Do I see guns and gunpowder ? I hope not :S

[Domigorgon]

Slow-reloading firearms is basically the same as crossbows. Maybe they do more damage or cause bigger criticals, but there's probably a longer pause between reloading. It's not game-breaking if utilized properly.

 

Historically, early firearms did more to demoralize the enemy than do any real damage.

[Monte Carlo]

We talked about this very early on: the crossbow comparison is apt.

 

Sawyer agreed that a viable tactic is fire gun, drop it, draw melee weapon. I'd have two or even three firearms-enabled characters whose opening gambit is a volley of shot, followed by melee weapons. I suspect that this will be very useful against wizards.

[kenup]

Firearms should be 13th century muskets, that can double as trumpets during reloading times.

Edited October 13, 2012 by kenup

[Loranc]

The tech level is about equal to 1400s Earth

The most advanced civilizations in Project Eternity’s world are described as having access to early firearms and ocean-worthy ships, while others are still lagging far behind. Most militaries still employ mostly melee troops, though guns are noted as being particularly effective against the magical shields used by wizards.

 

This is taken from PC gamer about what we know so far about Project Eternity.

[BTA51]

The middle ages range from 500-1500 A.D., the game is said to be set in the equivalent of the late middle ages. Firearms were both devloped and used in this historical period, but they were pretty crappy.

Edited October 13, 2012 by BTA51

[Monte Carlo]

Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but I rather like aspects of this artist's vision of a fantasy-type firearms dude (DeviantART FTW).

 

[Karranthain]

That's pretty cool, Monte.

[Clammo]

To a large extent I'm with you OP in that I hate guns in fantasy settings. However from what I've read they have a very limited role, and I'm trusting enough of the development team they've assembled that it's going to blend in with the gameworld without being jarring.

[ogrezilla]

It doesn't matter when black powder weapons appeared in Europe because this game does not take place in Europe.

Edited October 13, 2012 by ogrezilla

[NerdBoner]

I like how people make a huge deal about black powder being in this when Irenicus had cloning technology and was apparently a master geneticist...

[DocDoomII]

Logic fails me.

How come people are troubled about firearms, but want bows and crossbows to have infinite projectiles? What would be the difference from an uzi and a crossbow with unlimited darts?

The polygonal model?

[ogrezilla]

Logic fails me.

How come people are troubled about firearms, but want bows and crossbows to have infinite projectiles? What would be the difference from an uzi and a crossbow with unlimited darts?

The polygonal model?

1 farmer with an uzi would make our party look like the rats in the cellar of that first bar in IWD.

[Magnum Opus]

We're dealing with player preferences, which are personally and emotionally driven. If the player does not associate gunpowder with a medieval-Europe -inspired gameworld society, then the inclusion of gun powder will rub them the wrong way. And lets face it, historically inaccurate or not, guns vs. swords appears to have become the dividing line between "medieval swords n' sorcery" (with sorcery/magic being offered in opposition to science) for games.

 

That its an emotional, or at the very least, pseudo-historical issue (not real life history, but gaming history... which is really the only history that matters here. Real life Medieval Europe has precious little to do with anything here other than aesthetics, so I don't know why people keep bringing that up), doesn't mean it isn't valid, however, or that it won't cause someone to dislike/avoid the project if they feel strongly enough about it.

 

This is why logic fails you. Because this is not a logical issue.

[ogrezilla]

I love the inclusion of guns. I do hope they are as slow/limited as they should be though. Something you'll shoot at most once per fight and switch to your standard weapon. Maybe make the black powder itself hard to come by to avoid using them every fight.

[Tr1ploid]

People seem to have a very twisted image of the Middle Ages. If you want those huge stone keeps you're used to from RPG's, large trading cities that consist of a chaos of daub and wattle houses, ports with galleons, gothic plate armor and giant twohanded swords, that means you want a 15th century setting, and that also has a lot of gunpowder warfare. It's as simple as that.

[Yst]

When people get so set in their notion of 'fantasy' that the simple idea of a weapon they're not immediately familiar with from prior 'fantasy' becomes profoundly uncomfortable, I think it ceases to be fantasy altogether.

 

If someone's idea of the 'fantasy' genre is so strictly defined as that, I want nothing of it. I'll instead go to authors and artists whose writing offers invention and imagination. Not authors who don't stray too far from what elves are supposed to be like or what fantasy weapons are supposed to be like or what fantasy creatures are supposed to be like.

 

That's just the dirty sense of 'genre' at work. When everything becomes generic. When an imagined world doesn't exist any more to stimulate the imagination, but just to retell a tale we've heard before, with characters we've seen before, in a setting we've visited before.

