The "Unofficial" P.E. Relationship/Romance thread

[CrazyPea]

Relationships are at the heart of the human psyche and all fiction, including narrative driven rpgs, deal with the subject on one level or another - Even (and Especially) Planescape: Torment. This doesn't take resources/writing way from the rest of the game, because, from the narrative point of view, it IS the game. Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. If this wasn't the case, Romeo and Juliet would had vanished into obscurity long ago. From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create. Or are the vocal people on this board simply interested in the grinding of leveling and combat? In which case, why play a narrative driven rpg in the first place?

 

As for diversity and equality: Why should romance options only be available to straight people? Believe it, or not, plenty of players aren't actually straight. Or do you believe (this is an open question, not aimed anyone specific), that THEY should get THEIR own game and stop spoiling OURS? If so, welcome to being prejudiced.

 

Why should every game have romances? Does every film or book have romances? would film like The Treasure of Sierra Madre get any better if we would add romances into it? What about 2001: A Space Odyssey (both book and film), and what about The Thing by John Carpenter?

 

Would it make games like Ultima 4-7 any better if companions of Avatar would be romanceable? Would it add anything to the story of Ultima 5 which is about oppression, moral absolutes and corruption of men (and women)? or Ultima 6 which is about racist prejudices and co-existance, and consequences of what you have done in the previous games?

 

Does your whole life revolve around romantic relationships? if not, why should it in games?

 

There are so many potential stories what are possible in Project Eternity without including romances.

 

Did you read the lines:

 

Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. ... From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create.

 

The examples I gave didn't have anykind romance at all, and all of those are -very- highly regarded as films and/or books. 2001: A Space Odyssey was sixth in the Sight & Sound poll, which is held every ten years for film makers and film critics.

 

My point was that not every RPG should have romances, so why this specific game should?

 

Sorry, you posted a reply when |I was editing mine See the the edited post, lol

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying every relationship in the game has to be romantic. What I am saying is that relationships drive the narrative and that romantic relationships have can drive the the narrative too. You mentioned 3 movies in your post - for those three, I give you thousands that do include romantic relationships and are better for it - everything from Casablanca, the 39 steps (hitch**** original), to The Empire strikes back (... well,,, apart from the whole brother/sister kiss - ewww), The dark Knight (the dilema of bats chosing between his love and Harvey dent). I could list many more...

 

Edited October 19, 2012 by CrazyPea

[Neverwhere]

As for diversity and equality: Why should romance options only be available to straight people? Believe it, or not, plenty of players aren't actually straight. Or do you believe (this is an open question, not aimed anyone specific), that THEY should get THEIR own game and stop spoiling OURS? If so, welcome to being prejudiced.

 

Some trolls aside, I don't think many people would make the argument that romance options should be straight-only. What people rightfully oppose is the Bioware approach of "spreading the love equally", which leads to romance becoming a minigame with very limited real implications for the game's plot. If it is included at all, romance should serve the plot and not be a game apart from the real game.

 

This is not an issue of entitlement, but an issue of the work's integrity - just like noone's entitled to a gay version of John Milius' Conan the Barbarian, or to an alcohol- and drug-free version of TC Boyle's novels. If that means that some players' demand is not served, then so be it.

[Living One]

Why should every game have romances? Does every film or book have romances? would film like The Treasure of Sierra Madre get any better if we would add romances into it? What about 2001: A Space Odyssey (both book and film), and what about The Thing by John Carpenter?

 

Would it make Citizen Kane or Star Wars any better if they had romances? Oh.. wait they did.

No not every movie or game needs to have them and the inclusion doesn't automatically make them better.

Not every movie has swordfighting either and that doesn't make them bad movies.

 

But hey, if we go and look up a list of 100 best films of all time, would you guess how many of those would,

and how many would not have romance in there? Not necessarily as the central theme, but in there anyway. My guess is that most would.

Don't try to twist the argument:people against romances are arguing against the tipycal PC-NPC romance.Noone's arguing against stuff like Christine-Veronica,etc

[CrazyPea]

As for diversity and equality: Why should romance options only be available to straight people? Believe it, or not, plenty of players aren't actually straight. Or do you believe (this is an open question, not aimed anyone specific), that THEY should get THEIR own game and stop spoiling OURS? If so, welcome to being prejudiced.

