Tropes vs Women

[General_Disarray]

I wouldn't trust Anita with anything of more substance that the degree she wipes her arse with SPEAKING AS WOMYN RATHER THAN A SEXIST MYN.

[Estelindis]

I think Anita's great. However, I don't think that Obsidian need her help. They've already shown themselves to be more than capable of writing nuanced characters of both genders.

[CosmicCommander]

The thing with Ms. Sarkeesian's work is that it's not particularly academic, and she shoots down any female characters that don't conform to her vague definition of what a woman should be: she's up in arms if a woman is too promiscuous, too shy, too headstrong, too angry, or so on. I think Obsidian are good enough writers to make some extremely well-written and diverse characters regardless of gender. Every character is an individual, and we should look at them that way instead of being up-in-arms on what we think they should do as a member of their gender. There may be a damsel in distress in Eternity, but there may also be a warrior queen or such; just enjoy the characters, I say.

 

Also, here's a nice critique on Sarkeesian's work:

 

http://youtu.be/p6gLmcS3-NI

http://youtu.be/LpFk5F-S_hI

Edited September 23, 2012 by CosmicCommander

[Meshugger]

Again with the simplistic ideas just to fit an agenda. Shoo-shooo! The lot of you.

 

Isn't it more interesting to have a gameworld with conflicting ideas and cultures, where each action is an organic reaction to previous ones?

[draft1983]

And no, i don;t think we need a femenist hanging around. They don't want equality, they want the world to revolve around them and only them.

philosoraptor.jpg

If feminists don't want gender equality, then who does?

 

i'm not a sexist guy, i'm all for equality now matter where from, what sex or which colour of skin. But feminists now are far past equailty, just as health and safety is getting rediculous, they want more and more. All feminists i have ever come across are always extremely arrogant, and self absorbed, just because they are female.

[Meshugger]

I forgot, these kinds of people like Ravel in PS:T becuase she was a woman, not because she was a interesting character in herself. Talk about having a superficial and banal attitude.

 

Sho-shooo!

[dan107]

I don't want to get too deep into this, but IMO there are few things more ridiculous in fantasy games than to have armies, bands of thugs, etc made up of 50/50 men and women. It just looks utterly fake and a result of some overzealous designer trying to make a statement at the expense of good game design.

 

Having said that, there is a place for strong female characters in fantasy, but definitely not in terms of being equal to men vis a vis physical aggressiveness or abilities. See Game of Thrones for good examples.

Edited September 23, 2012 by dan107

[soulsource]

Some claim that Sarkeesian exploits the equality topic just to become famous. I don't think these rumours are true in any way, but there are enough people out there who do and who might attack a game in whichs development she is involved.

 

The whole point about character assination is exactly this. Create enough negativity around an individual so that they or their endeavours are discredited. If a project or group decided not pursue a project with her because of the rumours on the internet, then the harrasment achieved it's purpose.

 

I agree with you on this. It's very sad, but nevertheless true.

 

I agree that the issue is important, so if the developers want to have a focus on gender studies, I suggest them to ask a scientific institute for help, not a youtube phenomenon.

 

Gender relations is a sociological issue. There is no "scientific institute" that has the final word. Certainly when talking about overused, unproductive female tropes in video game culture, the "experts" in the field will be those gamers most cognisant and effected by it.

 

That's also true, of course. Nevertheless, there are experts on the field. For instance here at Linz University there's a whole department focussed on gender studies. The people who work there are mainly social scientists, who study the phenomena, but there are also philosophers and ethicists that assess projects and counsel companies on the topic.

[Longknife]

Some claim that Sarkeesian exploits the equality topic just to become famous. I don't think these rumours are true in any way, but there are enough people out there who do and who might attack a game in whichs development she is involved.

 

The whole point about character assination is exactly this. Create enough negativity around an individual so that they or their endeavours are discredited. If a project or group decided not pursue a project with her because of the rumours on the internet, then the harrasment achieved it's purpose.

 

 

I'd never heard of this lady until this thread, and while I do agree there seems to be a lot of unneccesary hate towards her trying to discredit her....

