[Merged] Women, Feminism, etc. in PE

[RaccoonTOF]

Just whatever happens, make sure that the dialogue and story actually matches the onscreen representation as well - none of this "she was a plain, drab blah blah" and then toss out supermodel mesh #17 on screen. Or worse, attempt to be "PC" and bring "variety" in a manner that is words only - such as Disney with Sofia...

 

Edit: Link for those that don't understand the latter reference - http://thefw.com/disney-first-latina-princess/

Edited October 19, 2012 by RaccoonTOF

[Gecimen]

I'd like to see more physical variety in the artwork. Sprites don't matter as this is an IE game,

 

Edit: I mean both male and female.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Gecimen

[Gulliver]

@Joukehainen: You're not listening. At no point have I claimed that there is no such thing as discrimination against women. I have also not claimed that there is no such thing as institutional discrimination against women. What I have said is that it is not the opinion of a majority of society and scholars that any and all absence of women in positions of power can always be explained entirely by discrimination and oppression.

 

That's exactly what institutionalised discrimination and oppression means. It means the social group that is discriminated against is not in a position of power, ie that the members of that group are not considered to be the social, legal, and intellectual equals of the dominant group; and that as a result, they are underrepresented in decision-making positions in society. This leads those discriminated against, and society on a whole, to suffer economically, intellectually, physically, and psychologically.

 

What do you think is meant by institutionalised discrimination? Because saying "sure, institutional discrimination of women exists, but that's not why there are so few women in positions of power!" is a complete contradition in terms. If that is indeed what you mean, what then, I wonder, do you think the reason is why the very same groups that are subject to institutional discrimination happen to be those groups underrepresented in positions of power?

 

Yet again: You're not listening. Please reread what I wrote.

[Furiku]

This thread yet again has gone to great lenghts to rationalize why a slightly different formation of metal, that in most cases would protect the wearer just as well is bad, while entirely ignoring the dancing monkey in the room about the entirely naked monk that will presumably fight dragons and knights by punching them (or any other kind of "unrealism" that isn't based in feminist ideals for that matter).

 

You will excuse me if I don't believe there isn't any other agenda behind all these arguments, near-essays, mental gymnastics, feminist blogs and Kotaku (lol) links you throw around in rationalizing the lack of breasts and how any other way would be "unrealistic", yet completely ignore everything else.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Furiku

[RaccoonTOF]

I've actually pointed out, or tried at least, that I would like to see realism in ALL forms. And here by realism I don't necessarily mean historical accuracy, but in-world and physical plausibility. If said mostly naked monk is treated as having the same "armor" value as someone in full plate, then yes, I'll be just as quick to call foul on that as well . If his defensive abilities are of a more mobility-related and/or mystical/soul-use based nature, I won't find that any less plausible than the use of magical barriers by wizards or divine protection by priests. Hell - if that "boob plate" defense value was gotten through being enchanted, I'd have no issue with that either beyond a personal aesthetic one...but claiming that purely through the shaping of the steel the defensive value is the same as a "properly" designed breastplate? No...that I'm not gonna buy...

[Chabneruk]

You will excuse me if I don't believe there isn't any other agenda behind all these arguments, near-essays, feminist blogs and Kotaku (lol) links you throw around in rationalizing the lack of breasts and how any other way would be "unrealistic", yet completely ignoring everything else.

 

I think you are missing the point. The question isn't whether or not there will be "unrealistic" elements in PE but rather where which ones are "good" in a sense of "they enrich the game world" and which ones are not. Magic, for example, is good, while boobplates will only satisfy a percentage of the players without improving the game in any ingame-relevant way. And frankly, my idea was to ask around if other players are quite sick of these ridiculously sexualized, unrealistic women in games as well - as the answers show, many of them are.

 

It is not a matter of political correctness. I don't want an "ugly-women-quota" or anything. I want a believable word, with fantastic elements, yes, but not unrealistic without need.

[UncleBourbon]

The breasts are there, blacksmiths are just not pounding metal into special breastplates to show them off. That said, I mentioned monks earlier - the general concept in tabletops is that monks employ martial arts techniques, or something akin to it, to avoid or deflect blows rather than absorb them. That, and extreme fitness. Sometimes settings also employ a certain amount of ki/chi or energy techniques, or divine/infernal intervention. I usually have a monk go around wearing robes of some sort, but the issue is what kind of martial arts are being used? Many schools discourage lengthy hair, hanging apparel or long/loose sleeves because they can be grabbed and you can be thrown, or pinned, or simply injured.

