Live recorded music, Poll 2.0

[Chrząszczyrzewoszyczanin]

How was music made for Infinity Engine games?

 

I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet it was a blend of live and sampled instruments. You can tell when listening to the tracks. Live musicians tend to sound more subtle, expressive and nuanced. At least they "tend" to. It's impossible to fake, though you can get *pretty* close with virtual instruments.

In that case I think I'll be fine without live orchestra especially that technology now is much better than in 1998-2002.

[Monte Carlo]

BAGPIPES.

 

You must have access to them in LA. Scotsmen get everywhere.

[Justin Bell]

tl, dr: Feargus give the green card to Justin Bell

Just to clarify, we haven't announced who's doing the music yet. ThIs is still TBD.

 

So please, Justin, if you were allowed to make the soundtrack( what I would really appreciate), only use synthetic music if your budget allows no other option.

I can say that we won't use elements that don't seem appropriate to the genre. There are all sorts of synth sounds, some sound very electronic and sci-fi, others sound very organic. I can tell you that if we do use synths, it won't sound this obvious:

 

http://m.youtube.com/?reload=3&rdm=mb324119z#/watch?v=bugi35v1CKk

 

 

Too cheesy for my tastes!

[Emeraude]

Synthetic music will ever sounds cheaper, more artificial and less emotional than instrumental music, even if it's done well.

 

I'd say that's a matter of personal investment in the means of delivering sound rather than any intrinsic qualities in them though. We tend to create emotional attachment to some sounds/instruments, and find them better because of it.

If anything, I tend to prefer (well crafted) artificial/sampled sounds, that do not try to parrot live renditions, because they allow for the delivery of more interesting textures than live instruments - which I tend to find flat and remote even at their best.

Again, it's just a matter of personal history.

[LordCrash]

Synthetic music will ever sounds cheaper, more artificial and less emotional than instrumental music, even if it's done well.

 

I'd say that's a matter of personal investment in the means of delivering sound rather than any intrinsic qualities in them though. We tend to create emotional attachment to some sounds/instruments, and find them better because of it.

If anything, I tend to prefer (well crafted) artificial/sampled sounds, that do not try to parrot live renditions, because they allow for the delivery of more interesting textures than live instruments - which I tend to find flat and remote even at their best.

Again, it's just a matter of personal history.

You can't tell that to a person who really loves good music. It's a sacrilege......

 

 

So please, Justin, if you were allowed to make the soundtrack( what I would really appreciate), only use synthetic music if your budget allows no other option.

I can say that we won't use elements that don't seem appropriate to the genre. There are all sorts of synth sounds, some sound very electronic and sci-fi, others sound very organic. I can tell you that if we do use synths, it won't sound this obvious:

 

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=bugi35v1CKk

 

 

Too cheesy for my tastes!

I cannot open the linked videos, Justin! When i click on the videos there only opens an rtsp stream (probably to your own PC.....)

 

I've edited my post above, I don't know if you have seen that yet. I'm looking forward to your answer!

[Emeraude]

You can't tell that to a person who really loves good music. It's a sacrilege......

 

I resent the implication that I am not a person who really love good music !

 

Ever suffered to hear one of your favourite music being used as background for a commercial, its whole texture work having been cleaned up to make it more palatable to general audiences ? It's heart wrenching ! T_T

[diablo169]

I've been subscribed to this guy on youtube for ages, but it just crossed my mind when thinking of Project Eternity. I'm not suggesting him as composer although he is very talented. I guess the point I would like to make is that you can create fantastic music just with a samples library. He does covers of various game and film / tracks Ladies and gentlemen, Blake Robinson and his synthetic orchestra.

 

You can do a lot with samples.

 

http://youtu.be/5_isb_TUPmA

 

http://youtu.be/pnaM7UQq23Q

 

Check out his other work and give him a sub if you like, i've been following his channel for quite some time.

Edited October 7, 2012 by diablo169

[LordCrash]

You can't tell that to a person who really loves good music. It's a sacrilege......

 

I resent the implication that I am not a person who really love good music !

 

Ever suffered to hear one of your favourite music being used as background for a commercial, its whole texture work having been cleaned up to make it more palatable to general audiences ? It's heart wrenching ! T_T

You simply cannot if you prefer synthetic music to instrumental music! That's a question of true faith!

 

And yes, I know what you are talking about with these commercials....

