Where should Endless Paths (the mega dungeon) draw its inspiration from?

[jezz555]

Okay then how about a dungeon that goes through the entire spectrum of emotions.

 

Starting with empathy on the first level...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...all the way down to despair.

 

I like this, I wouldn't mind a sort of Dante's Inferno kind of thing. Where the dungeon begins fairly easy and light hearted and then you slowly descend into hell.

[kenup]

Okay then how about a dungeon that goes through the entire spectrum of emotions.

 

Starting with empathy on the first level...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...all the way down to despair.

I like this, I wouldn't mind a sort of Dante's Inferno kind of thing. Where the dungeon begins fairly easy and light hearted and then you slowly descend into hell.

So kind of like the 7 sins, but instead we have 15 levels of desperation?

 

Binding of Isaac(the game) style!

[Tsuga C]

In general, I'm not a huge fan of dungeons just because they have huge logical inconsistencies. If nobody can get in or out, where do all these monsters come from? What do they eat? How do they avoid killing themselves in the death traps sprinkled about the place? It's like you wandered into an Evil Monster Convention. Granted, that might be a pretty amusing idea.

 

I have to third this assertion. If the dungeon is supppoed to have 15 levels, then how is fresh air, water, and food being brought in to see to the needs of the inhabitants and how is all of the waste being handled? If it's populated by undead or clockwork creatures, then that eliminates a lot of the questions of biological viability, but it still leaves unsolved the question of why all of those entities are sticking around after all of these many decades or centures of abandonment. Something has to account for their presence.

[Stun]

Nope, unless you're Dwarven.

 

Huge underground complexes don't start at the surface. Workers dig and dig for whole lifetimes, THEN they lay the foundations at the bottom, and then start building levels upward.

Really? Not that bottom-up isn't viable, still, it's not the only one.

It's the standard.

 

From your link:

 

Conventionally, buildings with underground basements are built by bottom-up method where sub-structure and super-structure floors are constructed sequentially from the bottom of the sub-structure or lowest level of basement to the top of the super-structure. Though this conventional method, also called as bottom-up method, is simple in both design and construction

 

And they dig for whole lifetimes? What is this, the dark ages?

Yes? Or much earlier? Fantasy dungeon settings typically occur in ancient times, or, they occur in modern times but the structure itself is an ancient ruin. To put things in perspective, In PE's world, for example, the printing press will have not yet been invented, so the notion of giant, motorized industrial cranes (or whatever it takes to build a structure top-down), is an impossibility. Of course, we could take the easy way out, and just say that the builders used telekenetic magics of epic proportions to build a massive 15 level dungeon from the top down. lol

 

Doesn't matter anyway; you still start digging from the surface, not the bottom.

That's irrelevant. The measurable age of a structure (what we're discussing) begins after its first floor has been built and has become habitable.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Stun

[SophosTheWise]

Three words: Indiana ****ing Jones.

[Agelastos]

In general, I'm not a huge fan of dungeons just because they have huge logical inconsistencies. If nobody can get in or out, where do all these monsters come from? What do they eat? How do they avoid killing themselves in the death traps sprinkled about the place? It's like you wandered into an Evil Monster Convention. Granted, that might be a pretty amusing idea.

 

I have to third this assertion. If the dungeon is supppoed to have 15 levels, then how is fresh air, water, and food being brought in to see to the needs of the inhabitants and how is all of the waste being handled? If it's populated by undead or clockwork creatures, then that eliminates a lot of the questions of biological viability, but it still leaves unsolved the question of why all of those entities are sticking around after all of these many decades or centures of abandonment. Something has to account for their presence.

 

Maybe there are no inhabitants in the lower levels, except for (giant?) subterranean insects that get in where the walls have collapsed, and/or supernatural creatures for whom air, water, waste disposal, etc. isn't an issue?

Maybe it wasn't a problem for the original inhabitants because the dungeon was actually built as a tower thousands of years ago, but has since been buried by the desert sands?

Edited November 19, 2012 by Agelastos

[UpgrayeDD]

Here's the deal as far as I see it. Yes, you could create a big, bad dungeon, with the most deadly traps, and the most fiendish puzzles, and the toughest monsters, all leading up to some great artifact on the lowest level, with the power to rend the world asunder. But from a design standpoint, that doesn't really break much ground; it just builds on existing tropes in bigger and better ways. Not that you can't get creative with it, just that you can't create much of a new paradigm.

