Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part II).

[Dream]

 

 

Have fun with that stupidly heavy helmet that prevents you from turning your head.

 

Have fun with magic.

[FlintlockJazz]

Have fun with that stupidly heavy helmet that prevents you from turning your head.

These helmets were mostly used to provide additional protection from the lance while charging into battle on horseback.

Knights often wore the close-fitting steel skull cap known as a cervelliere, or its later development the bascinet beneath the great helm, and would remove the great helm once close combat ensued.

I doubt very much that there will be the cavalry in P:E, so I gues there will be no much real usage for topfhelms.

But still, it's not "stupidly" heavy. It's heavy, but it can save your head from becoming a kebab.

 

I think he may be refering to the big horn things coming out the sided of the helmet but don't quote me on that...

[Jarmo]

Those horn things could be pretty light actually, given how they don't need to fill any specific purpose (except looking badass and intimidating).

Rolled metal sheets for the horns, light spikes with canvas in between, a couple hundred grams extra, maybe.

 

Japanese helm ornaments were much bigger and used in combat, but were made of sone sort of paper.

[Karranthain]

I'd love to see something like this in the game :

 

 

Have fun with that stupidly heavy helmet that prevents you from turning your head.

 

http://forums.obsidi...20#entry1240350

 

And while I doubt anything like that was worn on the battlefields, it could be much lighter than it looks.

[Nomine Vacans]

FlintlockJazz, a Crest?

Crest (in the European tradition - Kleinod) - decoration mounted on top of the helmet , originally made of the horns of animals and feathers of birds. This element was developed during a joust and served as an additional identification mark, by which a knight may be seen in the confusion of tournament battle, because the figure could be seen from afar better than a coat of arms depicted on the shield.

Crests were made of light wood, leather, and papier-mâché, but over time they began to be produced from the more valuable materials.

P.S. I wonder how this relates to the topic of the original thread =P

[Jarmo]

Here BTW is one of the rare examples of Conan done as it was written by Howard.

Hmm.. any simple way to scale down the image in post?

 

 

Anyway:

 

Petri Hiltunen's interpretation of Conan in "Queen of the Black Coast," illustrating Conan's Aesir helm, Kothic hauberk and greaves, Nemedian ring-mail, Aquilonian broadsword, and Ophirean cloak.

 

Bêlit does go a bit lightly armored, but such is the way of barbarian pirate queens, I suppose.

[Karranthain]

FlintlockJazz, a Crest?

Crest (in the European tradition - Kleinod) - decoration mounted on top of the helmet , originally made of the horns of animals and feathers of birds. This element was developed during a joust and served as an additional identification mark, by which a knight may be seen in the confusion of tournament battle, because the figure could be seen from afar better than a coat of arms depicted on the shield.

Crests were made of light wood, leather, and papier-mâché, but over time they began to be produced from the more valuable materials.

P.S. I wonder how this relates to the topic of the original thread =P

 

Aye, we're getting slightly derailed (though it still concerns armour designs, so not by a huge margin). In any case, this got buried underneath the discussion - let's try it again.

 

If you'd have to pick one set of armour and one weapon type to be included in PE, what would be your choice? Post images and a small explanation why (use the template from the aforementioned post for clarity).

[Monte Carlo]

With regards to armour:

 

Do you remember the rules of any fight involving a blade, of any description?

 

You are GOING to get cut. Forget what martial arts fanbois say. You are going. to. get. cut.

 

There are a number of ways to mitigate this.

 

1. Shoot the dude with the blade from a safe distance

 

2. Use your skillz, as much as you can, to mitigate the amount of cuts you recieve

 

3. WEAR ARMOUR

 

The more missile weapons became ascendant, the less armour soldiers wore until the revolution in ceramics and ballistic fabrics of the 80s and 90s. And, guess what? Soldiers are wearing armour again.

[motorizer]

Whilst full plate armour is obviously the most protection in a battle I'm just not sure it would be the choice adventurers would make when going into a dungeon not knowing if they'd have to climb,swim,sneak,jump,squeeze through a tight space or pull each other up/lower them down somewhere with rope (I know many of these things probably won't be in an isometric game)

 

this game is about a small party of adventurers exploring, not an army fighting a war, unless I've missed something.

[Jorian Drake]

hm, on this topic i have to say I support diversity, and all styles of weaponry and clothing

 

Once in a while I like to have or meet a character who just looks sexy and/or badass with a huge blade or exotic armor, but not all the time (unless it is culture related). I do however tend to point out that cultures and trends influence design in RL history as well, in a world where magic can just as well protect you from damage and cold or hot weather it is even more likely you see chainmail bikinis or near-nekkid barbarians.

