Orcs - discussion

[TrashMan]

OP - you mentioned War3 as good writing.

I dissaprove.

[Calmar]

At a certain point, a race does not need to be called 'orcs' to essentially be orcs. No matter if they are clearly inspired by the wretched and cunning Mordor orcs, or ruthless and efficient Uruk-hai from Tolkien, or the green-skinned savage nobles of various more recent fantasy settings -- if someone new to the setting would spontaneously call them 'orcs', it's best to actually use that term, instead of something like krug, darkspawn, or Remans.

[Tauron]

Always thought of Orcs being a species that devolved over a time, which happened to be true whn you read in Silmarilion that Orcs are "twisted" Elves. I would like to see that connection in the PE world. If all species originate in that world they should have some connection betwean them, especially if there are half of evrything. In witcher one finds out that at some point in time more "parallel dimensions" kind of clashed. Acually it appears that humans seem to be "otherwordly" presance in the world as well, next to most monsters one is hunting. So that is nice twist.

[Frenzy-kun]

I would say no for a reason. Mankind has an awesome mind and can create new races very easily. Orcs are already overused and I think anything new and fresh could be much more interesting, even if it's something equivalent.

 

But of course, this is just personal likings, no real reason but that.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Here's an idea I've had going for a while now. Orcs (or equivalent species) were once an evil servant race of some Archdemon or Dark God or such, a la Tolkien. However, when said power was weakened/destroyed, many orcs enacted a Faustian Rebellion and switched sides, effectively becoming another civilised race. They aren't stupid or evil by any means, but have a reputation for being direct, inflexible, unsubtle and harsh - but are also regarded as moral, often heroic, strong-willed and brave. Essentially, in meta terms, pluses to strength/constitution and wisdom/willpower, minuses to dexterity and charisma, tend towards fighter, paladin, barbarian, priest. They could be our `demonic` godlike race, as they maintain some abilities from their old masters. It leaves room for `orcs as mook race`, as some orcs may still serve said old masters. You could also deal with the racial issue bound to crop up in an interesting way, as much of society respects the civilised orcs for having rebelled (and may even feel indebted to them, if the orcs had a Big Damn Heroes moment) while others may still resent them for once being enemies, or suspect that any who switched sides once may do so again, particularly if the war was recent.

 

And whatever happens, I don't want the `Orc as Noble Savage` thing. Done. To. Death.

[Keyrock]

I'm a HUGE Orc fanatic. I always play as an Orc or Half-Orc if that's all that is available. Obviously I voted "Yes, fully playable". Green for the win!

 

As far as Orcs being overused, they're not nearly as overused as elves and dwarves.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Keyrock

[Heresiarch]

I really wish elves, dwarves, orcs and other Tolkien legacy race would have seized to exist by now. I got nothing against professor's works, I must have read LoTR like 5 times back in the days, not to mention Silmarillion and al the other good stuff he's put so much hard work into. But it is his take on the fantasy world, there's no need to rip off parts of it just to be popular and immerse the player faster into your own fantasy universe. That's just cheap.

[TrashMan]

I love elves, dwaves and orcs and want to see them everywhere...EVERYWHERE.

 

[Odglok]

First off, I'd like a good D&D-style RPG with 100% original races, but since that's not the intended concept for Project Eternity, I can readily accept Orcs in the setting.

 

Like most respondents, I don't care for the "noble savage" concept. We don't have to limit their alignment to chaotic evil, but I think that's what we would generally expect when it comes to Orcs. Personally, I like the idea that Orcish culture has a well deserved reputation for cruelty, dishonesty, and incessant warfare. However, every individual Orc isn't simply born evil; they are products of their established society. An orphaned Orc who grows up in another race's society may be considerably less aggressive and hateful, but he would always have an innate bloodlust and would be more likely to become a mercenary than a paladin.

 

They aren't stupid or evil by any means, but have a reputation for being direct, inflexible, unsubtle and harsh - but are also regarded as moral, often heroic, strong-willed and brave.

 

What you're desicribing sounds more like Dwarves, to me. Since Dwarves are confirmed in the game, I feel confident they will fill this niche. With Orcs, there's an opportunity to present true nastiness, and I'd like to see that.

 

Really though, most of it comes down to setting. Do the developers want Project Eternity's gameworld to be characterized by huge, multicultural cities like Baldur's Gate 2, or do they want more racial separation like Lord of the Rings? I don't prefer one over the other, but the decision affects the way you design the races. D&D Orcs can't realistically exist in a diverse city because they're always chaotic evil. They have to be a NPC race that exists outside the borders of the playable races' domains. Elder Scrolls' Orcs can coexist with other races because they're not particularly violent, just dumb and strong.

 

If you want evil Orcs in a multiculturally harmonistic setting, you could portray them as trying (and often failing) to repress their innately chaotic evil nature in order to survive and thrive in their more civilized environment. The elephant in the room is that everyone knows Orcs are evil and that they would, if only given the chance, enslave the entire free world and rule as merciless tyrants. But the Orcs know they'll never survive if they carry that attitude openly. So they adapt as best they can. Some genuinely try to supress it, causing a great deal of inner turmoil; others merely try to hide it, holding shady occupations and secretly plotting/hoping for a day when they no longer have to tolerate their non-Orcish neighbors and their loathsome ideals.

