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HangedMan

Idea: merge the stronghold and 2nd big city

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This is a creative thought, but I'd prefer to have these separate too, I think. The big, big cities should be cities that have been around for centuries, and that have a significant history. Building a stronghold into a major city overnight would be cheap in a way.

 

I wouldn't mind of the stronghold could be built into a large town, with its own shops and, homes, farms and the like on the outskirts.


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It would be really interesting if that stronghold was given you to prevent any uprisings from The Mega Dungeon

 

Actually my idea was that the keep on top of the Mega Dungeon would make for a great stronghold and allow the Megadungeon to have quests that influence the stronghold and vice versa. Your idea would fit with that.

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I'd prefer the two big Cities remain intact and as the story progresses your own stronghold gains a small town/ village as your sphere of influence grows. (Tavern, Houses, Blacksmith, Tanners, Farmers, Temples, Marketplace Increased Anti-siege weapons, Moat/ redirected waterways, Extended walls, magical elements, etc etc)

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There are a few ways you could have a stronghold linked to a city or incorporated into it. Your influence over the city would not have to limit access to the city content, but could be expressed through a few key features. For instance as governor of the city, you might fund the city watch, and determine it's armament and level of training.

 

However, that could still impact on the aesthetics and style of the city in ways that could limit design, when we consider things like belief and culture. For instance, if the city is a religious one(not that far fetched considering the lore to date), having an anti-religious pc as governor or lord protector could be an interesting plot option, but it could also come across as contrived, or run contrary to the narrative that the devs imagine for such a city.

 

An alternative would be if the fortress was in a particular Ward of the city, which the pc could then build up along with it. Imagine if the city had a run down 'old wall district' with a bunch of hovels and an old fortress in it. Fixing the wall and fort might be the priority of the pc dwelling there, but they might opt instead to enrich the district and attract commerce and other parts of city life into it.

 

On balance however, I think a frontier fortress is more likely- even if it is itself, the beginnings of a town or city-state. Another way to link the fortress into the cities in this case would be if acted as a link between them- a midpoint for land trade, and a place where their leaders could meet and negotiate. Merchants from each city might appear in caravans at the fortress gates from time to time and you might play a pivotal role in conflicts between the two regions.

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This topic reminds me of city building games. As the fledgling warlord, you set up a small fort, then it gets expanded into a castle as your influence grows. As your fame increase, you attract more people to your banner, until eventually a small town forms around your stronghold. Nice idea, but do not think the devs will go for it, because this is an RPG adventure, not a city builder. I see improvements like these will be available through mods.

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That would only work if it made sense with the story that the PC would end up being in control of a large city. With what we know of the story (very little) it's hard to say if such a thing even made sense in the world.

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To those saying "what if I don't want to build a stronghold?". I believe Josh stated at some point that in his mind, what makes a stronghold different from a mere house is that a house is just a place to hang out and store gear, while a stronghold has a more strategic importance to the plot (a la Crossroads Keep. And yes, I understand that BG2 strongholds weren't really like that. But BG2 is old. Things change, guys). So I highly doubt that the stronghold would be an optional task to undertake only if you feel like it.

 

Integrating the stronghold to a city could make sense and be quite awesome, actually. I wouldn't go quite as far as saying that we'd build the city, but what about establishing a faction within it that becomes central to the plot? We've been told that alignment would be implemented as a reputation system like in FNV, so it's safe to assume that several factions vying for power and control will be integral to the story. Why not become one of these?

 

And for people who want class-based strongholds, this gives it a coherent form. Will your faction be some kind of university/center of knowledge? A League of Merchants? An order of warriors fighting for good and virtue? A guild of thieves and spies? A new church?

 

I don't know. I think there's potential in there.

Edited by Fooine
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At first sight, I can see that it makes the stronghold itself sound a bit more exciting if you turn it into a city, but at the same time it makes the big city sound less exciting, because you can't build a city in-game with the same architectural variety and lore that you can get from an existing city that might have stood on that site for thousands of years.

 

Also, if your stronghold is a city then there's going to be a temptation to turn that element into a city management game, which I would absolutely hate.

 

 

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City-building mini-game interwoven to the central plot? Please no. Taste differs and don't expect some people to like a specific game simply because you like it. Likewise, I don't have any problem if some people like city-building game enjoy it as an option.

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Keep the stronghold seperate. An idea could be that the stronghold is near a city and influences NPC interaction with your character as lord of the local stronghold but keep them seperate.