 

So here would be my challenge to our legendary designers: create an ecosystem. How did the dungeon come to be? Where is the intersection between the designed or created parts of the dungeon and the natural parts? How are there things living so deep in the earth for so long? What do they feed on? Has a civilization of sentient creatures found a way to burgeon underground? What kind of evolutionary pathways did they follow? What kind of culture and society have they created to allow their continued existence in extreme conditions? Did they build an underground city that spans multiple levels? To what extent does the shape of the dungeon change over time due to geological forces or due to the creatures living their? If you're continuing to go deeper, will you find archaeological or biological mysteries?

 

This megadungeon is an opportunity to break away from the tropes of a classical dungeon, where the design of the DM's divine hand is evident in each monster and each trap. In my mind, the ultimate dungeon would feel ORGANIC. Ok, I think that's all I have to say.

I really dont want to be the one to burst your bubble but here goes. Ever hear of the underdark?

Edited November 19, 2012 by UpgrayeDD

[PsychoBlonde]

Why do people assume - the deeper you go the older the dungeon gets? That to me geographically makes no sense what so ever.

 

Unless were dealing with a subterranean race that started of X amount of floors underground (mole people) wouldn't the older stuff be at the top, with the simple, old, decrepit stuff at the top and the more modern expansions built under or more spreading out from the origin.

 

 

Because this is how city construction works. The old construction subsides over the years and gradually gets covered by the new stuff. If ruins are abandoned for a substantial length of time, dirt builds up on top of them, sinking them even deeper. Plus there are events like volcanic eruptions like the one at Pompeii which can bury an entire city under an enormous depth of ash and mud.

 

I, personally, haven't heard of any cases where new construction was expanded *down from* existing construction. It is usually built on top of the old stuff, or the remnants of the old stuff.

 

That's not to say that this couldn't be reversed with a naturally underground-oriented race, though, who tend to expand downward instead of upward/outward.

[gglorious]

I have to third this assertion. If the dungeon is supppoed to have 15 levels, then how is fresh air, water, and food being brought in to see to the needs of the inhabitants and how is all of the waste being handled? If it's populated by undead or clockwork creatures, then that eliminates a lot of the questions of biological viability, but it still leaves unsolved the question of why all of those entities are sticking around after all of these many decades or centures of abandonment. Something has to account for their presence.

I agree with this concern.

 

That's why I'd push for a dungeon of this size to be very supernatural in it's workings. So, "magic causes it" can resolve a lot of these problems, even without seeming too ad hoc. If the demon or magical snarl is powerful enough, then anything could result from it. Also, the supernatural often desires mortal interaction, so it will make itself habitable in certain senses while still dangerous. So, it will have sufficient air, but a lot of other horrible creatures will result from it existing.

 

Definitely not part of the horror crowd, not for 15 dungeon levels straight, I get miserable just thinking about having to wade through 15 levels of depression.

I think a plausible solution could be to have earlier levels be more moderate and within the more acceptable limits of dungeons with some horror undercurrents. So, Irenicus's dungeon in BG2 is a horror dungeon to some extent, but it isn't necessarily overwhelming. And traditional dungeons have plenty of room to have horrifying elements without being too striking or depressing, by having the horror be a theme or undercurrent.

 

Additionally, earlier levels can hint at something being wrong with subtle cues(you loot a bookshelf and all of the books are on dying, but you wouldn't know unless you're the kind to actually read the books), or inconsistencies, or world inconsistencies(how did i move from a cave into a monastery? Why is there a forest underground? what the heck IS this place I am now? etc), or bizarre recurrences. So, if you see the same adventuring party across several levels, and each time they have forgotten that they saw you, or even appear to be alive after you killed them on a higher level, or show radical psychological shifts across instances, that indicates something is very wrong, but it's only creepy, not terror or depression. Players are led to wonder what's going wrong, but they aren't necessarily scared, just a bit creeped out.