[FlintlockJazz]

If there are going to be orcs in this game, I hope they are not going to be of the green variety. They were not always green and only became popular as green after Games Workshop did it (and they at least had a reason for it, their orcs are fungus). Prefer to see grey or human skintones on them, or a more horrifying look (I've always found Dark Elves to be scarier when they are depicted as extremely pale, often sickly so, rather than as the FR depiction of them).

[Cryticus]

ORKS IZ MADE FER ROCKIN!

[TheTeaMustFlow]

 

They aren't stupid or evil by any means, but have a reputation for being direct, inflexible, unsubtle and harsh - but are also regarded as moral, often heroic, strong-willed and brave.

 

What you're desicribing sounds more like Dwarves, to me. Since Dwarves are confirmed in the game, I feel confident they will fill this niche. With Orcs, there's an opportunity to present true nastiness, and I'd like to see that.

 

Really though, most of it comes down to setting. Do the developers want Project Eternity's gameworld to be characterized by huge, multicultural cities like Baldur's Gate 2, or do they want more racial separation like Lord of the Rings? I don't prefer one over the other, but the decision affects the way you design the races. D&D Orcs can't realistically exist in a diverse city because they're always chaotic evil. They have to be a NPC race that exists outside the borders of the playable races' domains. Elder Scrolls' Orcs can coexist with other races because they're not particularly violent, just dumb and strong.

 

If you want evil Orcs in a multiculturally harmonistic setting, you could portray them as trying (and often failing) to repress their innately chaotic evil nature in order to survive and thrive in their more civilized environment. The elephant in the room is that everyone knows Orcs are evil and that they would, if only given the chance, enslave the entire free world and rule as merciless tyrants. But the Orcs know they'll never survive if they carry that attitude openly. So they adapt as best they can. Some genuinely try to supress it, causing a great deal of inner turmoil; others merely try to hide it, holding shady occupations and secretly plotting/hoping for a day when they no longer have to tolerate their non-Orcish neighbors and their loathsome ideals.

 

I guess I didn't make this clear in my post (often a problem I have), but something a bit like that was my idea, except more lawful evil - stylisticly closer to the uruk-hai than tolkeinian orcs. Evil though they were, there was something to admire in the uruks with their dedication to duty and sheer refusal to give up - honour of a sort, you might say. I can see honourable mooks betraying a dishonourable leader for moral reasons. But even then, even if the orcs actually do turn good, they are still naturally evil and default to evil. Every orc is a battleground between their good culture and evil nature. The orcs that become good mostly do so by strict self-discipline, resulting in lawful tendencies. Even then though, there's still the voice in the back of their head telling them to be evil, so people don't trust them as much. While it's a good point that they might seem to similar to dwarves (I'm kicking myself for not making the connection), I still think there can be enough difference to keep them, um, different. e.g. Since all good orcs remain so by iron-self control, they have an utterly unforgiving attitude to those who cannot meet those standards - so, if a drunk hits a man out of anger, a dwarf would slug him in the face, and maybe chuck him in the dungeon for a couple of days to think about what he did, while an orc puts a sword through him, either because he's angry or because he despises the man for letting himself go.

 

Note to self: Try and remember the whole idea in first post....

[Agelastos]

They aren't stupid or evil by any means, but have a reputation for being direct, inflexible, unsubtle and harsh - but are also regarded as moral, often heroic, strong-willed and brave.

 

What you're desicribing sounds more like Dwarves, to me. Since Dwarves are confirmed in the game, I feel confident they will fill this niche. With Orcs, there's an opportunity to present true nastiness, and I'd like to see that.

 

Really though, most of it comes down to setting. Do the developers want Project Eternity's gameworld to be characterized by huge, multicultural cities like Baldur's Gate 2, or do they want more racial separation like Lord of the Rings? I don't prefer one over the other, but the decision affects the way you design the races. D&D Orcs can't realistically exist in a diverse city because they're always chaotic evil. They have to be a NPC race that exists outside the borders of the playable races' domains. Elder Scrolls' Orcs can coexist with other races because they're not particularly violent, just dumb and strong.

 

If you want evil Orcs in a multiculturally harmonistic setting, you could portray them as trying (and often failing) to repress their innately chaotic evil nature in order to survive and thrive in their more civilized environment. The elephant in the room is that everyone knows Orcs are evil and that they would, if only given the chance, enslave the entire free world and rule as merciless tyrants. But the Orcs know they'll never survive if they carry that attitude openly. So they adapt as best they can. Some genuinely try to supress it, causing a great deal of inner turmoil; others merely try to hide it, holding shady occupations and secretly plotting/hoping for a day when they no longer have to tolerate their non-Orcish neighbors and their loathsome ideals.