 

Some trolls aside, I don't think many people would make the argument that romance options should be straight-only. What people rightfully oppose is the Bioware approach of "spreading the love equally", which leads to romance becoming a minigame with very limited real implications for the game's plot. If it is included at all, romance should serve the plot and not be a game apart from the real game.

 

This is not an issue of entitlement, but an issue of the work's integrity - just like noone's entitled to a gay version of John Milius' Conan the Barbarian, or to an alcohol- and drug-free version of TC Boyle's novels. If that means that some players' demand is not served, then so be it.

 

I don't think it is an issue of entitlement, more of what creates the best experience for an individual player. You used movies as your example - movies are meant to be watched and not played like a computer game - something which is, arguably, a more emersive experience

Edited October 19, 2012 by CrazyPea

[jarpie]

Relationships are at the heart of the human psyche and all fiction, including narrative driven rpgs, deal with the subject on one level or another - Even (and Especially) Planescape: Torment. This doesn't take resources/writing way from the rest of the game, because, from the narrative point of view, it IS the game. Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. If this wasn't the case, Romeo and Juliet would had vanished into obscurity long ago. From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create. Or are the vocal people on this board simply interested in the grinding of leveling and combat? In which case, why play a narrative driven rpg in the first place?

 

As for diversity and equality: Why should romance options only be available to straight people? Believe it, or not, plenty of players aren't actually straight. Or do you believe (this is an open question, not aimed anyone specific), that THEY should get THEIR own game and stop spoiling OURS? If so, welcome to being prejudiced.

 

Why should every game have romances? Does every film or book have romances? would film like The Treasure of Sierra Madre get any better if we would add romances into it? What about 2001: A Space Odyssey (both book and film), and what about The Thing by John Carpenter?

 

Would it make games like Ultima 4-7 any better if companions of Avatar would be romanceable? Would it add anything to the story of Ultima 5 which is about oppression, moral absolutes and corruption of men (and women)? or Ultima 6 which is about racist prejudices and co-existance, and consequences of what you have done in the previous games?

 

Does your whole life revolve around romantic relationships? if not, why should it in games?

 

There are so many potential stories what are possible in Project Eternity without including romances.

 

Did you read the lines:

 

Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. ... From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create.

 

I'm not saying every relationshi[ in the game has to be romantic. What I am saying is that relationships drive the narrative and that romantic relationships have can drive the the narrative too. You mentioned 3 movies in your post - for those three, I gave you thousands that do include romantic relationships and are better for it - everything from Casablanca, the 39 steps (hitch**** original), to The Empire strikes back (... well,,, apart from the whole brother/sister kiss - ewww), The dark Knight (the dilema of bats chosing between his love and Harvey dent). I could list many more...

 

My point still very much stands that NOT EVERY FILM, BOOK OR GAME HAVE ROMANCES SO WHY SHOULD THIS HAVE.

 

We dont even know what the story will be, and I trust Obsidian's devs enough to let them make game they want, and not to include "Bioawre-romances", my problem is with the crowd who demands that they include romances no matter what.

 

What if they make a story which doesn't support romance at all? should they just throw romances into it just because SOME people demands it even if it doesnt suit the main character?

[HereticSaint]

Relationships are at the heart of the human psyche and all fiction, including narrative driven rpgs, deal with the subject on one level or another - Even (and Especially) Planescape: Torment. This doesn't take resources/writing way from the rest of the game, because, from the narrative point of view, it IS the game. Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. If this wasn't the case, Romeo and Juliet would had vanished into obscurity long ago. From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create. Or are the vocal people on this board simply interested in the grinding of leveling and combat? In which case, why play a narrative driven rpg in the first place?

 

As for diversity and equality: Why should romance options only be available to straight people? Believe it, or not, plenty of players aren't actually straight. Or do you believe (this is an open question, not aimed anyone specific), that THEY should get THEIR own game and stop spoiling OURS? If so, welcome to being prejudiced.

 

Why should every game have romances? Does every film or book have romances? would film like The Treasure of Sierra Madre get any better if we would add romances into it? What about 2001: A Space Odyssey (both book and film), and what about The Thing by John Carpenter?

 

Would it make games like Ultima 4-7 any better if companions of Avatar would be romanceable? Would it add anything to the story of Ultima 5 which is about oppression, moral absolutes and corruption of men (and women)? or Ultima 6 which is about racist prejudices and co-existance, and consequences of what you have done in the previous games?

 

Does your whole life revolve around romantic relationships? if not, why should it in games?

