Renaissance elements vs swords and sorcery

[atn]

While I love games with renaissance elements like firearms (e.g. guns, rifles), canons, more modern architecture and atmosphere, I think one of the elements that made the RPGs of old so great (Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights) is the setting. All these games were set in the Dungeons & Dragons universe: Fearun, the Forgotten Realms, the Great Wheel (the planes of existence).

 

At that time, the D&D universe was mostly populated by "swords and sorcery" rather than "guns and canons". Which brings me to the following topic. To what extent would you like firearms and more modern weapons, architecture and cultural aspects to be present in Eternity ? What place would you like magic to take ?

 

While I understand licensing issues and other considerations may prevent this game from taking place in the D&D universe, I would like this new world to have the same balance of the aforementioned aspects as in the D&D universe (at the time of BG, PS:T, etc). I would like gunpowder and other renaissance elements to be quasi-non-existant (like in the D&D world of old).

 

What say you ?

 

EDIT: just noticed there's a poll on the inclusion of guns in the game here.

Edited October 17, 2012 by atn

[eimatshya]

My limited familiarity with the Forgotten Realms setting prevents me from making any in depth comparisons, although other posters have asserted that there are firearms in the Forgotten Realms setting (in Lantan, I believe).

 

That said, I don't have a problem with limited use of ancient firearms, like what Obsidian has indicated will be the case in P:E. By the time full plate armor came into common use, firearms were around, so I don't see anything too anachronistic about them being in the game (although as I understand it, a matchlock mechanism would be more period appropriate than the wheel locks that will be used in P:E; still, close enough in my opinion, especially in a fantasy world).

Edited October 17, 2012 by eimatshya

[Monte Carlo]

the way i see it you should just view firearms as an exotic weapin you see now and then. i don,t think they will be a big deal and that the setting will still feel demonstrably fantasy in the way you described.

th

[Larkaloke]

So long as it's interesting and seems to fit in with everything else, I'm fine with whatever role guns end up playing. I don't think the setting had much to do with how good the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale games were -- but then, I'm mostly not all that fond of the Forgotten Realms as a setting; I just am quite fond of some of the games set in that setting.

 

Also, as already pointed out, having firearms and plate armour and such around at the same time does have historical basis.

[atn]

I agree with all of you.

 

@eimatshya: yes, I am aware that there are firearms and canons on boats in the D&D setting (the island of Lantan, Kara-Tur, on pirate ships or port cities like Luskan).

 

My original point was for the game to have a fantasy feel (a la Baldur's Gate, Torment, etc.) and not a steampunk feel (as in Fallout).

 

he way i see it you should just view firearms as an exotic weapin you see now and then.

 

That would be ideal for me (and that's how I view these weapons in the Forgotten Realms).

Edited October 17, 2012 by atn

[el pinko grande]

Well, I definitely want Renaissance-inspired architecture, just because I think it looks good. But in general, I'm fine with them leaving a lot of the D&D-style sword & sorcery tropes behind. Though, guns aside I think the Forgotten Realms is probably closer to the Renaissance than the Middle Ages, anyway. The general tech level is pretty high, and the degree of political development in most of its nations is a lot higher than in Western Europe during the Middle Ages.

[atn]

Well, I definitely want Renaissance-inspired architecture, just because I think it looks good. But in general, I'm fine with them leaving a lot of the D&D-style sword & sorcery tropes behind. Though, guns aside I think the Forgotten Realms is probably closer to the Renaissance than the Middle Ages, anyway. The general tech level is pretty high, and the degree of political development in most of its nations is a lot higher than in Western Europe during the Middle Ages.

 

I agree, my point was mostly stemming from the desire to see a RPG in a fantasy setting (in the D&D sense) and a fear of seeing magic fade away and guns/steampunk aspects invading the game.

 

P.S.: I should brush up on my architecture studies...

