Optional Expert Mode Features

[IcyDeadPeople]

We learned in Update #9 that the team is working on an "Expert" mode, which will be similar in some ways to Fallout: New Vegas hardcore mode.

 

 

]Expert Mode[/b] will disable all of the common ease-of-use / in-case-you-missed it gameplay elements like the display of skill thresholds, influence/reputation modifiers, and similar "helper" information. In a fashion similar to Fallout: New Vegas' Hardcore Mode, Expert Mode will also enable more punitive and demanding gameplay elements, in and out of combat. We're not saying we're going to have weighty gold (for real, we're not saying that), but if we did, you can bet that would be automatically turned on by Expert Mode.

 

What kind of features do you hope to see in Expert Mode?

 

EDIT: Also, do you feel any of these features should apply to your followers as well, or just the player character?

Edited September 28, 2012 by IcyDeadPeople

[entrerix]

i love locational damage, being able to target specific limbs ala fallout would be fantastic (provided they balanced a bit better than fallout 2s "go for the eyes with a guass rifle = win")

 

or is that not whats meant?

 

even if you cant target limbs, and just suffer locational damage, ala deus ex, well, thats ok too i guess, but not as exciting

[IcyDeadPeople]

i love locational damage, being able to target specific limbs ala fallout would be fantastic (provided they balanced a bit better than fallout 2s "go for the eyes with a guass rifle = win")

 

or is that not whats meant?

 

even if you cant target limbs, and just suffer locational damage, ala deus ex, well, thats ok too i guess, but not as exciting

 

Sure, why not? So you would like to see locational damage affect not only the player, but NPCs and enemies as well?

[Luckmann]

The only thing I don't want out of these is gold having weight. Although that would of course depend on the cost of things in the game, and the wealth system overall.

 

But yeah, that would be a serious dray.

 

" No displays for helper info such as skill thresholds, reputation modifers" I would even consider base in the game. Few things are as immersion-breaking as the game flat-out telling you that "No, you're missing a rank of diplomacy to pick this option" or "You have 50% to win this diplomacy option".

[Archon]

Indeed, a limb damage system would be awesome. For everyone.

Dwarves would do most damage to legs ( slowing opponent ), blunt weapons could break a arm wielding a shield ( reducing defense ), arrows could "go for the eyes" ( reducing accuracy ), etc...

Targeting isn't much important fo a spiritual successor to IE games IMO.

 

I don't know how healing wil be handled in Project Eternity, with potions and/or spells, but limb damage should be treated seperately than "general" health. Maybe at campfire ( if there's any ) or more generally after combat.

 

Also I wish Expert mode won't allow characters to carry twice their weight :D

Edited September 28, 2012 by Archon

[LadyCrimson]

I love locational damage, both for enemies and the player, so I'd vote for that because what I'm largely interested in is more challenging/interesting combat options/situations ... which can include various injury things like wounds/disease ... but I'm not all that into the stuff like hunger/thirst/gold weight because I'm not into micromanaging party non-combat aspects.

[IcyDeadPeople]

I had a lot of fun with a mod for Fallout: New Vegas called Arwen's Realism Tweaks. Obviously, New Vegas features would not necessarily translate well to the world of Project Eternity, and locational limb damage might be more a matter of random dice rolls or special perks/abilities, but as an illustration of what is possible, here is how those features worked in that game:

• Every single battle became tremendously challenging. I had to approach every encounter very carefully, often using traps, like frag mines or explosives in strategic locations, because direct combat with big groups would often result in wounds, burns, crippling injuries, blood loss, infections or potentially death.
  
• If you get hit, you might develop a wound or a burn that you can't heal during combat. You must apply a bandage or stimpak to the wound outside of combat. Bandages can be crafted from cloth scraps (broken down clothing). Burns must be treated
  
• If your wound is not healed, you start losing a lot of blood, and you must to use a a tourniquet (craftable from a belt) to to slow down the bleeding or inject a stimpak into the wound. Must be treated outside of combat.
  
• Bandages, tourniquets, and splints all add stat penalties while they are equipped, and are automatically removed when they are no longer needed.
  
• If you lose too much blood your carry weight goes down by 15 pounds. It can be treated by a blood transfusion, which is craftable out of a blood pack and surgical tubing.
  
• If your wound is not treated quickly, it can become infected. If your infection level gets too high you start continuously losing health unless you treat it with antibiotics.
  
• If your left or right arm is crippled, you can't use rifles or 2-handed melee weapons.
  
• To treat fractured limbs you must to apply a craftable medical brace (outside of combat) for a period of time (a few days or a week) until it heals. For fractured skull or ribs, you must to inject morphine into the fracture (outside of combat). You can only use a doctor's bag if your medicine skill is high enough (I think 50).
  