 

Around the bottom, I'd think purer horror would be good. The story is coming to a close and it needs to be more intense to be memorable. Also, whatever is wrong is a big issue. So, the subtlety fades away into blatantly disturbing traits. We'd expect the last levels to be purer in whatever notion the dungeon is representing.

 

I'm not so fussed about the inspiration. I'm more concerned about the content. Since this dungeon is going to be so large it will need plenty of quests and subplots within the dungeon to keep me engaged. Durlags tower got a bit boring for me by the end of it and Dragons Eye just seemed interminable, it just never ended and became a bit tedious in my mind. Puzzles and combat are great, but something that is going to be 15 levels deep will need its own stories and sub stories.

 

I actually strongly agree! That's another strength I see with a psychological horror. Because the idea is to be psychological, it's desirable to find lots of characters to have sub-plots with, because they draw you into the horror story. And the sub-plots themselves can involve recurrences on several levels, so on level 2, you might encounter a dwarven merchant with his wife who is searching for his lost memento. On the 7th level he's searching for his wife. On the 12 level, he lost his wife again, but this time when you find her she ends up being an undead abomination and a semi-difficult boss, and when you tell him the bad news, he accuses you of murdering her and tries to kill you.

 

The dwarf doesn't actually have to be real for you to have a real interaction with him. And while some of the characters you interact with there can actually end up being real and you end up saving them, a lot of them could just be fictions by the magic of that place to pull you into the story and the world of the dungeon.

 

The issue being that if you're in hell, you don't have a lot of reason to believe you'll find real people. You'd expect to run into demons. If you're in a crypt, you'd expect to mostly run into undead, and undead often don't elicit the same degree of psychological response. And in either case, if you ever ran into a real person, there would be a realism issue because it's a dungeon and those don't have a lot of food or air. In horror, maybe these people are real people who were called to this place, maybe they're fake, but both are real possibilities.

 

-------------------------------

I mean, I think there are other possibilities:

1) You''re travelling into an underground tunnel. This tunnel leads to an underground city that's still populated by the undead and perhaps whatever killed the original inhabitants. The first few levels are the tunnel, which could have been built by any group. Then you get to the city, which may have been built by an earlier race of underground dwarves, and then the rest of the dungeon is exploring that city. Lots of undead, as the people died terribly, a few underground monsters, magical defenses built by the dwarves, etc. The problem I see is the realism in the oxygen, and the difficulty in creating a lot of variation.

 

2) A burrowing demon has emerged. The first few levels are the crypt where the demon started burrowing. Maybe some undead. Then there are cave levels where the demon's burrowing has fully created these levels. Maybe some creatures drawn by the demon exist here. Maybe weaker demons. Then you may run into an underground ruin, and this ruin contains a lot of the underground ruin issues. Then you finally get to the hell levels, closest to where the demon is.

 

3) A magical snarl of some form has been spotted due to a magical ritual of extreme power that went haywire. It's a portal found somewhere, maybe a wizard's tower. The first levels may be the earlier parts of the wizard's tower. Then you enter the portal, and the levels now have all of the variation of like Planescape. You could portal into a hell level. You could portal into a fae level. You could portal into an earth level. The driving issue is that something has disrupted the magical workings of supernature such that you have this interconnection between different planes and dimensions and the adventuring party has the role of exploring this supernatural realm, and of solving the magical anomaly so that way it doesn't undermine the workings of reality. It could support a lot more social interactions, sub-plots and the rest than a normal dungeon because it's not *really* a dungeon so much as a set of interconnected supernatural realms that the players find themselves travelling through.

 

4) Hell. It's exactly as it sounds. The players go to hell. They fight all sorts of varied demons and demon worshipers and supernatural magic. The levels of hell are very different, some of them even seeming superficially heavenly. Continuity of ideas is preserved across the dungeon as it's all hell. Given that hell is pretty hostile though, it may be hard to form real connections to it or sub-plots worth caring about. However, it also can support a lot of variation.

 

I just think horror is a lot better. The first two don't sound as open to creativity as horror could. The magical snarl could suffer from simply being a bunch of unconnected dungeon experiences that happen to be connected, rather than something with an ongoing theme. The fourth is a pretty solid competitor, but I don't think it will be the same emotional experience on many levels. All of them can allow for some sense and internal consistency.