Edited October 17, 2012 by atn

[The Guilty Party]

Mm, I don't think steampunk means what you think it means if you feel Fallout is steampunk, but yes. From all indications that I've seen, this world is low-to-mid fantasy with light technology. Not an 19th century steam-powered technomagic land.

[jivex5k]

I think when you equip your firearm the game should morph into an FPS.

[atn]

Mm, I don't think steampunk means what you think it means if you feel Fallout is steampunk, but yes. From all indications that I've seen, this world is low-to-mid fantasy with light technology. Not an 19th century steam-powered technomagic land.

 

Yeah, I used the wrong term but I think you got my point.

Edited October 17, 2012 by atn

[Piccolo]

Ideally, I would like the world to be very medieval, with only subtle technological advancement among certain cultures. I would also like patches of more weird and wonderful cultures for some of the non-human races.

 

As for magic, i'd like that to be kept fairly minimal. Same goes for monsters and other fantasy elements. I think I really appreciate that kind of stuff a lot more when it's low-key.

[Karkarov]

No problem with early black powder weapons at all. An early model pistol was woefully inaccurate past 20 yards or so (probably less), they took forever to reload, and they did not have enough stopping power to punch through the best armors of the day unless fired from VERY close range. There is a reason Crossbows were called the "Knight Killer" and not black powder rifles. Cannons actually showed up before highly effective small arms did.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Karkarov

[Infinitron]

Most traditional fantasy settings are actually culturally more similar to the Renaissance than the Middle Ages anyway (international travel and trade, large cosmopolitan cities, de-emphasis of feudalism in favor of absolute monarchy)

Edited October 17, 2012 by Infinitron

[ilhdr]

I cant' see how those elements are antagonics.

 

The humanity didn't get out of the middle ages direct to the machine gun age.

[Lysen]

Don't worry, Eternity isn't going to have Renaissance elements. Maybe a very few of them, but not much. It will be more like a traditional fantasy game.

 

The cultures of Project Eternity are in a variety of different technological states. Though some remote civilizations are still in the equivalent of Earth's Stone Age or Bronze Age, most large civilizations are in the equivalent of Earth's high or late Middle Ages. The most aggressive and powerful civilizations are in the early stages of what would be our early modern period, technologically, even if they are not culturally undergoing "Renaissance"-style changes.

 

For most large civilizations, this means that all of the core arms and armor of medieval warfare have reached a high level of development: full suits of articulated plate armor, a variety of military swords, war hammers, polearms, longbows, crossbows, and advanced siege weaponry. Architecturally, these cultures also employ technologies found in Earth's Gothic structures, allowing them to create towering vertical structures.

 

Is it Renaissance? I don't think so.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Lysen

[Coincidence]

I really don't think guns are going to be as common or powerful as everyone thinks. There aren't going to be M16's everywhere. It's going to be very archiac guns that probably are rare and have drawbacks making them on par with a melee weapon or magic.

[el pinko grande]

Most traditional fantasy settings are actually culturally more similar to the Renaissance than the Middle Ages anyway (international travel and trade, large cosmopolitan cities, de-emphasis of feudalism in favor of absolute monarchy)

 

Incidentally, I'd love to see feudalism actually dealt with in RPG. It would be a lot of fun to have a questline involving picking sides between the stereotypical overmight subject and his liege lord. Sort of a Henry the Lion versus Frederick Barbarossa scenario.

[Infinitron]

Most traditional fantasy settings are actually culturally more similar to the Renaissance than the Middle Ages anyway (international travel and trade, large cosmopolitan cities, de-emphasis of feudalism in favor of absolute monarchy)

 

Incidentally, I'd love to see feudalism actually dealt with in RPG. It would be a lot of fun to have a questline involving picking sides between the stereotypical overmight subject and his liege lord. Sort of a Henry the Lion versus Frederick Barbarossa scenario.

 

Well, Ferelden in Dragon Age was sort of feudal, but other than the Landsmeet section you never really got to interact with it. And even then not so much.