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This concept could work easily and be engaging. I've heard the 2nd city is going to be one of the Vilian(sp?) city states. You get there and its in the midst of a civil war. Questline to end civil war, through conquest, diplomacy, espionage, etc. depending on playstyle. At the end you are given the opportunity to take the role of the ruler of the city-state. If you decline, no problem, city goes on without you. If you accept, City is now your stronghold. You now get to make decisions on the rebuilding of the city from the war, granting licenses to the merchants of your choice, dedicating new temples, re-establishing the city guard, establishing wizards/war colleges, etc. Establish that the term as Lord or Mayor or Doge or whatever is a limited term and you have reason for not being the ruler of the city in expansions/sequels.

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A Stronghold in a big city is an unlikely although maybe in a sequel, but a small village is possible and more realistic.

 

As far as strongholds that cube item in Planescape Torment was kind of like a stronghold you could take with you that had its own randomized dungeon.

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Great ideas, folks. I really love reading and reflecting on them. I do know, by and far, their would likely be more people opposed to the idea than for it, but I figured I'd throw it out there anyways, and see what happens. I'm fairly happy with the results, actually.

 

And my hat is off to Fooine and Oerwinde in particular.


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If a stronghold was integrated into a city, I think it would make a lot more sense if it was control of a significant building (or set of buildings) IN the city rather than the city itself.

 

For example, the possibility could exist to take control of a well known (and well supplied) library in town (regardless of your class). The library can then provide some sort of research/spellcaster themed alternative option to any circumstances that comes up in the game plot -- without otherwise being a required option.

 

If they did something like that though, they'd have to limit things.

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I would rather grow a small hamlet with a fortress nearby into a small city than be given lordship over a large already-existing city. The potential for development is greater when the framework for the structure of the area (Do we build a temple to the god of Healing and Knowledge or the goddess of Murder and Darkness?).

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I think while it sounds interesting to build *part* of a big city, like a district, building an actual city of the proportions we want in this "2nd big city" is not in the interests of Obsidian. For it to be valuable at all, it would take a variety of potential structures. The city would have to be structurally variant, at least as much as a Total War city circa Rome Total War.


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An Athkatla sized metropolis springing up out of nothing around our stronghold in a couple of months because we successfully run a few errands or whatever would be silly. Big city 2 should be established and have history.

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I'd love to see two big cities... One which is on the surface, and the other, which is in equivalent of Underdark, if there is such a place in this realm. The BIG dungeon, could be on of the routes, that connects two "worlds", but not the only one.

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4) The city is a psychic projection of all your past lives. It doesn't exist in a material sense, and all its inhabitants are you (from previous (and perhaps future?) lives). It grows via meditation (represented by quests), and since it's all in your mind it bypasses the contradictions of growing a city overnight. (What can I say, I'm a solipsist, remember?)

 

This is an absolutely amazing idea...and a great way to tie into the persistent souls of the world as well. I'm not sure I'd want this to be the "second big city" but I would LOVE to see this be how the "city" of your stronghold develops - either separate from or (better) in addition to the physical development of the stronghold itself. Could even have upgrades to the stronghold involve "memories" which cause the soul-city to expand as well, thus further adding additional things to do with each stronghold upgrade (ie: not just have stronghold upgrades as a result of having done things, but also have them be the key to unlocking further things to do, in a continuous cycle).

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"If we are alone in the universe, it sure seems like an awful waste of space"

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Although I would love to have the fortress have some small city-like features ... I really want the two big cities and all the quests that could go with that ... depending on their proximity and composition we could end up with competing guilds ... warring city states ... all kinds of good things that aren't possible with only one big city ... I would love to see our fortress turn into a smaller city though (if we invested the time and money to develop it ;) )


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It sounds good building your own city. Start with Fortified castle and further develop it as you wish. This is illustration of Kings Landing from GoT. Basically you start more or less with Red Keep structure, develop that and settlement starts sprawling around that. But something like that might take years. Maybe we can have option of conquering the second city? Have a puppet ruler do our bidding and continue developing our stronghold. Maybe quick stronghold growth can be explained by migrations, etc.

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I think it would be interesting if the stronghold was under the purview of the mega city, and as such you were able to become a city councilor and have influence regarding certain "laws" and other things regarding the city.

 

That could be an interesting dynamic and alternative. I would not like it to be within the city either, so this is a nice middle ground I think.

 

It could be a neat 2 way street, eg, You are a council member, and also, with a stronghold are tasked with coming to the aid of the city 'prelate' or whatever, if called upon.

 

The city is attacked by XYZ, and you can go to his aid, send some 'troops', ignore it, etc, and receive the consequences, good or bad. As a council member, vote for less or more taxes, perhaps bribing other council members. Being established as a power, next to much older houses, they get angry and try to bully/bribe/shun you, etc.

 

Lot's of possibilities :)

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