 

That said, the typical bare-chested monk flexing those super-pecs-and-abs has been around since the very early renditions of monks in Dungeons and Dragons, iirc. Yes, it is in a way sexist and such, but I don't know anyone who is uncomfortable in seeing them, or feel it objectifies the monk. After all, those are muscles well toned from years of discipline and work, not slabs of fat they were lucky enough to be born with the genetics for. Granted the monk is probably pretty well off in genetics, but still.

 

As for consistancy, there is an issue here. I don't think all monks would be super muscled men dodging around blades and bullets and punching things to death. I liked the orders system in most pen and paper codices, where some monks specialise in one thing, like improvised weapons. That is kind of hard to implement, I imagine. But basically the revealed monk character is clearly muscular, and I imagine the eye tatoo along his torso has some deeper meaning. But sure, I'm not against a revision with his portrait being remade to him standing quietly with a robe or somehing.

 

Then again, we are simply assuming he is a monk - he might be a barbarian of some sort. In which case I don't mind seeing him wearing some padded armor, or maybe a chain shirt. Realistically, monks - at least, senior monks - should have some prodigous abilities akin to seasoned warriors, as they've spent years training and meditating, sharpening their skills and minds.

Edited October 19, 2012 by UncleBourbon

[Nixl]

 

 

Still, I'd find it much more interesting when in a world of normal looking women there was one that looked perfect - and then you discover that she is a quite hateable and shallow character and you prefer your not-as-perfect but interesting companion...

 

I do not mean to nitpick, but is this not just another trope? The"pretty exterior, rotten interior" seems like a prevalent theme in media as well the oversexualized characters.

 

Ultimately, I half agree with you. I do not want Obsidian putting in oversexualized characters to sell the game. At the same time, however, I do not want Obsidian to place in reactionary writing or characters to combat oversexualization. That also feels artificial.

[RaccoonTOF]

Also remember that what makes one a monk is not so much their "martial arts" as it is their asceticism - by their very nature, monks would not be given towards possession of gaudy/expensive weapons or armor, and thus whatever methods/techniques employed by "fighting monks" would have been developed along those lines...

[Moirnelithe]

Honestly, I don't care if there is any sexy female clothing and what not as long as the story and gameplay isn't affected. The only thing I insist on is the possibility of playing a female character and the world reacting to that. I'm sad to see so many RPGs forcing me to play a guy or when I do get to play a female it is tacked on and everything in the game is obviously geared towards a male gamer audience. [sarcasm] Yeah, let's just ignore the female playerbase because females don't game....they only play facebook 'games'. [/sarcasm].

[AlphaShard]

Now he..oh sorry, she, looks like a guy in drag at best.

 

She looks downright pretty in the wallpaper shooting zombies.

 

Opinions I guess.

 

Yeah the concept art still has her in a feminine stance she still seems curvy. I also don't see how you don't see the female face there. Heck her breast plate still looks like its giving room for the presence of breast. She looks like all woman to me.

[D3xter]

What it amounts to is censorship and that is something I oppose.

 

I'd like to quote a rapper's comments on the issue with comedian Daniel Tosh, because it applies here:

 

"This is not a free speech issue. As a comic (or poet, or rapper, or singer or whatever), you have the right to say whatever the hell you want to say on stage. But your audience has that same right. If you say something hurtful or offensive, they can heckle you, call you out, start internet campaigns to ban you from clubs, whatever. And you have to deal with that.

 

No one is trying to make it illegal for a comic to say offensive ****; we’re just trying to hold you accountable. That’s a huge difference, and people hiding behind the “free speech” argument are really missing the point. I want you to take chances on stage, to challenge people, even to deal with hecklers harshly—but there are a million ways to do that without joking about something that is extremely hurtful to so many people. Less offensive ways, sure, but funnier ways too."

 

In that same vein, there are many ways to make a character, and succumbing to sexist, racist, or offensive stereotypes that represent a discriminated group in society (that's in OUR world, not in the diegetic game world) are neither clever nor fulfilling. For example, out of all the sorts of characters the makers of the recent Transformers movies could chose to make for a transformer, they chose, among others, to make two absurdly racist stereotypes. It's lazy and caters to the lowest common denominator.

 

And I'd like to point you to this, because he dealt with "that" perfectly: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-july-16-2012/louis-c-k

 

This is from the man that cast a black actress as his "ex-wife" in his show by the way, even though both his girls are white: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/27/louis-ck-why-cast-black-mother-white-children-video_n_1629950.html

 

For that matter I'm always somewhat confused when people throw all the other different liberal attitudes in regards to all people being treated equal, equal wages and opportunity, being against racism and hate and extremists of any kind etc. together with "feminism", since it is perfectly possible to want all of the above and still think that the largest amount of feminists nowadays are bat**** crazy extremists themselves.