[Lysen]

Most traditional fantasy settings are actually culturally more similar to the Renaissance than the Middle Ages anyway (international travel and trade, large cosmopolitan cities, de-emphasis of feudalism in favor of absolute monarchy)

 

Incidentally, I'd love to see feudalism actually dealt with in RPG. It would be a lot of fun to have a questline involving picking sides between the stereotypical overmight subject and his liege lord. Sort of a Henry the Lion versus Frederick Barbarossa scenario.

 

Sawyer is a historian, so we can expect something like this. And we don't know much about feudalism in PE. This is a medieval society, but what if it doesn't resembles classic European feudalism? Maybe there are different nations, and some of them are more like Byzantine Empire (I so much want that!), or Arab world at its best, or Italian city-states like Genoa and Venice?

[Starglider]

Muzzle-loader loose-powder firearms are really not that big a deal in gameplay. Historically the accuracy was so bad and the reload time so long that they wouldn't be much good for a few adventurers fighting a horde of monsters. Your fighter would get off one musket or maybe two pistol shots at the start of each fight and that's it (until you spend 30 seconds stationary & out of combat reloading), it certainly wouldn't overshadow conventional weapons much less spell use.

Edited October 17, 2012 by Starglider

[el pinko grande]

Sawyer is a historian, so we can expect something like this. And we don't know much about feudalism in PE. This is a medieval society, but what if it doesn't resembles classic European feudalism? Maybe there are different nations, and some of them are more like Byzantine Empire (I so much want that!), or Arab world at its best, or Italian city-states like Genoa and Venice?

 

If we ever get an RPG set in a well-done fantasy version of the Byzantine Empire, I will buy an island and start my own nation there, purely for the purpse of marrying that video game.

[Burn Everything & Sing]

Well, personally.... if there were some steampunk elements, that'd be pretty rad. Besides the modron in Planescape: Torment fits a steampunkish theme... also, from what I recall of AD&D 2nd edition there were weapons such as the "arquebus" were included (even if it were up to the DM to have them in game or not).

[rjshae]

Muzzle-loader loose-powder firearms are really not that big a deal in gameplay. Historically the accuracy was so bad and the reload time so long that they wouldn't be much good for a few adventurers fighting a horde of monsters. Your fighter would get off one musket or maybe two pistol shots at the start of each fight and that's it (until you spend 30 seconds stationary & out of combat reloading), it certainly wouldn't overshadow conventional weapons much less spell use.

 

I'm with Starglider on this one. Plus, in terms of net firepower, a wand of fireballs is going to beat a muzzle-loader hands down.

Edited October 18, 2012 by rjshae

[Tamerlane]

Sawyer is a historian, so we can expect something like this. And we don't know much about feudalism in PE. This is a medieval society, but what if it doesn't resembles classic European feudalism? Maybe there are different nations, and some of them are more like Byzantine Empire (I so much want that!), or Arab world at its best, or Italian city-states like Genoa and Venice?

 

If we ever get an RPG set in a well-done fantasy version of the Byzantine Empire, I will buy an island and start my own nation there, purely for the purpse of marrying that video game.

Well, Dragon Age has a very blatant stand-in for the Byzantines...

 

... but of course, the trouble's with the execution on that particular front.

[Gyor]

I think different areas will have different tech levels.

 

The free Palatinate of Dyerwood would probably have Late Medevil tech, while the Vialian Republic would be more renassiance.

 

A random Orlan village might be bronze or stone age.

 

And I prefer high fantasy for magic myself.

 

I'm fine with gun powder and muskets or whatever.

 

Although when descussing the midevil period tech, some people seem to forget that it was called the Dark Ages for a reason, the previous Roman era was far more advanced in many areas, not all, but many. So I wouldn't mind seeing some Roman level technology too.

 

Also remember that these cultures maybe inspired by certain earth eras, but they have thier own history and potent magics and the like so don't expect historical recreation.