 

There are so many potential stories what are possible in Project Eternity without including romances.

 

Did you read the lines:

 

Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. ... From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create.

 

The examples I gave didn't have anykind romance at all, and all of those are -very- highly regarded as films and/or books. 2001: A Space Odyssey was sixth in the Sight & Sound poll, which is held every ten years for film makers and film critics.

 

My point was that not every RPG should have romances, so why this specific game should?

 

Very few (no one) is saying that this game -has- to have romances to be good. They are saying stop going, 'It must not have romances to be good'.

 

So to reiterate, we (meaning the people of similar opinion to me, which isn't necessarily everyone but quite a few if not most of the people who enjoy romance options) are saying stop stonewalling it and leave it for the developers to decide.

 

If they have well written, homosexual romances only, great! If they focus on an epic bromance instead, great! If they make me have sex with a dragonand produce half dragon, half man, half awesome hybrids, great! But stop saying they have to not have it. I think I've been pretty open that I don't think they have to have it, and I really mean it, but I think they should use their judgement. (And if I've said otherwise it's likely been me responding to just as extreme comments with the opposite opinion, which I apologize for).

[HereticSaint]

Why should every game have romances? Does every film or book have romances? would film like The Treasure of Sierra Madre get any better if we would add romances into it? What about 2001: A Space Odyssey (both book and film), and what about The Thing by John Carpenter?

 

Would it make Citizen Kane or Star Wars any better if they had romances? Oh.. wait they did.

No not every movie or game needs to have them and the inclusion doesn't automatically make them better.

Not every movie has swordfighting either and that doesn't make them bad movies.

 

But hey, if we go and look up a list of 100 best films of all time, would you guess how many of those would,

and how many would not have romance in there? Not necessarily as the central theme, but in there anyway. My guess is that most would.

Don't try to twist the argument:people against romances are arguing against the tipycal PC-NPC romance.Noone's arguing against stuff like Christine-Veronica,etc

 

Can you explain to me, in a well thought out, well typed out post that is clear and concise what constitutes a, 'typical PC-NPC romance'.

 

Don't leave anything out.

[jarpie]

Relationships are at the heart of the human psyche and all fiction, including narrative driven rpgs, deal with the subject on one level or another - Even (and Especially) Planescape: Torment. This doesn't take resources/writing way from the rest of the game, because, from the narrative point of view, it IS the game. Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. If this wasn't the case, Romeo and Juliet would had vanished into obscurity long ago. From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create. Or are the vocal people on this board simply interested in the grinding of leveling and combat? In which case, why play a narrative driven rpg in the first place?

 

As for diversity and equality: Why should romance options only be available to straight people? Believe it, or not, plenty of players aren't actually straight. Or do you believe (this is an open question, not aimed anyone specific), that THEY should get THEIR own game and stop spoiling OURS? If so, welcome to being prejudiced.

 

Why should every game have romances? Does every film or book have romances? would film like The Treasure of Sierra Madre get any better if we would add romances into it? What about 2001: A Space Odyssey (both book and film), and what about The Thing by John Carpenter?

 

Would it make games like Ultima 4-7 any better if companions of Avatar would be romanceable? Would it add anything to the story of Ultima 5 which is about oppression, moral absolutes and corruption of men (and women)? or Ultima 6 which is about racist prejudices and co-existance, and consequences of what you have done in the previous games?

 

Does your whole life revolve around romantic relationships? if not, why should it in games?

 

There are so many potential stories what are possible in Project Eternity without including romances.

 

Did you read the lines:

 

Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. ... From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create.

 

The examples I gave didn't have anykind romance at all, and all of those are -very- highly regarded as films and/or books. 2001: A Space Odyssey was sixth in the Sight & Sound poll, which is held every ten years for film makers and film critics.

 

My point was that not every RPG should have romances, so why this specific game should?

 

Very few (no one) is saying that this game -has- to have romances to be good. They are saying stop going, 'It must not have romances to be good'.

 

So to reiterate, we (meaning the people of similar opinion to me, which isn't necessarily everyone but quite a few if not most of the people who enjoy romance options) are saying stop stonewalling it and leave it for the developers to decide.

 

If they have well written, homosexual romances only, great! If they focus on an epic bromance instead, great! If they make me have sex with a dragonand produce half dragon, half man, half awesome hybrids, great! But stop saying they have to not have it. I think I've been pretty open that I don't think they have to have it, and I really mean it, but I think they should use their judgement. (And if I've said otherwise it's likely been me responding to just as extreme comments with the opposite opinion, which I apologize for).