 

She honestly doesn't seem that credible to begin with. :U I just mean the quality of her work seems poor. Watched the above posted criticism vids of her work along with some of her channel vids, and although I think the criticism vids themselves were quite poor aswell, she DOES seem like a follower and not a thinker. As in, she's basically quoting what she learned in her studies, applying it to media, then she seems incapable of expanding from there. One person for example pointed out how she applies "the Smurfette Principle" (a show with only one token female that's basically the personification of her sexuality) to the Big Bang Theory and gave a point about how they thought the show doesn't actually fall under that trope because Penny being the only female is justified by the show's premise (it's a show about nerds. If anything, she's kind of a tool used to reinforce the nerd trope, if anything, since part of the nerd trope is that nerds can't get womenz), and her response was nothing more than "just because you like the show doesn't mean it's not guilty of the trope," which didn't actually address the person's point at all and just immediately dismissed the person's rather fair point altogether.

The criticism vid also shows her statement on how media portrays men and women and how she would LIKE it to portray men and women, and the only difference is that she added negative stereotypes of men and even left the negative ones for women....which seems odd, because you'd think the first goal would be to get rid of the negative stereotypes for both men and women, no? In that sense, it doesn't seem as though she's actually stated a PURPOSE or a GOAL behind her work, at least not clear enough. As I said, the criticism vid was poorly done itself, imo, but I think he did hit the nail on the head about her basically being nothing more than a student.

 

 

Long story short, while I think the degree of hate she gets is definitely uncalled for, I also don't think she's in any way qualified to be the face of feminism in video games. She does a lot of rigid lecturing and telling, not so much productive discussion and debate.

[TrashMan]

 

On the other hand, I really liked that in Arcanum the physical starting attributes were slightly different (but overall balanced), depending on the characters sex. It would give the game realism, yet it's a dangerous thing to do, regarding negative publicity.

 

I agree with that.

 

Those that complain are those that dont' want to accept reality OR don't want it in their game.

 

Men and women aren't the same! Big shocking relevation!....

[TrashMan]

The problem is not the tropes but the lack of representation beyond the tropes.

 

For example, let's say that there are ten Chinese characters in a story and nine of them are evil. Even if all those characters are well written and fully realized, the main representation of Chinese people in the story is that they're evil. Now let's say that there are 100 Caucasian characters in that same story and twenty of them are evil. Even though there are more evil Caucasian characters, it's not as bad due to the fact that Caucasians in other roles get a lot more representation.

 

You can have those tropes as long as you have adequate representation of other roles. You can have damsels in distress and evil temptresses and other tropes, as long as they don't constitute a big percentage of all women in the game. Just like how you can have male stereotypes like dumb jocks and sexless nerds and evil rapists as long as they don't constitute a big percentage of all male characters.

 

Really? So now it's about statistics? Games aren't some poilitical propaganda or social comentary. Neither should they be forced to be so.

I frankly don't care about percentages.

I don't care if 1 cacussian is evil or if 99 of them are.

 

Peopel should stop trying to force their own politicla agendas onto developers and let them do whatever they want.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Isn't it more interesting to have a gameworld with conflicting ideas and cultures, where each action is an organic reaction to previous ones?

 

Yes.

 

Whenever videogames attempt serious contemporary issues it usually comes across as transparent. I think a sprinkling here and there of social, economic, racial, etc issues is a great thing for an RPG but I'd rather they reflect the world of the game I'm playing, not my own. Let the developers show some creativity not just reactivity. I seriously do not want an "Earth 2012" cRPG.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Right, so ignoring the whole "virtues of feminism" debate, I'll just quickly state my opinion and leave.

 

It's quite nearly as damaging to our culture to ignore historical persecution as it is to support current stereotypes. You wouldn't set a story in the fantasy Antebellum South and have racial equality as the norm, nor would you have workers rights in the fantasy Industrial Revolution (Arcanum did this right, imo). On the other hand, historical supression of women has never stopped women from becoming great figures: in Egil's Saga, you have women's lives being decided by men wholly and entirely, and you also have Queen Gunnhild going around being awesome. This should be recognized. I'd prefer to see a situation where the opression of women is displayed, and the consequences of this evil are shown, and in spite of this great women work their heroism and villainy across the world.

[Estelindis]

Really? So now it's about statistics? Games aren't some poilitical propaganda or social comentary. Neither should they be forced to be so.

I frankly don't care about percentages.

I don't care if 1 cacussian is evil or if 99 of them are.

You say you don't care, but how often has your apathy been genuinely tested? How many examples can you give of works that have negatively stereotyped an overwhelming majority of the characters who have the same demographic, sex, and/or ethnicity as yourself? It's easy to say that you don't care about this happening to Caucasian characters if, in fact, there's very little chance of this actually happening to Caucasian characters.