 

I think many people even don't hear differences between instrumental and synthetic music because they are not as interested in music at all or because their hifi equipment is not good enough to evolve the differences. That's especially a problem (or the solution if you have a restricted budget anyhow....) for PCs and Laptops because most of them suffer from serious distortions and bad sound hardware in general....

[Chrząszczyrzewoszyczanin]

 

I can say that we won't use elements that don't seem appropriate to the genre. There are all sorts of synth sounds, some sound very electronic and sci-fi, others sound very organic. I can tell you that if we do use synths, it won't sound this obvious:

 

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=bugi35v1CKk

 

 

Too cheesy for my tastes!

Both of these movies were out in 1985. Fastest existing computer at time was Cray-2 with staggering performance of 1.9 GFLOPS, today my graphic card is more than 50 times faster. They simply couldn't make anything better with computers.

[hideo kuze]

tl, dr: Feargus give the green card to Justin Bell

Just to clarify, we haven't announced who's doing the music yet. This is still TBD.

 

Well, this one really surprised me.

 

Considering the positive feedback from the backers in regard to the music at the forums and the KS project update #14, I was seeing this pretty much as a consolidated fact.

Also because of the results in the poll we had here at the forums.

 

I already expressed my thoughts about this on that thread so...

[diablo169]

Honestly I think the only reason they havent picked who is going to do the score yet, is because they might turn it into a stretch goal.

[Justin Bell]

Well, this one really surprised me.

We're just not ready to talk about it yet... Insert mysterious deflective text here...

[Ieo]

You simply cannot if you prefer synthetic music to instrumental music! That's a question of true faith!

 

And yes, I know what you are talking about with these commercials....

 

I think many people even don't hear differences between instrumental and synthetic music because they are not as interested in music at all or because their hifi equipment is not good enough to evolve the differences. That's especially a problem (or the solution if you have a restricted budget anyhow....) for PCs and Laptops because most of them suffer from serious distortions and bad sound hardware in general....

 

There are really a lot of things going on in terms of "musical appreciation." The ear+brain auditory areas can also be trained, but then there are other interesting factors involved; children who start music lessons between the ages of four and five could learn perfect pitch--14% of Americans compared to 60% of Chinese, and the difference is solely because Mandarin is a tonal language. Then on top of that, truly "tone deaf" are actually quite rare. So I think most people have the ability to hear finer elements of music, but lack of training, exposure, even interest, and all of that together mute the potential particularly with classical instruments. Which is an awful shame, really. We're down to... dumb pop songs with vapid lyrics.

 

But hardware is a good point anyway--people are extremely mobile these days, and earbuds are pretty crappy and laptop speakers are hideous. Hideous.

[Emeraude]

Both of these movies were out in 1985. Fastest existing computer at time was Cray-2 with staggering performance of 1.9 GFLOPS, today my graphic card is more than 50 times faster. They simply couldn't make anything better with computers.

 

Ah-hem...

 

(I know, I know, I'm being voluntarily obtuse... the point was about sounding natural as copies of instrument... still, my point stands !)

[Starwars]

You can't tell that to a person who really loves good music. It's a sacrilege......

 

I resent the implication that I am not a person who really love good music !

 

Ever suffered to hear one of your favourite music being used as background for a commercial, its whole texture work having been cleaned up to make it more palatable to general audiences ? It's heart wrenching ! T_T

You simply cannot if you prefer synthetic music to instrumental music! That's a question of true faith!

 

And yes, I know what you are talking about with these commercials....

 

I think many people even don't hear differences between instrumental and synthetic music because they are not as interested in music at all or because their hifi equipment is not good enough to evolve the differences. That's especially a problem (or the solution if you have a restricted budget anyhow....) for PCs and Laptops because most of them suffer from serious distortions and bad sound hardware in general....

 

"Synthetic" music is every bit as as real as any other music out there. And that's coming from someone who has been playing "live" instruments for 15 years now.

 

Of course, if you're literally just trying to recreate the sound of an orchestra through synthetic means... Then yeah... Obviously a real orchestra would sound better. Which is why you instead make use of the strengths of each medium.

 

A case in point is the Astral Plane music in MotB:

 

Even the synthy strings are used to great effect in how it's interwoven with the rest of the soundscape. The track provides an incredible context for the scene where it's played.