 

Why people keep bringing it up then and opening topics with "Plz include romances!", and not leave the topic alone? CrazyPea's first posting to this thread was clearly written with the mindset that Project Eternity has romances by-default even though devs haven't said will it or wont it.

[qloher]

My point still very much stands that NOT EVERY FILM, BOOK OR GAME HAVE ROMANCES SO WHY SHOULD THIS HAVE.

Not every film, book or game do not have romances, so why should this have them not?

Edited October 19, 2012 by qloher

[kenup]

Yeah but you see that's the point. Trying to appease to every demographic doesn't make anything more mature or deeper. It takes a feeling like romantic love and turns it into choose your own adventure minigame. Imagine if every movie had alternatives about every romantic relationship in them.

 

But an rpg is not a movie. It is essentially a "chooce your own adventure" and if you want to break apart aspects of it, they're essentially minigames.

Exploration minigame, puzzle minigame, combat minigame, discussion minigame, stronghold minigame, romance minigame.

 

I don't want an rpg where this glorious auteur has thought up the awesome plot you take upon, your romantic love story and the choices you make,

and then railroads you all the way down until the most awesome ending.

 

That can work just fine in a shooter or semi-rpg like titan quest or IWD. But if it's an RPG I want to play a role and make the choices.

So where is the maturity in a romance minigame? Where is the depth?

 

Nobody "railroads" you. Use that word in the appropriate forums, BSN and bethesda's forums, or for the appropriate games and their developers.

 

You are an active participant in the narrative not its god. All the choices have to make sense within the narrative.

Edited October 19, 2012 by kenup

[Neverwhere]

I don't think it is an issue of entitlement, more of what creates the best experience for an individual player. You used movies as your example - movies are meant to be watched and not played like a computer game - something which is, arguably, a more emersive experience

 

If immersion is in point, then a good plot beats poorly integrated romance options any day.

 

Companies that do include gay romance options normally don't do it out of a moral impetus, but because there is money in doing it. Which is prefectly fine and legitimate. The real issue, which is pretty evident when looking e.g. at gay romance options in Bioware games, is that these companies at the same time go to great lengths to "protect" the straight player by ringfencing the romance option from the rest of the game. After all, straight players shouldn't feel like they are missing out on something because they didn't pick the gay romance option. And vice versa. This leads to romance becoming a rather meaningless minigame which contributes nothing to immersion.

[HereticSaint]

Relationships are at the heart of the human psyche and all fiction, including narrative driven rpgs, deal with the subject on one level or another - Even (and Especially) Planescape: Torment. This doesn't take resources/writing way from the rest of the game, because, from the narrative point of view, it IS the game. Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. If this wasn't the case, Romeo and Juliet would had vanished into obscurity long ago. From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create. Or are the vocal people on this board simply interested in the grinding of leveling and combat? In which case, why play a narrative driven rpg in the first place?

 

As for diversity and equality: Why should romance options only be available to straight people? Believe it, or not, plenty of players aren't actually straight. Or do you believe (this is an open question, not aimed anyone specific), that THEY should get THEIR own game and stop spoiling OURS? If so, welcome to being prejudiced.

 

Why should every game have romances? Does every film or book have romances? would film like The Treasure of Sierra Madre get any better if we would add romances into it? What about 2001: A Space Odyssey (both book and film), and what about The Thing by John Carpenter?

 

Would it make games like Ultima 4-7 any better if companions of Avatar would be romanceable? Would it add anything to the story of Ultima 5 which is about oppression, moral absolutes and corruption of men (and women)? or Ultima 6 which is about racist prejudices and co-existance, and consequences of what you have done in the previous games?

 

Does your whole life revolve around romantic relationships? if not, why should it in games?

 

There are so many potential stories what are possible in Project Eternity without including romances.

 

Did you read the lines:

 

Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. ... From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create.

 

The examples I gave didn't have anykind romance at all, and all of those are -very- highly regarded as films and/or books. 2001: A Space Odyssey was sixth in the Sight & Sound poll, which is held every ten years for film makers and film critics.

 

My point was that not every RPG should have romances, so why this specific game should?

 

Very few (no one) is saying that this game -has- to have romances to be good. They are saying stop going, 'It must not have romances to be good'.