 

The fact of the matter is that everyone has prejudices. There's no such thing as the totally unbiased mind. While devs try to focus on writing an intriguing world and story rather than political propaganda, I think they also have to try to be aware of their own biases and try to work around them. Otherwise, works can end up being hopelessly dated when a particular prejudice is overcome but people still see it in the game/book/film/what-have-you.

[Badmojo]

For the tears of weaping angels, not THIS topic again. I see this topic on EVERY-SINGLE-FORUM regardless if its games, movies, tv shows, books, comics..etc. To say I am sick to death of it is a vast understatment.

 

It is a fantasy setting, I really do NOT want it to be politically correct game. You know the trope I am sick of seeing? The strong independent women who needs no man, that has been in most games. Seriously, the op mentions the princess needs help trope, but honeslty I can't think of many games outside of japan games that even use that trope. I would LOVE to see that trope used, I WANT to save a princess(hell, just have the princess AND the prince kidnapped, there you can save both). Is that wrong? NO, it isn't. I hate games where you are supposed to believe there is no sexism/racism going around and everyone gets along just spiffy. Those are boring and have been overdone to death because publishers do not want to offend anybody. I also hate games that try to introduce it, but with a non human token race to avoid offending everybody, please make this a mature game and that intruduces REAL mature issues.

[hideo kuze]

I also agree that there should be all varieties of women and men in the game (young-old, skinny-obese, rich-poor, beautiful-ugly, mighty-powerless,...), in all social positions and I think that implementing "sexy" non-functional armour would ruin the games atmosphere (except of course if it also were non-functional ingame: Chain Mail Bikini: Armor Rating 0).

On the other hand, I really liked that in Arcanum the physical starting attributes were slightly different (but overall balanced), depending on the characters sex. It would give the game realism, yet it's a dangerous thing to do, regarding negative publicity.

 

That said, one final remark: I don't have anything against erotics and sex in games, as long as they stay confined to situations where they fit the atmosphere.

Agreed.

 

What I want is for (1) the world to make sense and for me (2) to be given the chance to cause changes in it.

Also, there should be conflict in that world and allow the player to take sides or impose his own. This is not a my little pony world.

 

(1)

- if women are warriors, let them be wear light plate armor like Joan of Arc

- if they are harlots in a tavern, let them show cleavage

- if they are clerics of a church, let them be humble and in appropriate robes

- if they are witches or priestesses of an evil cult, and if the occasion fits, let them be virtually naked and act like sex succubus to charm/seduce the PC or some of his companions (Ulysses and sirens anyone?) when outside of battle (non-combat skills). And if the player is smart, let him dispel her illusion spell and see her true form.

 

(2)

- if I want to play as a paladin preaching gender equality, human/elf/dwarf rights, and race equality, then let me do so

- if I want to play to play as a misogynist slaver, then give me that possibility (and before someone comes preaching "that is wrong mkay", let me say that I'd also love to have a drow alike race where females are in charge, due to cultural reasons, strength or plain intelligence)

 

This is not a "let me shove my morals upon you and teach you about democracy with the use of lethal force"

THIS IS SPARTA a cRPG!

Edited September 23, 2012 by hideo kuze

[Estelindis]

What I want is for (1) the world to make sense and for me (2) to be given the chance to cause changes in it.

 

(1)

- if women are warriors, let them be wear light plate armor like Joan of Arc

- if they are harlots in a tavern, let them show cleavage

- if they are clerics of a church, let them be humble and in appropriate robes

- if they are witches or priestesses of an evil cult, and if the occasion fits, let them be virtually naked and act like sex succubus to charm/seduce the PC or some of his companions (Ulysses and sirens anyone?) when outside of battle (non-combat skills). And if the player is smart, let him dispel her illusion spell and see her true form.

 

(2)

- if I want to play as a paladin preaching gender equality, human/elf/dwarf rights, and race equality, then let me do so

- if I want to play to play as a misogynist slaver, then give me that possibility (and before someone comes preaching "that is wrong mkay", let me say that I'd also love to have a drow alike race where females are in charge, due to cultural reasons, strength or plain intelligence)

 

This is not a "let me shove my morals upon you and teach you about democracy with the use of lethal force"

THIS IS SPARTA a cRPG!

I agree with you very much. Certainly it's wrong to be a misogynist, but it's wrong to do lots of the things that one can choose to roleplay in a game, e.g. stealing, thieving, etc. Only with choice can one's character be evil or good.

