon in that game too). This is a real weapon.

 

Edited November 7, 2012 by Hormalakh

[J.E. Sawyer]

i dunno, i don't like the idea of guns

i like crossbows better

Both will be available!

[NerdBoner]

as a soon to be 'Murican statesian (51st state) and the fact that my people are hot blooded and quick to anger; I fully support firearms for everyone in PE!

 

If i can I'd like to have a Cipher who dual wields a custom set of pistols in his journey for dominance...

 

my plan? shoot the hell out of smugly superior mages, then mind rape them into oblivion.

[LadyCrimson]

A very cool website that I found posts real weapons that look cool. One of them that I saw was called a "gun katar."

That's so ludicrous and ridiculous! .... it's perfect! I can see something like that being really fun in a game.

Altho it's probably more suited to a game outside of P.E.

[jezz555]

as a soon to be 'Murican statesian (51st state)

 

so...mexico...or canada?

[Chilloutman]

A very cool website that I found posts real weapons that look cool. One of them that I saw was called a "gun katar."

 

I think my mage would definitely enchant this.

 

 

http://www.collector...g01/Lot-101.htm

 

 

Another cool one I found here: The tanegashima (Onimusha uses this name for another enchanted weapon in that game too). This is a real weapon.

 

 

These two are relly cool. Even if I dont like guns in fantasy with these I can live

[.Leif.]

I really hope my Swashbuckler-fighter can dual-wield a cutlass and a pistol. What else would a proper bastard use after throwing a bomb at his clueless foes? Enchanting your Rifle should be more or less the same as enchanting your battle-axe. I just hope they come up with a more clever way to announce the weapon's power other than '+4 Blunderbuss of Bleeding'. Imbuing your bullets/buckshot with magic would also allow for your shooter to use the right ammo for the right job.

[Monte Carlo]

Enchanted ammo is potentially even cooler than an enchanted muskets...

 

Buckshot of Bleeding

 

Doom-shot of Evisceration

 

Munition of Venom

 

Aught Fifty Depleted Uranium rounds of Pwnage, for when you really have to kill every plate-armoured MoFo in the room.

[Tamerlane]

as a soon to be 'Murican statesian (51st state)

 

so...mexico...or canada?

Puerto Rico, though whether or not they succeed in become a state any time soon remains to be seen.

[.Leif.]

Enchanted ammo is potentially even cooler than an enchanted muskets...

Buckshot of Bleeding

Doom-shot of Evisceration

Munition of Venom

Aught Fifty Depleted Uranium rounds of Pwnage, for when you really have to kill every plate-armoured MoFo in the room.

 

You forgot Alchemical Fire Bullets, +6 Bullets of the Hackmaster and Vorpal Hexed Slugs. Magic bullets were already included in BG and IWD for the sing, so this isn't much of a leap for the setting they chose. This could be an interesting area for the crafting to cover. Ammo and Gun-smithing. I just hope they have a misfire system.

[Tauron]

...probably the road to hell. I would rather if tech was anathema to arcane magic like it was in Arcanum, were guns don't need to be magical because...well there guns. This way you could have guns that were very powerful and balance them with swords/medieval weapons by saying they couldn't be enchanted. Furthermore I'm not really a fan of ridiculous-amount-of-barrels-type guns but to each his own I suppose.

 

I'd really rather there not be firearms in the game, just doesn't go well with medieval games, but oh well.. =)

Delterius made a fair (if pendantic) point. the game is meant to be like late renaissance era or something, at a time when they would have had guns. You might not like them, but they will most likely be presented as period accurate given the technological progression evident in the world. I don;t think they are just going to toss a bunch of guns into the dark ages, because, yeah, that wouldn't go well.

i dont like tech & magic mixes and was quite sad when they announced it, i'm sure it prevented quite a few ppl from backing. My guess its better to go with the idea they have them forcefully remove less-liked parts that can hurt story in process. We will see how it will be, it can be a hit or miss.

 

I find myself really dislike debate about magic vs tech. I dont even want to get into that arcanum thingie of one vs another! One main reason i could not make a technomage... I really dont see why you'd assume people prefer one vs another? Also reason why magic interfers with tech was never really explained...for some reason more complicated constructed stuff just starts falling apart. And that is why magic is less present or outlawed in the world. That was poor. It would be more plausable if the more complicated tech was more available, more practical and lets say, user friendly. Sure if you study for a mage after 15 years of study , meditatting etc you can summon fire by snapping fingertips. Or you can buy granate from your next neighbour friendly weapon dealer.

 

Sword is NOT TECH? Thats like magic, swords and all weapons beside guns just magiclly are spawned from what appears the thin air? Plate? Crossbow, Bow etc. What is gun..nothing but slightly more complicated to comprehend weapon. Making swords and many other weapons is TECHNOLOGY and is more complicated than melting some metals.

 

What people did dislike whn they heared about it first time they were unsure what genre game falls in. Is it highfantasy, only like medivial era or is it steampunk, etc. Magic vs Tech is just stupid. Period. Why...well...becouse I say so! So...thats the end of that

[PsychoBlonde]

 

If the history of weapons development teaches us anything, it is that it is incredibly neutral. Mankind designs the most optimal and deadly weapons it can across all spectrums in order to ensure battlefield dominance. It's only in the past fifty years that we have started to develop 'ethical' weapons (i.e. precision munitions specifically designed to mitigate against collateral damage and advanced ISTAR assets that allow for better targeting. The changing and increasingly asymmetrical nature of warfare also plays a big part in this).

