Intelligent, Dangerous Undead

[septembervirgin]

My thoughts return to the excellent (yet derivative to its detriment) haunting story in Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines. The Ocean House Hotel. Now, from a gameplay standpoint I would've wanted to see it develop into a fully fleshed wraith scenario as perceived through the vampiric main character; but they didn't have the time nor the energy I'd guess to hammer out a summary of the setting of Wraith the Oblivion into an interactive branching story set within a huge hotel. It couldn't be huge either, but it was still a nice story without all the window-dressing I'd prefer.

 

All the same, if we have an opportunity to collect stories about the undead, shouldn't these stories be interwoven with a great many subplots that portray the wilting, desperate servants and survivors of catastrophe?

 

Now, I read that customers want liches. There's a way to introduce liches which isn't a short dialogue ending with "Behold the might of Gaxkang!" and there's a way not to introduce liches. Powerful undead sorcerers do not confront parties of powerful adventurers face-to-face. They plot and plan the centuries away with all the cunning of ancient dragons and perhaps with less hubris. Remember, each of the power players in the game world are more likely to be met through their plans and the remnant damage they do, their stay-over forces and strategies of tension. No lich, no vampire is going to play Buffy the Vampire Slayer with anyone if they have any means of escape. Their pride is not greater than their desire to maintain their unlife unless they have marvelous prospect in the infernal reaches.

 

All I can suggest is that the undead who are intelligent act that way. While they have hungers they feed these hungers cleverly, casually handicapping a hundredfold slaves without killing them. They let their victims recover, they nourish in these victims a love of evil and an interpretation of suffering as toughness and virility, of compassion for the hunger of a distant and masterful being (who is actually just a wicked demon or wraith).

[Volourn]

While I agree that intelligent powerful undead aren't prone to throw their unlifes away in a fruitless task.. they also aren't known for their cowardice or shying away from battling adventurers if need. And, they'd likely have an escape plan of some sort if they have the means to do so. Of course, the good things about liches, vamps, and mummies is that their personalities can vary a great deal. Some prefer working behind the scenes, others prefer combating their foes head on, and others just want to be left alone to do unspeakable experiments.

 

In essence, i agree with you though. A lich or vampire should not be treated like skeletons except for being high level fodder. They are complex creatrures/enemies or even potential alliies depending on circumstances.

[cyberarmy]

A powerfull vampire, liches, banshees even a Dracolich maybe. But we are not sure yet how this setting will handle undead. they dont even include vampires, banshees.

 

Maybe soulless people become some intelligent undead like monsters after a while? Or maybe a powerfull soul set itself free from the cycle and start harvesting souls to empower itself more and starts a war against gods?

[agewisdom]

Definitely support this. Even better would be a lich being a high ranking member of the aristocratic order that's been fooling everybody all this time. You might even be working for him, and start suspecting something's wrong as more and more quests you've been performing for him appears to be less heroic and take on a more sinister flavor.

[Sensuki]

Larrel. I already used the Astrolabe quote in another thread so I won't repeat it.

 

There's a bunch of awesome undead creatures I've seen in the Monsters Manuals over the years that I've never had the chance to face.

 

I wouldn't mind

 

Atropal

Boneclaw (Think they were in IWD1)

Bodak

Devourer

Dracolich

Ghosts (AD&D version? )

Mohrg

Nightshade Nightwalker

 

etc

 

and (unrelated), bring back the GELATINOUS CUBE!

[Volourn]

Some of those are used in NWN series.

[Sensuki]

It's been so long since I've played those games that I don't remember. I think there's been a Dracolich somewhere before.

[Theobeau]

The developers have a track record when it comes to clever uses of the undead. Witness:

-PST's take on the undead that was the Dead Nations section: unexpected and poignant.

-Bodhi and her coven were well handled and damned scary in part

 

Agree with the others though that at times, high level undead such as Liches and powerful vampire lords just became monster mobs for the high level adventurer. I hope that this is avoided in PE. Use them as high level manipulators behind the scenes with the final confrontations difficult and challenging, not just fodder for level 25 fireballs or sunstones.

 

PS: Agewisdom's comment about the soul-less becoming like the undead is clever and hopefully something that may be used in the final game!