Proud and "noble" races may even consider a weakness to wear full plate, or anything not made by them could be considered heretical, or by other strong races people could get laughed at for not using heavy, large weapons. (as example, in an elven nation/sub-spacies culture may dictate that only elven armament should be used, and only elven crafted armor shall be worn unless you plan to be considered a traitor to your kind)

 

In my opinion, there is an unique flavor to demonic/godly/otherwise powerful creatures and characters which can wield extremely large weapons despite their frail bodyframe due to otherworldly might, or to a "sexy goddess" who can laugh at enemies which try to strike her but never hit, due to her magical barriers and enchanced dress.

Also, as mentioned earlier silly clothes and hats in RL history is also due to culture and trends, and were often impractical anyway (but this wouldn't be such great a problem in a magical world).

At the same time, without any sense trying to constantly use extremes in design for a game isn't right either and I understand the side of argument which got fed up by seeing an armor on a male character being a "tin-can" hiding everything from feet to head, while the very same armor on a female character suddenly morphs into something that barely hides anything.

 

So, whatever kind of armors and weapons there will be in the game (and once again: I am all for diversitiy and presence of all kind of extremes and desingns somewhere in the middle), I hope their appearance will not change depending on what race or gender wears it. (although in certain exceptions it would be logical, as in for a character with an exotic bodybuilt that has a tail or 4 arms as example, or if there are customization options that allow the gear to be "reforged" or repainted for certain characters or cultural design styles)

 

Give the girls the option to also buy some sexy skimpy outfit and equip it on male characters to see them in something like "Baywatch tanga", diversity and equality for all, I say.

 

PS: sorry if my rambling can't be understood, am writing from home with a lack of coffee and half-asleep, while still not being a native English speaker (and most likely never will be unless I suddenly wake up and find myself being one). So if there are questions about what the heck I actually wrote I will try to answer them later ^.^

 

EDIT: Honestly, in my opinion if we try to force realistic standards on a fantasy world I can't get rid of the idea that just as in the ancient hellenic era where warriors barely wore anything at all except a shield and a weapon, there should also be in such a world fighters who also know some spellcasting or have magical shields and thus ignore armor alltogether.

For some reason if people talk about fantasy games the discusion is more often than not about the European medieval times and the weapons/clothes of that era, and other continents and eras get entirelly ignored (while in my own opinion the ancient hellenic era due to the gods and mythology are closer to the theme) and even the horse using and nomadic cultures like that of the Huns, Mongols, Hungarians are more than not forgotten/ignored. (I guess partially due to developers for some reason being allergic to horses and mounted combat, or proper ranged combat tactics)

Edited November 9, 2012 by Jorian Drake

[motorizer]

Thinking of something like the lord of the rings films...they did put armor on for some of the big battles, but when travelling as a small group (like we will be in the game) they travelled light

[Monte Carlo]

^ King Arthur, the Clive Owen version, did that well. They wore kit appropriate to the circumstances and in the final battle put on some badass heavy fighting gear...

 

 

[motorizer]

Conan did it as well, in the first Arnie film he wore armor for the battle at the burial ground, but when travelling or sneaking or thieving he didn't bother

 

my point is though, that when going somewhere you don't know what to expect..that might have tight gaps, water, mud bogs, rickety bridges or whatever you probably wouldn't put on the heaviest, most inflexible thing you could find, especially if you're planning to carry loot out with you, not to mention the fact that you might have marched for days, uphill, to get there.

 

Plate armor is for fighting battles, we wont be constantly fighting battles, this isn't mount and blade,

would be nice to have some battles though, where heavy plate is appropriate

Edited November 9, 2012 by motorizer

[Merlkir]

EDIT: Honestly, in my opinion if we try to force realistic standards on a fantasy world I can't get rid of the idea that just as in the ancient hellenic era where warriors barely wore anything at all except a shield and a weapon, there should also be in such a world fighters who also know some spellcasting or have magical shields and thus ignore armor alltogether.

For some reason if people talk about fantasy games the discusion is more often than not about the European medieval times and the weapons/clothes of that era, and other continents and eras get entirelly ignored (while in my own opinion the ancient hellenic era due to the gods and mythology are closer to the theme) and even the horse using and nomadic cultures like that of the Huns, Mongols, Hungarians are more than not forgotten/ignored. (I guess partially due to developers for some reason being allergic to horses and mounted combat, or proper ranged combat tactics)

 

PE's world is inspired by late medieval Europe. To what degree, we can only speculate. But it has guns, it has plate armour. So it's pretty safe to say they're drawing quite a bit of inspiration from there.