 

Also, historically, the percentage of people who had the know-how and means to produce weaponry was much, much smaller, and the weapons themselves weren't mass-produced. So if a mage made a magical firearm, he'd probably have that firearm on him or nearby him until someone took it from his cold, dead hands. It wouldn't be the same as a mage making 5000 of the things and selling them to every yahoo who wandered by.

 

Even if there is a relatively small weapon-producing population, the absolute numbers may still be very large. A group of adventurers doing a LOT of traveling and encountering a LOT of opposition may be able to amass quite a collection.

[Solonik]

I'd really rather there not be firearms in the game, just doesn't go well with medieval games, but oh well

 

I am with this guy. I don't care that "guns" existed in the middle ages - magic didn't. There is no way you can balance guns with magic and make it have a semblance of realism. Oh, keep in mind that these are unreliable, heavy, inaccurate, single shot guns that don't work when the powder gets wet, foul the living **** out of the barrel with every shot, attract everyone within 10 km that absolutely cannot be used to snipe. It just doesn't make sense.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Solonik

[Ninjamestari]

A high magic world with firearms; this is a disaster waiting to happen.

[Sabotin]

I believe the only thing that they have to do is provide a strong explanation and derive details from there.

 

In the world of PE we have these so called strong-souled people, who are a step above the common folk in that they can perform extraordinary acts. Now I can't assume that magic ones are stronger than the warrior ones, but I can assume that magic is more suitable for large scale warfare. So a strong kingdom would have some magic guild/tower/whatever, seeking these special people and teaching them the ways of magic throughout their lifetime. Perhaps there's even magocracies around.

On the other hand you have people that either gained riches or were born into them, but are nothing special themselves. They can coexist with strong souled people, but are inferior in practice. So to solve that they invent firearms. Weapons of superior strength, range and accuracy usable by practically anyone.

 

And from there you can make some more stuff up. Maybe some magocracy would just plain outlaw firearms. Other magic focused towns would not even flinch as their archmages continue to be far superior. Some towns would continue relying on magic purely because of lack of resources. Some other city known for its blacksmiths and iron would be overflowing with guns, making them the preferred weapon of soldiers and thugs alike. The mage guild there found a new calling in enchanting and magically improving these weapons - they are a powerful weapon for covering the mages weaknesses. And the small village at the edge of the forest would continue relying on their traps and bows...

 

Really I don't mind however it turns out as long as the use of magic and firearms is sensible (avoiding handwaving like in Arcanum). That's what "realism" for me is all about, not historical similitude.

[Diagoras]

For starters, I'd like to link to the episode on wheellocks of Ruger's Youtube series on firearms:

 

It's a good introduction. I'd also suggest watching the rest of it, especially the episode on matchlocks. If anyone else knows some good sources for learning about 16th century firearms, please link them.

 

I was wondering if people know if it's only wheellocks in the setting, or if there are also matchlocks? The reason being that historically speaking, the two existed at the same time and in fact filled very different roles in warfare. As the matchlock is somewhat simpler of an idea, and far more mechanically simple, it'd be surprising if only wheellocks were around. At the very least, I'd expect hand cannons to exist.

 

And as for fantasy and guns...I've never understood Fantasy Gun Control. The Medieval conventions, armors, and warfare that dominates works of high fantasy are all affected by and dependent on the existence of firearms and ordinance. Why don't they drop crossbows? Or metal armor? Why that one technology from the Late Medieval age? It's not like the standard fantasy setup is going to be seriously altered by its existence. I'd say that magic is usually far more cognitively dissonant, with everything from healing to resurrection to weather control being shown as having no effect on Medieval society when in fact it would have huge ones.

[Monte Carlo]

Exactly and bravo.

[Tethros]

Yeah, it's always possible to do the old D&D thing where guns (arquebuses?) exist, but are so unreliable and weak relative to conventional ranged weapons that you have little incentive to use them.

[Diagoras]

Yeah, it's always possible to do the old D&D thing where guns (arquebuses?) exist, but are so unreliable and weak relative to conventional ranged weapons that you have little incentive to use them.

 

That's not a very accurate or enjoyable solution. Modeling the weapons in-game on existing early 16th century weapons would work fine. In fact, I'd say that early firearms would meet the conventions of high fantasy better than many other weapons of the time. The huge gap between the effectiveness of an ill-maintained, cheap, matchlock arquebus and a top-of-the-line, lovingly cared for, and incredibly expensive wheellock pistol (excluding not only anarchonistic magical modifications but also rare enhancements which we see even in the 1400s, like rifling) is arguably far greater than the equivalent divide in crossbows, longbows, and even melee weapons. ie. Awesome, unique, and powerful guns crafted by sage and reclusive gunsmiths that were way better than their mass-produced equivalents were an actual thing in the 16th century. Excalibur should have been a pistol.

 

On the note of sources, this SCA site not only has good descriptions of the various firing mechanisms, but also shows exactly how they worked and in what time periods they operated. If you want a good demonstration of the difference between matchlock and wheellock weapons, check out the animated pictures in their links on both.

[AGX-17]

Enchanted ammo is potentially even cooler than an enchanted muskets...

 

Buckshot of Bleeding

 

Doom-shot of Evisceration

 

Munition of Venom

 

Aught Fifty Depleted Uranium rounds of Pwnage, for when you really have to kill every plate-armoured MoFo in the room.

 

Ignoring the fact that buckshot already causes bleeding... The idea of guns that fire enchanted bullets (which are the ideal offense against magic users in their own universe, especially cherished by non-mages for leveling the proverbial playing field) has been done:

 

 

If it was good enough for Joss Whedon, why not?

Edited November 15, 2012 by AGX-17