 

So to reiterate, we (meaning the people of similar opinion to me, which isn't necessarily everyone but quite a few if not most of the people who enjoy romance options) are saying stop stonewalling it and leave it for the developers to decide.

 

If they have well written, homosexual romances only, great! If they focus on an epic bromance instead, great! If they make me have sex with a dragonand produce half dragon, half man, half awesome hybrids, great! But stop saying they have to not have it. I think I've been pretty open that I don't think they have to have it, and I really mean it, but I think they should use their judgement. (And if I've said otherwise it's likely been me responding to just as extreme comments with the opposite opinion, which I apologize for).

 

Why people keep bringing it up then and opening topics with "Plz include romances!", and not leave the topic alone? CrazyPea's first posting to this thread was clearly written with the mindset that Project Eternity has romances by-default even though devs haven't said will it or wont it.

 

The reason people who enjoy the possiblities of romance are posting are because the people who oppose them still are. Likely meaning it won't change until (if) something is announced.

 

As for your other point, lots of movies, shows, games, etc, don't have something, that doesn't necessarily mean PE should or should not have that.

[grotbag]

the 39 steps (hitch**** original),

 

This a funny example, since the much-loved original novel had no romance in it at all; Hitch was forced to come up with some rather silly plot contrivances (that whole business with the handcuffs, for example) in order to accommodate Madeleine Carroll as a love interest. But again, I think we did already have this exact debate, with most of the same points being made, just a few pages back.

[Gecimen]

Relationships are at the heart of the human psyche and all fiction, including narrative driven rpgs, deal with the subject on one level or another - Even (and Especially) Planescape: Torment. This doesn't take resources/writing way from the rest of the game, because, from the narrative point of view, it IS the game. Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. If this wasn't the case, Romeo and Juliet would had vanished into obscurity long ago. From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create. Or are the vocal people on this board simply interested in the grinding of leveling and combat? In which case, why play a narrative driven rpg in the first place?

 

As for diversity and equality: Why should romance options only be available to straight people? Believe it, or not, plenty of players aren't actually straight. Or do you believe (this is an open question, not aimed anyone specific), that THEY should get THEIR own game and stop spoiling OURS? If so, welcome to being prejudiced.

 

Why should every game have romances? Does every film or book have romances? would film like The Treasure of Sierra Madre get any better if we would add romances into it? What about 2001: A Space Odyssey (both book and film), and what about The Thing by John Carpenter?

 

Would it make games like Ultima 4-7 any better if companions of Avatar would be romanceable? Would it add anything to the story of Ultima 5 which is about oppression, moral absolutes and corruption of men (and women)? or Ultima 6 which is about racist prejudices and co-existance, and consequences of what you have done in the previous games?

 

Does your whole life revolve around romantic relationships? if not, why should it in games?

 

There are so many potential stories what are possible in Project Eternity without including romances.

 

Did you read the lines:

 

Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. ... From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create.

 

I'm not saying every relationshi[ in the game has to be romantic. What I am saying is that relationships drive the narrative and that romantic relationships have can drive the the narrative too. You mentioned 3 movies in your post - for those three, I gave you thousands that do include romantic relationships and are better for it - everything from Casablanca, the 39 steps (hitch**** original), to The Empire strikes back (... well,,, apart from the whole brother/sister kiss - ewww), The dark Knight (the dilema of bats chosing between his love and Harvey dent). I could list many more...

 

My point still very much stands that NOT EVERY FILM, BOOK OR GAME HAVE ROMANCES SO WHY SHOULD THIS HAVE.

 

We dont even know what the story will be, and I trust Obsidian's devs enough to let them make game they want, and not to include "Bioawre-romances", my problem is with the crowd who demands that they include romances no matter what.

 

What if they make a story which doesn't support romance at all? should they just throw romances into it just because SOME people demands it even if it doesnt suit the main character?

 

Uhh another day and you again Another person replied you above and I wont repeat it but you're ignoring this, most people aren't asking for Bioware romances or even the standart PC-Comp romances. FFS I'd even like to see if one of my comps fell in love with the antagonist (this is just an example, dont push).

[Meshugger]

So, have any of the forum members found each other and experienced true love? or the bad touch?

 

This is what this thread is about, right? (Cyberdating)

[HereticSaint]

Yeah but you see that's the point. Trying to appease to every demographic doesn't make anything more mature or deeper. It takes a feeling like romantic love and turns it into choose your own adventure minigame. Imagine if every movie had alternatives about every romantic relationship in them.