[Ieo]

"Synthetic" music is every bit as as real as any other music out there. And that's coming from someone who has been playing "live" instruments for 15 years now.

 

Of course, if you're literally just trying to recreate the sound of an orchestra through synthetic means... Then yeah... Obviously a real orchestra would sound better. Which is why you instead make use of the strengths of each medium.

 

Even the synthy strings are used to great effect in how it's interwoven with the rest of the soundscape. The track provides an incredible context for the scene where it's played.

 

I think the fewer the instruments involved, the easier it is for the human ear to pick out whatever timbres and nuances set live instrumentation apart. The more that is added to, say, a synth orchestration, the easier it is to overlook whatever "imperfections" in favor of the thematic whole. Ultimately, as long as it matches the setting and amplifies the immersion, it's great.

 

Still want a hurdy-gurdy, though.

[LordCrash]

"Synthetic" music is every bit as as real as any other music out there. And that's coming from someone who has been playing "live" instruments for 15 years now.

 

Of course, if you're literally just trying to recreate the sound of an orchestra through synthetic means... Then yeah... Obviously a real orchestra would sound better. Which is why you instead make use of the strengths of each medium.

 

Even the synthy strings are used to great effect in how it's interwoven with the rest of the soundscape. The track provides an incredible context for the scene where it's played.

 

I think the fewer the instruments involved, the easier it is for the human ear to pick out whatever timbres and nuances set live instrumentation apart. The more that is added to, say, a synth orchestration, the easier it is to overlook whatever "imperfections" in favor of the thematic whole. Ultimately, as long as it matches the setting and amplifies the immersion, it's great.

 

Still want a hurdy-gurdy, though.

A music production in which you cannot pick out single instruments or groups of instruments is simply bad (experienced or trained sense of hearing premised). But that can be true for either instrumental or synthetic recordings while the opposite is only possible for instrumental music to a great extend.

[Justin Bell]

Which is why you instead make use of the strengths of each medium.

 

This is a great point. It's very hard to get virtual instruments to behave like an actual musician. It's always going to be a facsimile. Real musicians are by nature imperfect, and its actually those imperfections that make them sound amazing! Virtual instruments are always at risk of sounding too perfect, and that's the give away for most people wether they know it or not. Recognition of those limitations can make the difference between a succeful score and a poorly executed one.

 

So yeah I agree with this. You have to play to the strengths of your medium, it's too obvious to the listener when you fight against it. I think at the end of the day though, its the music itself that determines how successful a score is. Ultimately, we here at Obsidian are keen on having the most fitting and high quality score possible. And we have plenty of time on our hands to make that a reality. I honestly don't think most people will be disappointed, and I don't mean that to sound arrogant.

 

This is a great discussion by the way!

[Justin Bell]

Awesome dulcimer video "

 

For some reason that duclimer piece reminded me of La Catedral by Augustine Barrios... TOTALLY off topic, but who cares... If you love music, carve out 10 uninterrupted minutes from your life, put on some headphones, turn up the volume, close your eyes and play this amazing piece. I promise, you won't regret it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbD0HLUR6Xw&feature=fvwrel

[Zeckul]

If anything, I tend to prefer (well crafted) artificial/sampled sounds, that do not try to parrot live renditions, because they allow for the delivery of more interesting textures than live instruments - which I tend to find flat and remote even at their best.

Sounds like someone needs to listen to a good rendition of the Rite of Spring.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4Jk8Fjt4rc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSC0rohjBMs

Edited October 8, 2012 by Zeckul

[Darth Trethon]

Music shouldn't detract much from the budget and neither should VO....just whatever they can develop internally through digital means. The game world and story choices are what matters, it would be a shame to sink hundreds of thousands on music.

[Gorth]

You know the saying "a picture is worth a 1000 words" (or something to that effect), I always find music to be the same. 60 seconds of perfect ambient music is worth a 1000 words trying to describe a location and a situation

[Cantousent]

I can see the argument against a full orchestra. I can't understand folks not wanting at least some instruments used. The whole point of this game is that it's a fan funded experience that values quality production over a quick turn over. With that in mind, I most *cynically* suggest that being able to cite some "live" instruments will help class up the project. In fact, I'm not making a quality over quantity argument. I'm making an argument that a specific musical quality will enlarge the project altogether.