 

I guess I didn't make this clear in my post (often a problem I have), but something a bit like that was my idea, except more lawful evil - stylisticly closer to the uruk-hai than tolkeinian orcs. Evil though they were, there was something to admire in the uruks with their dedication to duty and sheer refusal to give up - honour of a sort, you might say. I can see honourable mooks betraying a dishonourable leader for moral reasons. But even then, even if the orcs actually do turn good, they are still naturally evil and default to evil. Every orc is a battleground between their good culture and evil nature. The orcs that become good mostly do so by strict self-discipline, resulting in lawful tendencies. Even then though, there's still the voice in the back of their head telling them to be evil, so people don't trust them as much. While it's a good point that they might seem to similar to dwarves (I'm kicking myself for not making the connection), I still think there can be enough difference to keep them, um, different. e.g. Since all good orcs remain so by iron-self control, they have an utterly unforgiving attitude to those who cannot meet those standards - so, if a drunk hits a man out of anger, a dwarf would slug him in the face, and maybe chuck him in the dungeon for a couple of days to think about what he did, while an orc puts a sword through him, either because he's angry or because he despises the man for letting himself go.

 

Note to self: Try and remember the whole idea in first post....

 

... and now they sound more like Qunari.

But I like it.

[Odglok]

I see what you mean now, Tea, and I like it.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

even if the orcs actually do turn good, they are still naturally evil and default to evil.

 

10 bucks says someone will hop in to yell "that's racist!"

[.Leif.]

even if the orcs actually do turn good, they are still naturally evil and default to evil.

 

10 bucks says someone will hop in to yell "that's racist!"

 

That does lead into interesting questions about other 'races' being inherently anything one way or another. What prevents the Orcs from establishing a stable society? Why are the Orlan so scattered? Are Godtouched destined to embrace the ethos of their ancestors?

[TMTVL]

A combination of inherent natural tendencies and tradition. Think of the communalities and differences between population groups right here IRL on Earth. -EXAMPLES NOT INCLUDED FOR POSSIBLE NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT-

[AGX-17]

I haven't checked this thread in a while (I immediately hit NO in the poll and ignored the other options,) but I just noticed "Yes - fully playable race with good background. Something like green qunari. 'from Dragon Age' " And laughed my ass off.

 

The Qunari are nothing like orcs. The Darkspawn are the blatant Orc stand-in for that series. The Qunari are the mysterious and exotic Easterners obsessed with honor, discipline and obedience to authority (all commonalities in the Confucianist world.) that is as far as you can get from orcdom. And the tags "barbarian" and "tribe."

 

P:E doesn't need orcs, barbarians don't need to be orcs to be barbarians. Quite the opposite, in fact. We've already got barbarians. The word barbarian comes from ancient Greece (Hellas, to use their own name for their lands,) and was a derogatory term for anyone who didn't speak the Hellenic language, as to their ears, foreign tongues sounded like "barbarbarbarbar."

Edited December 30, 2012 by AGX-17

[sirchet]

We all seem to like to romantasize the orcs as being noble and honorable, but let's remember what Tolken wrote in 1954 when asked why he chose Orc for the name of his evil, yes evil, race he said Orc was the best name he could think of that sounded like the elven word for evil.

[Giantevilhead]

I think orcs should be as intelligent as other races but they should act dumb to trick people into lowering their guard. So for example, rich merchants would hire orcs as body guards for secret trade negotiations thinking that the orcs would be too dumb to take advantage of that kind of sensitive information but then the orcs would use that insider knowledge to make smart investments.

[Cryticus]

I think orcs should be as intelligent as other races but they should act dumb to trick people into lowering their guard. So for example, rich merchants would hire orcs as body guards for secret trade negotiations thinking that the orcs would be too dumb to take advantage of that kind of sensitive information but then the orcs would use that insider knowledge to make smart investments.

 

But isn't it somehow unrealistic ? Entire race that decided that they should act dumb so they can fool other races, I like idea that they are inteligent but are consdier dumber, but rather then making them act I would make them race of army guys, not a bunch of savages, but rather their whole culture center around cult of army something like Prussia during reign of Frederick William I

. Therefore typical orc would easily accept orders, and woudn't think to much about because it was order, and because of this they would be consider slightly dumber culture.

[TMTVL]

Or make them all evil, so I can play a character that is undeniably evil to the core. Chaotic Evil Orc Necromancer.

[Osvir]

If possible, that'd be a cool thing, being able to make monster races in modding into "Heroes" with abilities etc. etc. Conceptually like WarEdit. Meaning you could (modding) make a Goblin monster into a playable race/playable character. You wouldn't be able to change appearance or anything (maybe some colors?) but mainly be able to add abilities.

 

Basically being able to attach the Goblin "Model" on "Hero Stats".

 

For one reason because I'd love something like this (D&D inspired webcomic that is hilarious):

http://goblinscomic.com/06252005/

 

For the other reason because this is (what I recall) something that is hardcoded in the IE games. You can make an NPC companion that is a Djinn, but it wouldn't be able to function in the same way as a "Hero" (it doesn't level up the same way, basically.. it would be awesome to be able to do that).

Edited December 31, 2012 by Osvir

[.Leif.]

I believe there is a case to be made that it isn't a true BG-style game unless there's an Orc equivalent.

[Vampero]

Orc are cool ! I would not mind them at all !