• Eating food and drinking liquids does not provide HP. Hunger, thirst and sleep rates are customizable to be higher than the vanilla game.
  
• If you don't cook your food it increases your Bacteria Level quickly and if this goes over 5.0, you get Food Poisoning. You gain no benefit from eating while suffering from food poisoning, it just makes you ill.
  
• If you cook your food, but don't eat it within a certain period of time, it spoils, and then if you eat spoiled food, it can increase your bacteria level.
  
• The total carry weight is massively reduced (walking around with some injuries, I can only carry about 70-80 lbs as a 2nd level character with 6 STR). Skill magazines all weigh 1.0 lb and the skill boost is cut in half.
  

Without hunger, thirst, sleep deprivation, etc., I find that encountering food and drink items in loot has very little relevance. After installing mods that add these survival features, or greatly enhance them in the case of FNV, I enjoy the games a great deal more and I certainly enjoy finding food and drink items, or a good resting place.

 

I have a reason to get excited about finding an inn with a fire to warm my bones after wandering the mountains of Skyrim in a blizzard (because otherwise I might die), or a reason to be glad to see an old crusty Salisbury Steak in someone's oven, for example (because I'm suffering from severe starvation stat penalties).

 

In FNV after installing mods, I would actually run out of food and water frequently, and I spent most of the game hobbling around with all my limbs crippled and suffering stat penalties from severe dehydration, hunger and deadly rad poisoning. In fact, I died of dehydration several times! This greatly upped the stakes and made it more fun to role play my character as he struggled to survive in a harsh environment. I was considering my character's perspective and making choices based on what I thought my character would want to do.

Edited September 29, 2012 by IcyDeadPeople

[AzureWatcher]

If it affects me, it should affect NPCs and companions as well.

 

There's no reason that your character is the only person in the entire world that gets hungry, thirsty, and sleepy or suffers wounds or can get sick.

[IcyDeadPeople]

If it affects me, it should affect NPCs and companions as well.

 

There's no reason that your character is the only person in the entire world that gets hungry, thirsty, and sleepy or suffers wounds or can get sick.

 

It could certainly be fun and add to the immersion in the world, however, I imagine it must be incredibly challenging to design A.I. game systems for all the hundreds of NPCs in the world to have needs meters.

[Archon]

Indeed. And it can lead to weird situations: there was a bug in F:NV where all NCR troops at Camp McCarran can suddenly attack ED-E without any apparent reason.

Josh Sawyer ( if i remember correctly ) explained later that all NCR NPCs eventually got hungry at the same time and attacked ED-E if it were carrying food...

 

Maybe "Expert mode" shouldn't be expected as a "Survival mode". Obsidian can surely come up with something balanced, realistic with some kind of magic.

[Killroy]

I am one of the two that really wants to see blood loss.

[Azrayel]

H/T/S makes a game exponentially more real to me; lots of things on that list (locational damage a la Fallout especially) jump out at me, but I want something that gives me a functional reason to visit the tavern and rent a bed for the night besides picking up quests. T'would also make the player house much more interesting, stopping in to rest and stocking the pantry.

 

There could even be a section where the party has encountered one of those sea creatures they've mentioned and their ship takes a walloping; waking up on a small island they need to find someplace safe to sleep, prepare some food and find fresh water (I'm not talking make it MineCraft or DayZ the whole game, but a segment where you've got to do those things in an adventure-y way) would really make for an interesting segment, though I know it's a trope most of us have seen at least once before I find them pleasant in RPGs and particularly rare in the Western variety.

 

Could even throw an overgrown temple on said island, so the set-in-their-ways cRPGers would have a relieving crawl afterwards to soothe any discontentment at having to do real people things in a fantasy RPG?

 

 

Opposite side of the spectrum: infections? That's a little Robertson's Requiem, don't you think?

[metiman]

I like the idea of wounds and blood loss lowering certain stats/abilities the most. Locational damage is also nice. Why people want the stats hidden I haven't the faintest idea.

[Sashaa]

Hunger, Thirst and Sleep Needs should be basical features imho. Gold weight and realistic inventory management are bonuses.

[IcyDeadPeople]

I wonder whether incorporating some of these features into an Expert mode might benefit from certain non-combat skills (for example, herbalism, medicine, cooking, hunting, fishing, etc.,) that would seem to be relatively useless for people who are playing with the Expert mode turned off?

 

I recall Tim mentioning that they would go to some effort to ensure that each non-combat skill would be useful in lots of different areas.