 

If... *if* Bell can put those live instruments to good use and create something memorable and put it into a superior recording, then he'll be taking advantage of a wider variety of what the medium can offer and maybe even help to move the medium in some small way.

 

My main point is that music might not seem all that important to a lot of folks, but it is, in practicality, important to the project. Use synthesized music to the betterment of Project Eternity. I know Obsidz has a budget, and I don't want it blown on a pie in the sky effort to make the definitive masterpiece of our times. They're going to use synthesized music, and that music will undoubtedly be beautiful. At least I hope so.

 

However, are you saying that you cannot think of ways to take advantage of "live" instruments to the greater benefit of the project? If Bell says it won't make any difference, I'll do what I've been doing on issues like these and drop the subject. I'm all for Obsidz making the decision. If they don't have the money, fair enough. If they don't think it will add anything, fair enough. However, if they can budget some live instruments and those instruments will add to the grander glory of the project as a whole, they should invest the funds to include them.

 

Music is peculiar. It might not seem like it's all that important, but it has the singular characteristic of imbuing prestige onto a product. A good effort will immediately be a great effort and a great effort can become a classic. That's true for movies and tv shows. It's true for games. If authors could create attending scores for their novels, it would be true for books. You want a classy game that's more likely to become a classic, don't just throw tunes together.

 

I have never learned to play an instrument. I've only got my own two ears and forty-three years of listening, but I know what I like when I hear it and I want to hear something I love when I play this game.

[Falkon Swiftblade]

they could record a full orchestra in Prague if they needed to for really cheap. One of my contacts used to be a audio director for a game studio, and if memory serves he spent 3 days recording about 60 minutes of music and it was about 20k for 80ish instruments and a few soloists. Though it may be even cheaper. About 6 yrs ago it was about $100 a person per session which is 3-4 hrs. My #'s may be off, but I remember at the time I was surprised compared to a hollywood film it sounded reasonable. Depending on the plot, size of the world, and several other things having a full orchestra may be over kill.

[Emeraude]

Sounds like someone needs to listen to a good rendition of the Rite of Spring.

 

Oh I have. Several time. Live. But see the point that directly preceded that part you quoted. I feel it is remote because it is removed from me. It's dead sound; a sunset viewed trough photochromic lenses. Intrinsic quality of sounds have very little to do with how much we love them (and I do mean sounds, which to me matter more than music... I have no problem listening to a sample a few second long going through a set of almost infinite pre-programmed algorithmic variations in Max/MSP, whereas that rendition of La Catedral, whose quality of execution humbles me, truly, has overcome its stay after 4 minutes - the satisfaction I can get from it is purely intellectual, and it leaves me otherwise cold; I cannot connect). Sound/music is a learned language. As with other languages, what you can understand and what you can taste can vary vastly.

 

For example, the bit of music/sound I loved most these past five years is in all probability

This speaks to me on a gut level. I understand it. And, to me, it's beautiful (granted, as with every other music here posted, youtube sound quality generally doesn't help). It simply floored me the first time I listened to it - and still does. To some of the classically trained friends I play with, it's just noise. It's quite simply not their language.

 

Now that I think about it, one of the great changes brought by the modern ubiquity of almost perfect recordings, may just well be that modern music is now as much the domain of percepts as it was the domain of affects, to borrow Deleuzian terminology.

 

You know the saying "a picture is worth a 1000 words" (or something to that effect), I always find music to be the same. 60 seconds of perfect ambient music is worth a 1000 words trying to describe a location and a situation.

 

This. As with every other art, there's only one rule: if it works, it works.

In the end video game music is a very particular subset, not totally unrelated to film music, but with its own peculiarities (for one, Elliot Goldenthal never really had to write a piece of music that people were going to listen for hundreds of hours, sometimes hours at a time). It doesn't necessarily matter if it stands out on its own, as long as it works in accord with all the other elements.

That being said: I do not favor orchestral music - if only because it's been so overused in the genre. I do not care for live instrumentation.

It doesn't really matter what I favor or care for, though, because I trust the people at Obsidian to make the right choices - that's why I'm investing in the making of the game, and not buying it upon release. I trust they'll make, chose and use what works.

 

On that front, I really liked the music for the Project Eternity trailer: it was perfectly fitting to its purpose.

 

(As I was joking to my friends on the day Project Eternity was announced: they should go with a

hip hop OST. The reactions would be priceless.)