[Shades]

Seeing more variety in undead enemies would be great. And as mentioned them having some intelligence and meaning behind their actions can add a lot too.

 

I like the idea of finding at least one undead that didn't get that way on purpose, but since they are that way like almost anything they obviously fear this fragment of 'life' that they cling to being put to an end. I think some of the PS:T Dead Nations undead were a bit like that. After all a lot of undead probably didn't come back because they wanted to. Hm, it would be kind of interesting if there was a way to bring the intelligence or mind back to some undead instead of something like turning them. A bit like charming someone, except you don't know what they were like before so it's a mixed bag as to how they'll react (they could continue attacking you, this time with intelligence behind it, they may flee, stand around in confusion, help you etc).

[BruceVC]

Larrel. I already used the Astrolabe quote in another thread so I won't repeat it.

 

There's a bunch of awesome undead creatures I've seen in the Monsters Manuals over the years that I've never had the chance to face.

 

I wouldn't mind

 

Atropal

Boneclaw (Think they were in IWD1)

Bodak

Devourer

Dracolich

Ghosts (AD&D version? )

Mohrg

Nightshade Nightwalker

 

etc

 

and (unrelated), bring back the GELATINOUS CUBE!

 

I definitely support the idea of more intelligent undead in some cases and a variation of undead, good idea.

[Lysen]

Judging by the wallpaper they released, we will have hordes of mindless zombies instead of intelligent undead like in PST or Bloodlines.

[Sensuki]

I think the tentacle monster in it is based off a Chaos Beast of some sort, but I could be wrong

 

[Pangur]

Judging by the wallpaper they released, we will have hordes of mindless zombies instead of intelligent undead like in PST or Bloodlines.

Well, it's really too soon to tell. We don't know if they are zombies, and if they are, mindless undead are not mutually exclusive with intelligent ones.

[TrashMan]

Their pride is not greater than their desire to maintain their unlife unless they have marvelous prospect in the infernal reaches.

 

Wouldn't that depend on the individual?

[Volourn]

"-Bodhi and her coven were well handled and damned scary in part"

 

Bodhi is a BIo creation and none of the Obsidian guys made her. BIS was the publisher not the developer. Still point still stands that MCA and co have done some nice work with undead including both PST and IWD.

 

It should also be pointed out that not all zombies (or skeletons) are braindead. More than a fe examples in the MM (and games) of intelligent ones.

[septembervirgin]

Their pride is not greater than their desire to maintain their unlife unless they have marvelous prospect in the infernal reaches.

 

Wouldn't that depend on the individual?

 

It might depend on the individual to a certain degree but after centuries of unlife, wouldn't they wish to continue their will and existence?

[Volourn]

Sure, but it all depends on the personality as well. Some are going to feel unbeatable since they already beat death once. Afterall, a lich is LICH. A super uyber undead mage - what does he have to fear from punkbutt adventurers in over their heads? Not to mention both vamps and liches (if done in the DnD pnp way) are not so easily killable - liches have phylactaries which they can hide anywhere and vamps can only be killed in certain ways and are not only uber undead but can be any class inclduing mages. Plus, level drain. *shudder*

 

The point is some are gonna ahve no fear and go toe to toe and others will try their best to avoid. Perhaps have an undead that actually fears undeath so much that they avoid encounetrs no matter what and you really have to corner them to trap them and even then they try to find ways out of combat.

[septembervirgin]

I think most liches are familiar with legends of individual heroes who manage to defeat very powerful beings, not to mention bands of heroes that overcome all in their way. No, liches aren't without information resources. I know we're hog wild to fight a lich but I think liches should be like easter eggs (in the earlier sense of the term), surprise events that are hard to get except with a walkthrough. The rarity of an actual lich hanging around to die is approximately equal to the chance a lich wouldn't have the following spells ready: polymorph other, domination, telepathy, teleport self. The lich could easily transform any number of servitors into its genera, dominate them, establish a telepathic link (via spell, not psionics).

 

If liches are like skeletons for highest level characters, they lose their charm. Liches should be scalable individual combatants and not appear en masse. Command officers of the undead, not unlike vampire royalty. Unlike vampires, most interpretations of liches claim they do not need to drain life force (although that's entirely open to the designers' portrayal). Of course, this is just my view of liches, and we all seem to be reading that people want to see liches on the table as an occasional dessert.