 

Worse yet is the idea that if the chronology of a fantasy work's history doesn't exactly reflect the chronology of the history of medieval Europe, it's in error. I'm fond of alternate history and historical fiction. But so far as I am aware, this is not a historical fiction game. So for those who object to the characters of Project Eternity's world using firearms because the Dutch weren't using firearms until 50 years later, or what have you, I just have nothing to say at all. It's hilarious, really.

Edited October 13, 2012 by Yst

[ogrezilla]

I enjoy the little note in the technology update about the printing press not existing yet. They clearly aren't looking at this world as a strict European history recreation and I like that.

Edited October 13, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Monte Carlo]

* Laughs incredulously at the rest of the forum *

 

Of course there is one logical definition of fantasy.

 

Mine.

[Wirdjos]

I enjoy the little note in the technology update about the printing press not existing yet. They clearly aren't looking at this world as a strict European history recreation and I like that.

 

This is the sort of thing I like. I know this isn't historical fiction, but I like the application of historical fiction thinking. This isn't Earth so it wouldn't have developed the same way, both because of favors that obviously aren't present and because the course of history is altered by somewhat random occurrences. Mentioning that, for whatever reason, this world hasn't developed the printing press yet means that the developers are considering the ways in which the printing press changed people throughout history and how everything would have been different if it didn't happen. Thus historical fiction thinking in a fantasy world.

[Superdeluxe]

I hate the standard medieval fantasy tropes, and am glad OE is mixing it up a little.

[stratigo]

 

Something of a generalisation. The first powder weapons were truly experimental, with a pretty high risk of killing their own operators, and thus did not become popular until a few things started happening:

• Established consistency in the composition, and thus volatility, of powder
  
• Workarounds for situations that could instantly render your weaponry useless (i.e. rain).
  
• Machining techniques capable of producing smooth or symmetrical projectiles, and barrels with few imperfections.
  

As for firearms (by which I mean individual powder weapons), for a very long time there was little that an arquebus or similar weapon could achieve that you couldn't do with the true 'superweapon' of the mid-medieval: the crossbow.

 

Crossbows were consistently more accurate than firearms (at least for several centuries), and could operate over greater distances, were usually cheaper to produce, and took the same (or less) time to reload for a similar degree of armour penetration. There's a reason why Pope Innocent II tried to ban their use in Europe: they threatened to democratise violence far too much.

 

Firearms started to replace crossbows only when they were reliably shown to pack an even bigger punch, for less training. Also, crucially, the use of massed-ranks multiplied their impact: military tactics had to catch up.

 

In PE, I think I'd rather want to turn to a crossbow for most ranged combat situations. That's the kind of time setting I'm rooting for.

 

They became quite popular for shooting large stone balls at castle walls. The time of the hand cannon was fairly breif, and militaries transitioned relatively rapidly to matchlock weapons, and from there quickly organizing into pike and shot formations.

 

A matchlock is superior to a crossbow in every way except when it rains.

 

A crossbow of any serious pull (EG able to penetrate knight plate at any range beyond you dangling off his lance) takes longer to reload then a gun. Yes. You have to set it down and hand crank it. Which takes a looooong time. Any other kind of crossbow (especially hand drawn) would mostly be laughed off by anyone with the most rudementary of armor.

 

Also they can't be used in formation as easily as guns.

 

If you were an adventurer, well you turn to magic doodads, but at the heart of it, a gun is going to serve you far better then any crossbow ever made. Even the crudest of hand firearms would be better then any crossbow beyond the heaviest arbalest.

 

 

Also a spanish tercio would slaughter welsh longbows. Pikes in close formation actually deflect arrows surprisingly well and most men would have some sort of armor that'll stop arrows from the extreme ranges they have in advantage over matchlocks. Also an arrow doesn't kill that fast.

[RosesandAshes]

On the subject of guns in fantasy worlds, Arcanum would like a word with all the naysayers.

[JWestfall]

Not to sidetrack, but I think it's interesting that several of the issues people have with a particular aspect of the game seem to be traced back to WoW in some form or another - classes, cooldowns, gunpowder off the top of my head. Actually, now that I type that out, it seems pretty obvious.

 

Back to the topic at hand, I admit I had a momentary knee-jerk reaction when seeing firearms in the concept art - but after a bit of explanation, I've warmed to the idea. I can't wait to stick a musket in some wizard's pretentious face.

[Monte Carlo]

Busting caps into wizards' asses is all part of the appeal, I agree.

[JWestfall]

^^ Original gangsta background for the Rogue class?