 

But an rpg is not a movie. It is essentially a "chooce your own adventure" and if you want to break apart aspects of it, they're essentially minigames.

Exploration minigame, puzzle minigame, combat minigame, discussion minigame, stronghold minigame, romance minigame.

 

I don't want an rpg where this glorious auteur has thought up the awesome plot you take upon, your romantic love story and the choices you make,

and then railroads you all the way down until the most awesome ending.

 

That can work just fine in a shooter or semi-rpg like titan quest or IWD. But if it's an RPG I want to play a role and make the choices.

So where is the maturity in a romance minigame? Where is the depth?

 

Nobody "railroads" you. Use that word in the appropriate forums, BSN and bethesda's forums,

or for the appropriate games and their developers.

 

You are an active participant in the narrative not its god. All the choices have to make sense within the narrative.

 

It's funny, because you post vehemently about how romances shouldn't be in the game, then claim those who oppose you are, "wanting to be God".

 

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Rahelron]

 

My point still very much stands that NOT EVERY FILM, BOOK OR GAME HAVE ROMANCES SO WHY SHOULD THIS HAVE.

 

We dont even know what the story will be, and I trust Obsidian's devs enough to let them make game they want, and not to include "Bioawre-romances", my problem is with the crowd who demands that they include romances no matter what.

 

What if they make a story which doesn't support romance at all? should they just throw romances into it just because SOME people demands it even if it doesnt suit the main character?

 

Because this is not a book.

I'm sick of railroaded stories in videogames. If Project Eternity is going to be like that then the developers should warn us. At least I would stop worrying about this game and I'd look somewhere else for a real role playing experience.

Since this is an RPG I want to be in charge of what my character does and feels. I want to be able to decide if a love story fits the character I'm playing or not, exactly like I want to be able to decide if I'm good or bad, chaotic or lawful, altruistic or individualist etc.

 

Let's say that in the beginning of the story my character is happily married. The plt starts and after a painful event my wife gets killed. I want to have the chance to decide if my character finds the strength to move on (and finds another one to love) or keeps mourning his true love forever. This is roleplaying, not some ready-made experience you have to swallow as it is or screw off.

[Crusty]

The arguments here keep going around in circles.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGNiXGX2nLU

 

This thread in a nutshell.

[CrazyPea]

Relationships are at the heart of the human psyche and all fiction, including narrative driven rpgs, deal with the subject on one level or another - Even (and Especially) Planescape: Torment. This doesn't take resources/writing way from the rest of the game, because, from the narrative point of view, it IS the game. Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. If this wasn't the case, Romeo and Juliet would had vanished into obscurity long ago. From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create. Or are the vocal people on this board simply interested in the grinding of leveling and combat? In which case, why play a narrative driven rpg in the first place?

 

As for diversity and equality: Why should romance options only be available to straight people? Believe it, or not, plenty of players aren't actually straight. Or do you believe (this is an open question, not aimed anyone specific), that THEY should get THEIR own game and stop spoiling OURS? If so, welcome to being prejudiced.

 

Why should every game have romances? Does every film or book have romances? would film like The Treasure of Sierra Madre get any better if we would add romances into it? What about 2001: A Space Odyssey (both book and film), and what about The Thing by John Carpenter?

 

Would it make games like Ultima 4-7 any better if companions of Avatar would be romanceable? Would it add anything to the story of Ultima 5 which is about oppression, moral absolutes and corruption of men (and women)? or Ultima 6 which is about racist prejudices and co-existance, and consequences of what you have done in the previous games?

 

Does your whole life revolve around romantic relationships? if not, why should it in games?

 

There are so many potential stories what are possible in Project Eternity without including romances.

 

Did you read the lines:

 

Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. ... From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create.

 

I'm not saying every relationshi[ in the game has to be romantic. What I am saying is that relationships drive the narrative and that romantic relationships have can drive the the narrative too. You mentioned 3 movies in your post - for those three, I gave you thousands that do include romantic relationships and are better for it - everything from Casablanca, the 39 steps (hitch**** original), to The Empire strikes back (... well,,, apart from the whole brother/sister kiss - ewww), The dark Knight (the dilema of bats chosing between his love and Harvey dent). I could list many more...

 

My point still very much stands that NOT EVERY FILM, BOOK OR GAME HAVE ROMANCES SO WHY SHOULD THIS HAVE.