 

The Greeks and other ancient warriors did wear armour (contrary to what 300 would have you believe) and they often wore as much of it as possible. If warriors fought nearly naked, they had some silly ritualistic reason for it, or they were so poor they couldn't afford armour. Also, if you live in a society where a sheepskin cloak is the pinnacle of armour manufacturing technology, it's quite obvious why you're not wearing full plate into battle.

 

Would I be interested if PE drew inspiration from other periods and cultures? Sure. But it has to make sense. Magically shielded naked monks are excellent, but naked warriors in a world where armour is somewhat accessible? Eeeh, why?

[SophosTheWise]

EDIT: Honestly, in my opinion if we try to force realistic standards on a fantasy world I can't get rid of the idea that just as in the ancient hellenic era where warriors barely wore anything at all except a shield and a weapon, there should also be in such a world fighters who also know some spellcasting or have magical shields and thus ignore armor alltogether.

For some reason if people talk about fantasy games the discusion is more often than not about the European medieval times and the weapons/clothes of that era, and other continents and eras get entirelly ignored (while in my own opinion the ancient hellenic era due to the gods and mythology are closer to the theme) and even the horse using and nomadic cultures like that of the Huns, Mongols, Hungarians are more than not forgotten/ignored. (I guess partially due to developers for some reason being allergic to horses and mounted combat, or proper ranged combat tactics)

 

PE's world is inspired by late medieval Europe. To what degree, we can only speculate. But it has guns, it has plate armour. So it's pretty safe to say they're drawing quite a bit of inspiration from there.

 

 

Somewhere they stated it would be 16th century technology level including guns.

Also there is nearly no RPG that ignores those other cultures, think Skyrim. No medieval age, just everything Vikings and Celts (in a VERY poor way) and also those desert cat people (Khajit?). The ancient times aren't just exciting anymore for me. I've seen and played enough ancient Greece and Celts and whatnot. A 16th century early renaissance setting would definitely be a cool novelty. Still rooting for Landsknechts, although I have little faith

[Jorian Drake]

The Greeks and other ancient warriors did wear armour (contrary to what 300 would have you believe) and they often wore as much of it as possible.

I don't friggin care about 300, what I talk about is the early hellenic era, or later about the poor/peasant warriors which were the majority of armies then, even in the early period of hoplite warfare shield and weapon was way more important than actual armor, and this came a bit back with the phalanx formation where the spear and shield often meant more than what you would wear on body (although by that time there always was some kind of armor used)

 

Also, I didn't speak of the early hellenic era alone, there are for centuries/thousands of years places in America, Asia, Africa where metal armor never really got a foothold, especially in Asia and America. As "SophosTheWise" pointed out, while classic medieval can be fun, I also prefer a mix of many cultures and traditions, even more true uniqueness in my RPG-s, which got somewhat borng by most of the time building on the very same core concepts in regards of armament. Bring me vikings, aztecs and incas, camel riders or mongols, samurais and ninjas, martial artists! Throw into the pot new unique cultures and magic for the setting (not to mention non-human races), and you see what multitude and diverse weaponry and armor list you can get from it.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Jorian Drake

[FlintlockJazz]

The Greeks and other ancient warriors did wear armour (contrary to what 300 would have you believe) and they often wore as much of it as possible.

I don't friggin care about 300, what I talk about is the early hellenic era, or later about the poor/peasant warriors which were the majority of armies then, even in the early period of hoplite warfare shield and weapon was way more important than actual armor, and this came a bit back with the phalanx formation where the spear and shield often meant more than what you would wear on body (although by that time there always was some kind of armor used)

 

Also, I didn't speak of the early hellenic era alone, there are for centuries/thousands of years places in America, Asia, Africa where metal armor never really got a foothold, especially in Asia and America. As "SophosTheWise" pointed out, while classic medieval can be fun, I also prefer a mix of many cultures and traditions, even more true uniqueness in my RPG-s, which got somewhat borng by most of the time building on the very same core concepts in regards of armament. Bring me vikings, aztecs and incas, camel riders or mongols, samurais and ninjas, martial artists! Throw into the pot new unique cultures and magic for the setting (not to mention non-human races), and you see what multitude and diverse weaponry and armor list you can get from it.

 

Ironically its wanting to incorporate everything that makes settings bland. DnD basically rips from anything and everything, and everyone else rips from DnD. More =/= better, on the contrary it tends to lead to a homogenous bore imho.

[Jorian Drake]

The Greeks and other ancient warriors did wear armour (contrary to what 300 would have you believe) and they often wore as much of it as possible.