Edited October 1, 2012 by IcyDeadPeople

[WDeranged]

i love locational damage, being able to target specific limbs ala fallout would be fantastic (provided they balanced a bit better than fallout 2s "go for the eyes with a guass rifle = win")

 

or is that not whats meant?

 

even if you cant target limbs, and just suffer locational damage, ala deus ex, well, thats ok too i guess, but not as exciting

 

I didn't much like locational damage in Fallout 1&2, it was amusing for a while but it really does end up with you head/eye shotting everything...apart from when crippling Horrigan's legs won me the game, that was pretty cool

 

Locational damage works really well in third person though, New Vegas and Fallout 3 both have mods which make it something really serious/useful.

[IcyDeadPeople]

Ah the groin shot in Fallout.... even worked on womens! :3

 

I'm not sure we want called shots in PE. Really, can you imagine if you're fighting against overwhelming numbers - and all have auto-aimed to hit your fighters' weapon arm? Careful what you wish for!

 

It could be simply a random chance, perhaps affected by certain perks or abilities.

[Aedelric]

I selected almost everything in the first part.

 

Body location damage like fallout would be perfect, I want my elven archer to shoot a guard in the knee and I want my warrior to kick someone in the privates.

[wormix]

If random body damage or called shots are in the game, I'd like it optional, please and thanks. :3

This really just highlights the problems with adding additional difficulty toggles onto a game. If the game isn't balanced around these additional modes, the difficulty added could range from non-existent to impossible. If you fight generally equal numbers, the additional tactical options are welcome. If you regularly fight hordes of gibberlings, probably not.

 

I think the focus of PE combat difficulty would be getting through the combat, rather than getting through the combat without useless limbs, bleeding from every orifice and being brain dead.

[Sensuki]

The way I interpreted it was

 

Expert mod is like 'classic mode' : ie - no help, no babysitting.

 

think Baldur's Gate 1 / Icewind Dale 1 style.

 

Normal is like : modern features included so that non-IE gamers can relate to the game (quest markers, numerical reputation scores, feedback, max HP after rest, max HP during level up, stuff like that)

[wormix]

[...] Normal is like : modern features included so that non-IE gamers can relate to the game (quest markers, numerical reputation scores, feedback, max HP after rest, max HP during level up, stuff like that)

Not to beat a dead horse but this is a good example of why the game needs to be designed (and balanced) with certain features on or off.

 

You can't just disable quest markers in a game such as Oblivion or Fallout 3, because the game doesn't give you enough information in dialogue to complete the quests without these guides. In Fallout: New Vegas you could disable quest objective markers for the game, as there's enough information given to you in-game for (almost) every quest.

[Vandoon]

I would love to see the part management similar to realms of arkania. Who does which watch, who finds food and herbs. Treating illness and ensuring your party has warm cloths for the weather. Who can cook so you dont become sick.

 

Doesnt anyone remember the fun being 10 days out of town and going through your last pair of shoes and rushing to town before your party all becomes ill and dies.

[IcyDeadPeople]

I would love to see the part management similar to realms of arkania. Who does which watch, who finds food and herbs. Treating illness and ensuring your party has warm cloths for the weather. Who can cook so you dont become sick.

 

Doesnt anyone remember the fun being 10 days out of town and going through your last pair of shoes and rushing to town before your party all becomes ill and dies.

 

Haven't played the game, but this sounds interesting. You would order different party members to gather different materials? Did they have different skills used for these activities?

[IcyDeadPeople]

[...] Normal is like : modern features included so that non-IE gamers can relate to the game (quest markers, numerical reputation scores, feedback, max HP after rest, max HP during level up, stuff like that)

Not to beat a dead horse but this is a good example of why the game needs to be designed (and balanced) with certain features on or off.

 

You can't just disable quest markers in a game such as Oblivion or Fallout 3, because the game doesn't give you enough information in dialogue to complete the quests without these guides. In Fallout: New Vegas you could disable quest objective markers for the game, as there's enough information given to you in-game for (almost) every quest.

 

Good point, particularly for a hub and spoke sort of game as I understand Project Eternity will be. In an open world game like the examples you gave, although better location descriptions in the quest log would have been welcome (and there may be some mods that do this), you can still collect dozens of quests and roam around until you stumble upon landmarks or areas near the quest. A hub and spoke world isn't really designed for this kind of exploration.

[Shaewaros]

I approve almost all the poll options, although I'm not sure whether eating is really a necessary feature in PE. Majority of voters seem to agree that the game should not display reputation modifiers or skill thresholds and I also agree - Fallout did this perfectly. Please, Obsidian, do not tell us how much charisma we need to persuade someone or how much lockpicking skill we need to open a certain lock. Pretty please.