 

From a content accessibility standpoint, maybe liches could be the eventual *result* of compiled evil by mortals and undead alike. Instead of being a remarkably capable individual who seeks viable evil paths to maintain their existence and preference towards brutality, liches might be generated by the sheer contamination that the undead wreck, a sort of hive mind director of ghosts and other intangibles. This would make them more common and less prone to solitude, less quick to evade.

 

I mean, we could have stupid liches who don't run from potential greater danger or a lich who is sometimes prone to stupidity, a lich struck silly by the deities of good (who can't provide them with a path of wisdom and kindness). Yet this all seems as insipid as capturing the heroes, leaving them alive, storing their weapons nearby, and letting easily defeated guards roam in close proximity with no instruction as to emergency procedures. Sort of a reverse of "setting traps for wolves" syndrome.

[rjshae]

It would be nice to see some different undead in PE. Perhaps a soul-sucking undead that drains away powers related to the souls of the living? Or a "hive mind" undead that fights in unison? Maybe something eerie that draws upon energy sources, creating a region of miasmic inky darkness? How about a wierd animated form made of different skeleton parts that skitters about like a giant centipede?

[Gatt9]

I would love to see Intelligent undead. Many of the undead are designed around being intelligent and incredibly dangerous to PC's. Sadly, CRPG's treat them as (Borrowing from above) "High level skeletons".

 

Of course, alot of the problem is that pretty much every critter in a CRPG is treated as just a battle. I can't think of a single occasion where I've had critters in a CRPG actually do something other than attack me head on.

 

It's been so long since I've played those games that I don't remember. I think there's been a Dracolich somewhere before.

 

There has. It was either Curse of the Azure Bonds, or Warriors of the Eternal Sun (Sega Genesis). I don't remember which one it was.

[Valorian]

I've always loved fighting undeads in RPGs. They're not only visually extraordinary and appealing from a lore point of view, but it's the variety of special properties that make them the most interesting opponents.

 

From lifeleech to level drain and curses, from a paralyzing touch to presences which cause decay all around them, from the chilling grasp that saps strength and constitution to disease inducing corpses and the dreadful touch of fear .. and so on.

 

Then there's the immunity (or resistance) to sneak and critical hits, to mind affecting spells.. Different tactics are needed to deal with them.

[Bobby Null]

Larrel. I already used the Astrolabe quote in another thread so I won't repeat it.

 

There's a bunch of awesome undead creatures I've seen in the Monsters Manuals over the years that I've never had the chance to face.

 

I wouldn't mind

 

Atropal

Boneclaw (Think they were in IWD1)

Bodak

Devourer

Dracolich

Ghosts (AD&D version? )

Mohrg

Nightshade Nightwalker

 

etc

 

and (unrelated), bring back the GELATINOUS CUBE!

 

Ghosts in PnP can be REALLY challenging. Spring attacking from one wall, draining, and then into another wall. Good times.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yea, ghosts could age you fast too. Those were the days, an entire party alarmed, chips and soda spilled on the table, so greasy and sticky dice at the same time. We often used a blackboard on a table tennis table, so everything and everyone were chalky as well - all looked like ghosts after awhile, and most certainly four in the morning.

[septembervirgin]

Don't forget telekinesis, possession, and the age-old threat of making everyone in the party think it's a nice non-haunted area before luring each off alone and killing them separately.

 

I've always loved fighting undeads in RPGs. They're not only visually extraordinary and appealing from a lore point of view, but it's the variety of special properties that make them the most interesting opponents.

 

From lifeleech to level drain and curses, from a paralyzing touch to presences which cause decay all around them, from the chilling grasp that saps strength and constitution to disease inducing corpses and the dreadful touch of fear .. and so on.

 

Then there's the immunity (or resistance) to sneak and critical hits, to mind affecting spells.. Different tactics are needed to deal with them.

[Larkaloke]

I think a variety of undead is good. Mindless undead, I believe, have their place; but intelligent undead are more fearsome and interesting. I do find it more satisfying to finally face down the powerful lich or vampire or other such creature if it was difficult to track it down in the first place as well.