 

I actually grew up with the belief that men and women are equal, my mother worked and had a position of power in the same company my father worked at throughout my youth and there have been many female role models throughout school and university I could look up to, and it never even occured to me to treat certain people differently because they were male or female, the first time I actually came in contact with this new outgrowth of "feminism" (guess I was lucky growing up in Eastern and Western Europe, where things like "gender studies" weren't really a thing until recently) was mainly through gaming journalism of all things in the last few years, and so far it has done the exact opposite of what it tried to do, since it largely doesn't seem to be movement about equality as it was in the past anymore, but about special rights and trying to push a certain kind of political view and "political correctness" as they see it across the broad spectrum of society and into entertainment mediums that were largely unpolitical before.

[UncleBourbon]

I agree that the world should react to female player characters, but I think many developers shy away from having a major difference in gender reaction, for fear of being considered sexist or somesuch. Examples would be the bisexual nature of just about all companions in recent cRPGs, meaning the player's gender doesn't affect relations with them. The chance to become queen in Dragon Age Origins was a touch, and Sten's dialogue was a nice touch. But I think developers need to create a stance on charname's [class/race/gender here] internally, implement subtley in the game (with some noticable events, but hopefully not too cliche) and then have them react to you like that.

[Chabneruk]

Once again, the term of "political correctness" springs up - while he have already established that, while this thread may share some common overtones with pc-debates, this is NOT about political correctness, it is about a believable world with realism where it is appropriate. This is also about hypersexualised female characters in other games, which are not sexy, which are not interesting, which are just there to sell a product. Once again: No one wants to ban physically beautiful women from the game, or seductive clothing for that matter.

 

BUT to have a believable, interesting world there should be a majority of women who are NOT sex bombs. They can still be attractive, in an unique way or by character. And there should be some women who are plainly not attractive AND STILL be skilled in their way, not comic reliefs.

 

And, again, that the game engine does not show a detailed 3d-model does NOT mean this is not a topic, because there is concept art, loading screens, trailers and the likes.

 

But I will be happy to bring these arguments every three pages or so, because I find the discussion really interesting and I want it to go on

 

Examples would be the bisexual nature of just about all companions in recent cRPGs, meaning the player's gender doesn't affect relations with them.

 

Yes, those were strange. I would vote for Companion preferences (gender, race, behaviour) in these matters...

[Meshugger]

I find this thread hilariously ironic with so many men debating the looks on women. Come on fighting the good fight, my dear white knights!

 

 

(seriously, maybe one or two women are participating perhaps?)

[Malcador]

I am wondering how long they can keep spinning up about this, though.

 

Honestly, I don't care if there is any sexy female clothing and what not as long as the story and gameplay isn't affected. The only thing I insist on is the possibility of playing a female character and the world reacting to that.

 

Your bitterness at games past aside, when you say you want the world to react to your PC being female, what kind of reactions are you thinking of, out of curiosity ?

[RaccoonTOF]

Eh, I criticized the same stereotypical approach to men too...

[Jasede]

I find this thread hilariously ironic with so many men debating the looks on women. Come on fighting the good fight, my dear white knights!

 

 

(seriously, maybe one or two women are participating perhaps?)

 

[Shadenuat]

There's nothing to debate or defend - Obsidian's heroines are cool, often the spotlight of game plot (Kreia, Safiya), and have good design.

[DocDoomII]

Do you want to discuss, or to get the topic closed?

[Malcador]

There's nothing to debate or defend - Obsidian's heroines are cool, often the spotlight of game plot (Kreia, Safiya), and have good design.

 

You'd think someone would have clued in on that by now, eh ?

[Jasede]

Do you want to discuss, or to get the topic closed?

Duh.

[mr.Ermac]

Requesting a lock on this thread. This will lead to nothing good and will probably end up ugly.

[HansKrSG]

People should be diverse, on both side of the sexes, I agree.

[RaccoonTOF]

There's nothing to debate or defend - Obsidian's heroines are cool, often the spotlight of game plot (Kreia, Safiya), and have good design.

 

The issue being discussed here (at least as brought up in the OP) is not so much centered around the heroines (or heroes) as it is about the rest of the inhabitants of the world in general, and the cultures they are part of. And the same can not always be said for them, even in Obsidian games...