[kenup]

-snip-

You said the only way to start from the surface is if someone is a dwarf/dwarven. Fair enough about the rest. and very correct about the last one

 

Although I thought we were discussing construction methods? Whatever. It still counts as one building, and expands, downwards, later on, but whatever.

 

 

Three words: Indiana ****ing Jones.

Though fun, it would be too tame I think.

Edited November 20, 2012 by kenup

[aluminiumtrioxid]

In general, I'm not a huge fan of dungeons just because they have huge logical inconsistencies. If nobody can get in or out, where do all these monsters come from? What do they eat? How do they avoid killing themselves in the death traps sprinkled about the place? It's like you wandered into an Evil Monster Convention. Granted, that might be a pretty amusing idea.

 

I have to third this assertion. If the dungeon is supppoed to have 15 levels, then how is fresh air, water, and food being brought in to see to the needs of the inhabitants and how is all of the waste being handled? If it's populated by undead or clockwork creatures, then that eliminates a lot of the questions of biological viability, but it still leaves unsolved the question of why all of those entities are sticking around after all of these many decades or centures of abandonment. Something has to account for their presence.

 

Who on Earth gives half a flying ****?

[Rostere]

In general, I'm not a huge fan of dungeons just because they have huge logical inconsistencies. If nobody can get in or out, where do all these monsters come from? What do they eat? How do they avoid killing themselves in the death traps sprinkled about the place? It's like you wandered into an Evil Monster Convention. Granted, that might be a pretty amusing idea.

 

I have to third this assertion. If the dungeon is supppoed to have 15 levels, then how is fresh air, water, and food being brought in to see to the needs of the inhabitants and how is all of the waste being handled? If it's populated by undead or clockwork creatures, then that eliminates a lot of the questions of biological viability, but it still leaves unsolved the question of why all of those entities are sticking around after all of these many decades or centures of abandonment. Something has to account for their presence.

 

Who on Earth gives half a flying ****?

FAIL. There's a difference between making sense and introducing superfluous gaming mechanics. Also, a lot of people care, me included.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

FAIL. There's a difference between making sense and introducing superfluous gaming mechanics. Also, a lot of people care, me included.

 

Dungeons do NOT have to make realistic sense. Striving for realism (especially in dungeon-creation, but in general fantasy worldbuilding too) is counter-productive, because it narrows down your options greatly. Basically you have to throw out a lot of interesting content, and replace it with less interesting ones, which means less fun. Something to be avoided.

Edited November 20, 2012 by aluminiumtrioxid

[GhoulishVisage]

In general, I'm not a huge fan of dungeons just because they have huge logical inconsistencies. If nobody can get in or out, where do all these monsters come from? What do they eat? How do they avoid killing themselves in the death traps sprinkled about the place? It's like you wandered into an Evil Monster Convention. Granted, that might be a pretty amusing idea.

 

I have to third this assertion. If the dungeon is supppoed to have 15 levels, then how is fresh air, water, and food being brought in to see to the needs of the inhabitants and how is all of the waste being handled? If it's populated by undead or clockwork creatures, then that eliminates a lot of the questions of biological viability, but it still leaves unsolved the question of why all of those entities are sticking around after all of these many decades or centures of abandonment. Something has to account for their presence.

 

This is really the last thing the devs should be allocating time, resources and thought to.

What the player gets out of something like this is infinitesimal compared to what the dev would have to put in, and runs the risk of making the dungeons less fun.

 

Seriously rather have those resources go elsewhere.

[Rostere]

Dungeons do NOT have to make realistic sense. Striving for realism (especially in dungeon-creation, but in general fantasy worldbuilding too) is counter-productive, because it narrows down your options greatly. Basically you have to throw out a lot of interesting content, and replace it with less interesting ones, which means less fun. Something to be avoided.

 

You haven't understood the problem at all. Realism is the wrong word. To make things clear: blocks which eject mushrooms which in turn make you grow larger are consistent with the surrealistic Mario universe. Implementing the same mechanic in the next Modern Warfare game however would probably cause an outrage, because it is not consistent with what we know about the Modern Warfare universe.