I don't friggin care about 300, what I talk about is the early hellenic era, or later about the poor/peasant warriors which were the majority of armies then, even in the early period of hoplite warfare shield and weapon was way more important than actual armor, and this came a bit back with the phalanx formation where the spear and shield often meant more than what you would wear on body (although by that time there always was some kind of armor used)

 

Also, I didn't speak of the early hellenic era alone, there are for centuries/thousands of years places in America, Asia, Africa where metal armor never really got a foothold, especially in Asia and America. As "SophosTheWise" pointed out, while classic medieval can be fun, I also prefer a mix of many cultures and traditions, even more true uniqueness in my RPG-s, which got somewhat borng by most of the time building on the very same core concepts in regards of armament. Bring me vikings, aztecs and incas, camel riders or mongols, samurais and ninjas, martial artists! Throw into the pot new unique cultures and magic for the setting (not to mention non-human races), and you see what multitude and diverse weaponry and armor list you can get from it.

 

Ironically its wanting to incorporate everything that makes settings bland. DnD basically rips from anything and everything, and everyone else rips from DnD. More =/= better, on the contrary it tends to lead to a homogenous bore imho.

 

I say it COULD be done right, but in PC RPG gaming it wasn't done yet, I can easily imagine a setting where an asian and european theme is present as a contrast, maybe in a story where the "Europeans" go to explore and tradi in "Asia", or perhaps a version of the Mongolian invasion of Europe. (as an example from the other direction, the Journey of Hasekura Tsunenaga is also a good story for a background)

If the difference in cultures is more than just a bit of flavor text and there is an actual difference in equipment/tactics, then it would be good. (imagine all the cultural/religious/warfare/trade/scheming events that could come up in such a game even if its about nothing more than a foreign merchant falling in love with a local)

[Grotesque]

Oakeshott recognized this problematic mixture of ignorance and prejudice more than three decades ago, writing in his influential, Sword in the Age of Chivalry, he noted: "Add to this the work of romantic writers in the past, who, seeking to give to their heroes a touch of the Superman, caused them to wield enormous and weighty weapons far beyond the powers of modern man, and complete the picture with the scorn poured upon these swords by lovers of the elegance of the 18^th century and it becomes easier to see why so plain a weapon can be accounted crude, ponderous, and inefficient. In fact the average weight of these swords is between 2 lbs. and 3 lbs., and they were balanced (according to their purpose) with the same care and skill in the making as a tennis racket or a fishing rod. The old belief that they are unwieldable is as absurd and out-dated, and dies as hard, as the myth that armored knights had to be hoisted into their saddles with a crane." (Oakeshott, Sword in the Age of Chivalry, p. 12).

 

 

Source:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm

[Merlkir]

Not entirely serious, yet relevant.

 

[Dream]

 

Would I be interested if PE drew inspiration from other periods and cultures? Sure. But it has to make sense. Magically shielded naked monks are excellent, but naked warriors in a world where armour is somewhat accessible? Eeeh, why?

 

Because it's awesome, as 300 demonstrated.

 

Rule of Cool.

[Nomine Vacans]

 

Because it's awesome, as 300 demonstrated.

 

Rule of Cool.

Yeah. Awesome. And totally not homoerotic. Just 300 almost naked oiled muscular guys. Totally awesome and NOT gay.

[TrashMan]

Ironically its wanting to incorporate everything that makes settings bland. DnD basically rips from anything and everything, and everyone else rips from DnD. More =/= better, on the contrary it tends to lead to a homogenous bore imho.

 

Agreed.

D&D often feels like someone just took every myth, culture and idea wihout any fitering process whatsoever, threw them in a big blender and hit the "puree" bottun.

 

Such setting that try to mix everything often feel very "fake" to me. Like they are a product of some checkbox assembly process.

[jezz555]

Not entirely serious, yet relevant.

 

 

This isn't really true at all for jrpgs, it's really only true of dark souls in fact, which ironically uses more western/european designs for it's gear than most other japanese games, and furthermore isn't really an rpg.

 

Ironically its wanting to incorporate everything that makes settings bland. DnD basically rips from anything and everything, and everyone else rips from DnD. More =/= better, on the contrary it tends to lead to a homogenous bore imho.

 

Agreed.

D&D often feels like someone just took every myth, culture and idea wihout any fitering process whatsoever, threw them in a big blender and hit the "puree" bottun.

 

Such setting that try to mix everything often feel very "fake" to me. Like they are a product of some checkbox assembly process.

 

D&D just gives you options, the filtering is up to you. I always created my own campaign settings for each adventure that, had a select group of monsters that fit together, the same doesn't really apply to PE because its not a PnP game, but you can pick and choose, your not just intended to throw like medusae and coatl's together...unless that's what you want to do.

Edited November 12, 2012 by jezz555

[Mandragore]

That guy has to be trolling. He picked the one Japanese rpg that emulates practical western designs and the one western rpg that emulates anime. Not to mention he has a picture of Justin Beiber as his avatar... I kid, I kid.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Mandragore