 

We dont even know what the story will be, and I trust Obsidian's devs enough to let them make game they want, and not to include "Bioawre-romances", my problem is with the crowd who demands that they include romances no matter what.

 

What if they make a story which doesn't support romance at all? should they just throw romances into it just because SOME people demands it even if it doesnt suit the main character?

 

If it makes a more emersive, enjoyable experience, why shouldn't it? This is a role-playing game, emphasis on ROLE. The player 'lives' the life of their character. Life generally contains romance and realtionships, so we want our game character to experience those facets of life. Why should this game in particular? Because is a narrative driven game and narratives are driven by the relationships between people. Yes, not every game/book/movie, etc has romance, but it tends to be the exception rather than the norm, the reason being that romances usually enhance the narrative (see the examples I've already given).

 

 

And WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING?

[Justinian]

I think an interesting way to frame same-sex relationships (or any relationships) in the game would be to factor in the cultures and influences of the game world. Make it part of the story and setting as well as about the characters themselves.

 

What impact would certain beliefs and external cultural influences have? What hardships and trials of acceptance would need to be overcome? Conversly, what openess and sexual freedoms may there be? How does the worldview and reality of souls affect all this?

 

And I totally agree with this:

If it makes a more emersive, enjoyable experience, why shouldn't it? This is a role-playing game, emphasis on ROLE. The player 'lives' the life of their character. Life generally contains romance and realtionships, so we want our game character to experience those facets of life. Why should this game in particular? Because is a narrative driven game and narratives are driven by the relationships between people. Yes, not every game/book/movie, etc has romance, but it tends to be the exception rather than the norm, the reason being that romances usually enhance the narrative (see the examples I've already given).

 

It really isn't hard to argue why such a significant part of our humanity and our interaction with others should be explored in a story driven, party based RPG.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Justinian

[CrazyPea]

So, have any of the forum members found each other and experienced true love? or the bad touch?

 

This is what this thread is about, right? (Cyberdating)

 

Sorry, I'm already engaged

[Jasede]

Edit: Let me delete posts, damnit.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Jasede

[Jasede]

Relationships are at the heart of the human psyche and all fiction, including narrative driven rpgs, deal with the subject on one level or another - Even (and Especially) Planescape: Torment. This doesn't take resources/writing way from the rest of the game, because, from the narrative point of view, it IS the game. Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. If this wasn't the case, Romeo and Juliet would had vanished into obscurity long ago. From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create. Or are the vocal people on this board simply interested in the grinding of leveling and combat? In which case, why play a narrative driven rpg in the first place?

 

As for diversity and equality: Why should romance options only be available to straight people? Believe it, or not, plenty of players aren't actually straight. Or do you believe (this is an open question, not aimed anyone specific), that THEY should get THEIR own game and stop spoiling OURS? If so, welcome to being prejudiced.

 

Why should every game have romances? Does every film or book have romances? would film like The Treasure of Sierra Madre get any better if we would add romances into it? What about 2001: A Space Odyssey (both book and film), and what about The Thing by John Carpenter?

 

Would it make games like Ultima 4-7 any better if companions of Avatar would be romanceable? Would it add anything to the story of Ultima 5 which is about oppression, moral absolutes and corruption of men (and women)? or Ultima 6 which is about racist prejudices and co-existance, and consequences of what you have done in the previous games?

 

Does your whole life revolve around romantic relationships? if not, why should it in games?

 

There are so many potential stories what are possible in Project Eternity without including romances.

 

Did you read the lines:

 

Now, not every relationship needs to be romantic, but romances are a type of relationship. And since a huge chunk of our psyche is devoted to attracting a suitable mate, it can be a powerful emotive draw; If it's handled well, a romance can keep the reader, viewer or (dare I say it) gamer on the edge of their seats. ... From a dramatic point of view, romances are a gold mine for creating obstacles, challenges and rationales for characters - Everything that a good (or even great) role-playing game would seek to create.

 

I'm not saying every relationshi[ in the game has to be romantic. What I am saying is that relationships drive the narrative and that romantic relationships have can drive the the narrative too. You mentioned 3 movies in your post - for those three, I gave you thousands that do include romantic relationships and are better for it - everything from Casablanca, the 39 steps (hitch**** original), to The Empire strikes back (... well,,, apart from the whole brother/sister kiss - ewww), The dark Knight (the dilema of bats chosing between his love and Harvey dent). I could list many more...