 

So, if you go deep underground to a crypt which has been sealed for thousands of years and encounter a pack of hobgoblins, because that's what the DM rolled on some table, immersion would be pretty broken. Where did they live and where did they get their food and water? Their sudden appearance there is not consistent with what we know about the stone crypt, or the hobgoblins.

 

It's all about immersion and internal consistency. If the world feels like it's been designed by a six-year old it's going to feel entirely different. If you want an Axe Cop- like cartoonish game where the premises are so stupid and absurd it's fun, maybe you should mail the devs about that, because I don't think that is their intent with the game.

 

This is really the last thing the devs should be allocating time, resources and thought to.

What the player gets out of something like this is infinitesimal compared to what the dev would have to put in, and runs the risk of making the dungeons less fun.

 

Seriously rather have those resources go elsewhere.

 

I don't know about you, but for most others it does not take significant "resources" to just THINK A LITTLE when you create a dungeon.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Rostere

[Juneau]

Because this is how city construction works. The old construction subsides over the years and gradually gets covered by the new stuff. If ruins are abandoned for a substantial length of time, dirt builds up on top of them, sinking them even deeper. Plus there are events like volcanic eruptions like the one at Pompeii which can bury an entire city under an enormous depth of ash and mud.

 

I, personally, haven't heard of any cases where new construction was expanded *down from* existing construction. It is usually built on top of the old stuff, or the remnants of the old stuff.

 

That's not to say that this couldn't be reversed with a naturally underground-oriented race, though, who tend to expand downward instead of upward/outward.

 

Firstly, it's been covered that not all city construction works that way. Some do expand (I've only ever seen downward construction twice and both were expanding a basement to include lower levels.)

 

Secondly, this isn't the city. If we assume that the dungeon is built from the bottom up then the entire dungeon has to have been created by ONE race. Well, I can argue not necessarily as I suppose someone could of started building it and someone finished but that's a bit unlikely. Unless this was some great kingdom/castle that was constantly under siege or what ever but then why were they still building it?

 

Finally, this is fantasy. My assumption is that at the time. Who ever built the top level maybe built a few lower levels. The people who centuries later who took over expanded upon this. Therefore giving the dungeon different levels from different eras. At which point the newer/more complex (technologically/magically) stuff would be at the bottom.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

So, if you go deep underground to a crypt which has been sealed for thousands of years and encounter a pack of hobgoblins, because that's what the DM rolled on some table, immersion would be pretty broken. Where did they live and where did they get their food and water? Their sudden appearance there is not consistent with what we know about the stone crypt, or the hobgoblins.

 

It's all about immersion and internal consistency.

 

True. But bitching about where the unimaginable eldritch horrors beyond the ken of man which lurk at the bottom of the dungeon gain their sustenance from is rather silly.

I'm all about immersion and internal consistency, but not at the price of interesting gameplay.

 

By the way, the answer to your question is: they feed off the emotions of adventurers and superstitions surrounding this place in the eyes of the populace. Bamm, problem solved most elegantly and without resorting to the extremely boring and unimaginative "it's because of magic" argument.

Edited November 20, 2012 by aluminiumtrioxid

[GhoulishVisage]

I don't know about you, but for most others it does not take significant "resources" to just THINK A LITTLE when you create a dungeon.

 

They're talking about designing and programming a working dungeon-based ecosystem. That sounds pretty significant to me.

 

Unless I'm just looking at this completely the wrong way.

[Rostere]

True. But bitching about where the unimaginable eldritch horrors beyond the ken of man which lurk at the bottom of the dungeon gain their sustenance from is rather silly.

I'm all about immersion and internal consistency, but not at the price of interesting gameplay.

 

By the way, the answer to your question is: they feed off the emotions of adventurers and superstitions surrounding this place in the eyes of the populace. Bamm, problem solved most elegantly and without resorting to the extremely boring and unimaginative "it's because of magic" argument.

That is a very plausible explanation in this case. But different monsters require different explanations. As long as you know what you're doing and think about it, that's fine with me.

[kenup]

Because this is how city construction works. The old construction subsides over the years and gradually gets covered by the new stuff. If ruins are abandoned for a substantial length of time, dirt builds up on top of them, sinking them even deeper. Plus there are events like volcanic eruptions like the one at Pompeii which can bury an entire city under an enormous depth of ash and mud.