[Rostere]

What is it with people trying to turn a fantasy world from a different age/time/dimension into a carbon copy of our own? I want to see the world of PE in all it's ugliness and grit. I want to see context-appropriate sexism, racism, and all those other -isms people get their panties in a wad over in our own world. I want to see the ugliness of humanity/elvenkind/whatever in full representation and in contrast to all the good qualities of the people of PE.

 

Just don't try to shoehorn 21st century Earth sensibilities into the game where they won't be appropriate.

You are completely right! And I would also like female warriors to be rare to non- existent, some type of headcovering being the norm for married women, and attention given to women's historically subordinate role in society. On the other hand, gender equality is on top of my political priorities IRL. I don't see how these two viewpoints conflict with each other. In fact, a woman who is unhappy about her role in society could be an interesting NPC.

[mya79]

I am player women and please I would more realistic for the armor for women, I don't want a style Lara Croft or with big boobs for fanbase male. I am ok for variety for women : fat, ugly, beauty, etc...

[novander]

It is a fantasy setting, I really do NOT want it to be politically correct game. You know the trope I am sick of seeing? The strong independent women who needs no man, that has been in most games. (...) I hate games where you are supposed to believe there is no sexism/racism going around and everyone gets along just spiffy. Those are boring and have been overdone to death because publishers do not want to offend anybody.

I think the OP is more asking for female characters who actually have their own character and personality, not just another female trope, even one arguably seen as positive sexism.

 

I do want a politically correct game, not in the sense that everyone gets along all happy and smiley - I agree, that would be boring - but in the sense that racism is highlighted as vile, and that female characters get equal screentime and agency within the world.

 

I don't like the argument "it's a fantasy setting", it's rings too similar to "it's just a game." The problem is that games don't exist in a vacuum. Selling a fantasy setting where most of the female characters players meet work as prostitutes to an audience that is - let's face it - mostly male may seem like good marketing, but would only end up reinforcing the notion of women as sex objects. (I'd like to make it clear I'm not suggesting that this is what Obsidian plan on doing, I'm just using it as an example.)

 

That said, I don't think Obsidian need Sarkeesian's help on this, they've shown themselves pretty good in this regard already. I donated to her kickstarter and look forward to seeing the results. I may not agree with everything she says, but oh man did it piss me off that people were saying she shouldn't be doing this. The reaction to the video - provoked or not, I choose to believe not - shows that someone really does need to highlight the gender politics of gaming.

[Thulean]

I am player women and please I would more realistic for the armor for women, I don't want a style Lara Croft or with big boobs for fanbase male. I am ok for variety for women : fat, ugly, beauty, etc...

 

Interesting choice of avatar there...

Edited September 23, 2012 by Thulean

[Badmojo]

I am player women and please I would more realistic for the armor for women, I don't want a style Lara Croft or with big boobs for fanbase male. I am ok for variety for women : fat, ugly, beauty, etc...

 

Interesting choice of avatar there...

 

Exactly what I was thinking

Edited September 23, 2012 by Badmojo

[Orogun01]

Has anyone considered that skimpy outfits may indeed have higher armor ratings? I mean, who's going to try and kill a half naked woman?

 

And on another note: Feminism vs. Women, or how focusing on fictional archetypes is more important than creating real role models that actually impact the real world.

Just another 15 minutes of fame in the disposable cult of celebrity.

[lord of flies]

Anita Sarkeesian has really banal commentary. Get the lady behind Requires Only That You Hate involved. She's even a Planescape fan! It's a match made in heaven.

 

I'd like to note now that all too often fantasy settings (or even fictional reproductions of real-world history) engage in "historical misogyny" that is nothing of the sort. The forms which modern misogyny takes are very different from the forms it took in the 6th century, the 11th century, the 16th century, and indeed even the 19th century.

[Wintersong]

So if guns are in, for some it's not medieval fantasy. If women are treated like in modern times instead of medieval times, that's ok though.

 

Do I understand that an ingame "Good" society ruled by women and that has men as second class citizens would be ok? But an ingame "Good" society ruled by men and that has women as second class citizens would not be ok?

 

I'd prefer having different types of societies with their different cultures and social structures. "Fantasy" world is "Fantasy". As long as there isn't any hidden agenda behind any of the stuff, I won't feel offended by social structures that don't resemble my preferences. And suffer any possible consequences of character creation in the process.

 

 

By the way, Theoeau has "Obdisian" in his title? O_o