 

My point still very much stands that NOT EVERY FILM, BOOK OR GAME HAVE ROMANCES SO WHY SHOULD THIS HAVE.

 

We dont even know what the story will be, and I trust Obsidian's devs enough to let them make game they want, and not to include "Bioawre-romances", my problem is with the crowd who demands that they include romances no matter what.

 

What if they make a story which doesn't support romance at all? should they just throw romances into it just because SOME people demands it even if it doesnt suit the main character?

 

If it makes a more emersive, enjoyable experience, why shouldn't it? This is a role-playing game, emphasis on ROLE. The player 'lives' the life of their character. Life generally contains romance and realtionships, so we want our game character to experience those facets of life. Why should this game in particular? Because is a narrative driven game and narratives are driven by the relationships between people. Yes, not every game/book/movie, etc has romance, but it tends to be the exception rather than the norm, the reason being that romances usually enhance the narrative (see the examples I've already given).

 

 

And WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING?

Because he's been repeating the same argument over and over without it ever being seriously challenged so he therefore correctly assumes you must be deaf.

I read your post. You don't want a CRPG - you want a Japanese life sim. This isn't that kind of game. RPGs aren't about "experiencing facets of life". They are and have always been about killing ****, experiencing a cool story, exploring a new world and making numbers go up. They're about making meaningful choices, not petty life-simulation.

[kenup]

Yeah but you see that's the point. Trying to appease to every demographic doesn't make anything more mature or deeper. It takes a feeling like romantic love and turns it into choose your own adventure minigame. Imagine if every movie had alternatives about every romantic relationship in them.

 

But an rpg is not a movie. It is essentially a "chooce your own adventure" and if you want to break apart aspects of it, they're essentially minigames.

Exploration minigame, puzzle minigame, combat minigame, discussion minigame, stronghold minigame, romance minigame.

 

I don't want an rpg where this glorious auteur has thought up the awesome plot you take upon, your romantic love story and the choices you make,

and then railroads you all the way down until the most awesome ending.

 

That can work just fine in a shooter or semi-rpg like titan quest or IWD. But if it's an RPG I want to play a role and make the choices.

So where is the maturity in a romance minigame? Where is the depth?

 

Nobody "railroads" you. Use that word in the appropriate forums, BSN and bethesda's forums,

or for the appropriate games and their developers.

 

You are an active participant in the narrative not its god. All the choices have to make sense within the narrative.

 

It's funny, because you post vehemently about how romances shouldn't be in the game, then claim those who oppose you are, "wanting to be God".

 

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Great argument! Now try a real one and not something that is ad hominem. I'm not the narrative's god, but romance(and any other literary device) has to somehow be used by the plot, cause romance isn't just a minigame. It, like any other relationship(friendship, rivalry etc), should affect the plot through character progression. If that doesn't affect the plot, then it's wasted space, the main(and possibly the other person) remain static bricks. Romance in stories isn't combat that can be shown through mechanics and graphics, it's a plot device.

[jarpie]

My point still very much stands that NOT EVERY FILM, BOOK OR GAME HAVE ROMANCES SO WHY SHOULD THIS HAVE.

 

We dont even know what the story will be, and I trust Obsidian's devs enough to let them make game they want, and not to include "Bioawre-romances", my problem is with the crowd who demands that they include romances no matter what.

 

What if they make a story which doesn't support romance at all? should they just throw romances into it just because SOME people demands it even if it doesnt suit the main character?

 

Because this is not a book.

I'm sick of railroaded stories in videogames. If Project Eternity is going to be like that then the developers should warn us. At least I would stop worrying about this game and I'd look somewhere else for a real role playing experience.

Since this is an RPG I want to be in charge of what my character does and feels. I want to be able to decide if a love story fits the character I'm playing or not, exactly like I want to be able to decide if I'm good or bad, chaotic or lawful, altruistic or individualist etc.

 

Let's say that in the beginning of the story my character is happily married. The plt starts and after a painful event my wife gets killed. I want to have the chance to decide if my character finds the strength to move on (and finds another one to love) or keeps mourning his true love forever. This is roleplaying, not some ready-made experience you have to swallow as it is or screw off.

 

If you truly want to roleplay a role, you should look into RP servers in MMOs or for example, in Neverwinter Nights which has lot of such a servers where you can actually roleplay the character you want and have created.

 

The main character in singleplayer games is still character created by the writers and not a character you have created. If writer doesn't want it to have romances, there the game wont have them.