 

I, personally, haven't heard of any cases where new construction was expanded *down from* existing construction. It is usually built on top of the old stuff, or the remnants of the old stuff.

 

That's not to say that this couldn't be reversed with a naturally underground-oriented race, though, who tend to expand downward instead of upward/outward.

You're right, but he's talking about constructing one building in one go, and later wanting to continue building even lower(whatever the reason). At least that's what I understand he's saying. The fact that the dungeon may be an old ruin to the player, and as a result of physical phenomena be even lower(or higher) is not his point.

 

We don't know if there are actually underground oriented races(not even about the dwarves) in PE, so let's not conclude how they tend to build based on other fantastic races.

 

Other than that, you're right, there is no reason to continue building downwards... unless someone is trying to find or protect/hide something(and for some reason that's the best way they could come up with)

 

And this whole thing about eating; if they are magically sustained/summoned creatures, who's to say they even need tangible food to survive? Or that they don't venture outside once in a while? There can be many explanations, but IMO there is no need for that much thought put into it from our perspective.

 

Not yet anyway, it would be entertaining to see the countless theories about it after the game is released!

Edited November 20, 2012 by kenup

[wanderon]

I don't know about you, but for most others it does not take significant "resources" to just THINK A LITTLE when you create a dungeon.

 

They're talking about designing and programming a working dungeon-based ecosystem. That sounds pretty significant to me.

 

Unless I'm just looking at this completely the wrong way.

 

I think the question is whether or not a dungeon in a fantasy RPG requires a fully explainable eco-system or whether or not it could just "work in mysterious ways" - ways that perhaps become more clear as you uncover it's secrets - perhaps not.

 

As to whether or not it needs to be clear exactly what the denizens of the dungeons are eating or drinking or where they dispose of their waste or how clean the air they breathe is and how it got that way - frankly I suspect that there are a hell of a lot more gamers that simply do not require these things to be clear in order to enjoy a massive dungeon crawl than there are those who do require it.

 

Most of us just want an engaging and fun experience and if it would be technically impossible for such a dungeon to exist in our world realisticly or in any other world that was like our own world as far as these things go - that just makes me yawn - put me in the "realism is unnecessary in CRPGs" category.

 

Do I want to run into the Mario brothers on level 3 and Peter Pan on level 4? No but neither do I think Obsidian needs my guidance to figure that out or to take the time and effort to make an amazing dungeon that I will enjoy for countless run-throughs.

[Agelastos]

I don't think a fantasy world has to abide by real world laws of science, but it should at least have its own set of rules. Maybe the world of P.E. is a Hollow Earth. That would solve at least some of the issues discussed here.

[Pope]

By the way, the answer to your question is: they feed off the emotions of adventurers and superstitions surrounding this place in the eyes of the populace. Bamm, problem solved most elegantly and without resorting to the extremely boring and unimaginative "it's because of magic" argument.

Oooooh, this would fit nicely with my idea of exploring the spectrum of emotions:

 

Starting with empathy on the first level...

...all the way down to despair.

Well, maybe the positive emotions should be limited to the (more light-hearted) levels above ground, such as Joy, Love and Hope.

 

The underground levels could then cover the negative emotions, such as:

1. Grief
   
2. Indifference
   
3. Disappointment
   
4. Confusion / Doubt
   
5. Regret / Remorse / Guilt
   
6. Embarrassment / Humiliation / Shame
   
7. Lust
   
8. Frustration
   
9. Jealousy / Envy
   
10. Loathing / Contempt
    
11. Anger
    
12. Agony
    
13. Fear / Panic / Anxiety
    
14. Sadness / Depression
    
15. Despair
    

Oh look, that's 15. Isn't that a coincidence.

Edited November 20, 2012 by Pope

[Mamoulian War]

Two words:

 

Rappan Athuk

[PandaXpresso]

No matter how good combat is in an RPG, I can only take so long dungeon crawling. The dungeon shouldn't just be 15 levels of enemies and puzzles, it would great if some levels were interspersed with civilization and some "urban"/"diplomatic" questing in addition to the dungeon crawling. Something like the undead town of PS:T would be great.