Meta-dungeons, for Obsidian to consider.

[Margaretha]

This fellow comrad over there seemed to ask for one ("Meta-dungeons. I want one. With tunnels."). It stroke me curious. I have played many CRPGs, but this concept, I did not know. It seemed popular enough to be called that way without further explanation, but I could not grasp its meaning. You Americans can be so surprising. I was genuinely curious and it took me some time to realise I misread the title. I had smelt a scent; but *it* wasn't here.

 

Now I'm left alone with it.

 

What is a meta-dungeon? Why or how should Obsidian make one in Project Eternity?

 

Meta is one of these words/prefixes/greek-wanamingos not always understood or properly used, but often found in these times of Internet, along with "virtual" or some others I cannot figure right now. XML is a metalanguage, as in "a sort of language for describing another language": fine. Steam achievements are called "meta" as in "a game above the game". Now, you'll define "metacarpus" as a bone spatially close to the carpus. But there is not one easy definition of metaphysics, is it? Meta-dungeons (or even... metadungeons) would benefit from being known, if only we could give as good definitions and examples as we can, from which one would arise. This is where you come in.

 

[proposition]

I'll try, you will do the same. If one of us comes up with a good idea in the end, we will notice.

 

Pre-definition: a meta-dungeon is er... something er... potentially fun and cool... in a CRPG. DON'T BE SHY, soldier, push it, push it hard show me your wawa! your_head.pop()!

Fine... a definition: a meta-dungeon is... no, wait. First, what is a dungeon? a trivial definition, not exception-proof. Remove the flesh, keep the bones: confinement, (incremental) spatial progression, danger, reward, exit (the end). Add in some flavor (not too much): verticality, dereliction, stone, traps, monsters, loot, final challenge. Now, we make something meta out of it.

A definition: a meta-dungeon is a course of events involving no dungeon nor any of its required steps as defined, but forcing the characters to take steps in parallel that could be defined as the steps required to define a course of events as a dungeon.

An example (?): Heroes arrive in this fortified village in the middle of Forest Nowhere. Camera sequence. An alarm: big wolf-beasts are back to harass the people, the doors are shut down. Some old curse. To get rid of it, you have to progress from one villager to another until you can finally convince the tavernkeeper to activate the old defense mechanism in his basement. But each NPC hates some each other and you have to convince one after the other to help the next-other. The stonemason (stone) won't help you until you could convice the old crazy (dereliction) ermit in the attic (verticality) of the temple to do something about the child catching (traps) mutant frogs (monsters), who won't do anything unless his cousin (...) at the end, the tavernkeeper is fed to the wolf-beasts (final challenge), they leave and you can leave too (exit).

 

Or, maybe, a meta-dungeon is something completely different, you tell me. Help me help the game. You know the rules.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Margaretha

[eimatshya]

Well if we define a dungeon as a bounded area with an entrance and end goal and a number of sub areas filled with dangerous obstacles between the two that the player must navigate to complete some task (finding treasure, rescuing someone, defeating a great evil), then a meta dungeon would be the overarching setting that houses a collection of dungeons. So, a meta-dungeon is the RPG's campaign itself. For example, the individual dungeons of D'arnise Keep, Irenicus' Lair, Spellhold, that place where Firkraag is holed up, the Underdark, the Illithid lair, and Suldanesselar are all subsumed under the meta-dungeon Baldur's Gate II (and since the Illithid Lair is in the Underdark, the underdark is also a meta-dungeon for the Illithid lair making BG II a Meta-Meta-Dungeon). Each of the dungeons serves as one of the sub areas filled with obstacles that the player must traverse to get from the beginning of the campaign (a bounded area) to the final goal (defeating Irenicus/your divine nature) making BG II the dungeon one step above, or Meta, the individual dungeons that it is composed of.

Edited September 22, 2012 by eimatshya

[Monte Carlo]

er, its mega dungeon

[Fooine]

The guy said a mega-dungeon. With a g. As in a big dungeon. Not a meta-dungeon.

 

We don't have to dwelve into the subject of dungeons about dungeons or dungeons within dungeons.

 

Unless you were making a joke. In which case I'm sorry for taking it so seriously.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Fooine

[Margaretha]

@eimatshya: Yes, that popped from my mind too, but wouldn't we feel more comfortable calling the meta-dungeon you describe as a recursive dungeon? is metaphysics recursive physics, etc.? I'm sure we could find something better.

 

@Fooine: Yes we have to seriously dwelve into the subject of meta-dungeons (with or without tunnels). More so we actually must find out why Obsidian should implement one.

 

[proposition]

A definition: a meta-dungeon is a dungeon effectively traveled by the hero, without the hero setting a foot inside. The dungeon is never shown to the player.

An example: the hero's involvement could include some soul fragment stolen from him (her) by a telepathic creature, sealing itself inside the dungeon. The hero figures a way to take enough control of the creature so he can give it orders. For the creature to fight its way up (or down) to the exit (and the hero's hands), the hero will have to help the creature removing obstacles. The hero cannot see from the creature's eyes and cannot take direct control of its body, but he receives data as puzzles to complete, dialogue options and involvement of a third party.

[metiman]

Perhaps a meta-dungeon could be seen as all of the narrow winding passages that the game designers/programmers have to mentally go through to actually make the dungeon. Or maybe the Obsidian offices could be seen as a meta-dungeon. A dungeon that is used to make other dungeons.

[Monte Carlo]

Of course, you could just call it an Anomalous Subsurface Environment...

 

http://www.lulu.com/shop/patrick-wetmore/ase1-anomalous-subsurface-environment-standard-paper/paperback/product-15874202.html

[Umberlin]

Of course, you could just call it an Anomalous Subsurface Environment...

 

http://www.lulu.com/...t-15874202.html

 

What if it's a tower Dungeon lancing upward, strikingly, toward the stars like an ominous spear impaling the earth?

[Monte Carlo]

Then it's a disturbing piece of phallic anxiety, perhaps

[CalamityDrive]

This is an idea that has a lot of merit, but I'm not sure if and how it could be implemented in Project Eternity. For something to be a meta-dungeon, it should be as removed from the normal game as the Steam meta-achievements are. It could be, for example, a completely independent, script-controlled dungeon dwelling game that takes its input from dungeon exploring events that happen in the main game. Any loot procured from this meta-dungeon could be mailed and delivered to the player character's stronghold. It should be interesting modding material, at least.

[Tigranes]

Parody and meta-stuff is, in the vast majority of cases, only funny or refreshing because it breaks the mold. When it becomes a full-fledged thing, it's rarely attention-grabbing, and more often becomes irritating.

[DocDoomII]

What is this, I don't even...

 

Anything can be something similar to a dungeon, even if it is not exactly a dungeon.

A huge mansions with 2-3 floors filled with private guards is a good example.

[Ieo]

What is this, I don't even...

 

Anything can be something similar to a dungeon, even if it is not exactly a dungeon.

A huge mansions with 2-3 floors filled with private guards is a good example.

 

I think the OP misread/misunderstood the original proposition as "meta" instead of what it actually was, the mega-dungeon, in which case we're already getting the mega-dungeon. And I think one 14-level mega-dungeon is far, far enough for Project Eternity, you'rewelcomeverymuch. Edit: The random modron maze was kinda fun; one level of that in the mega-dungeon might be tolerable. Maybe.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Ieo

[Wench]

Meta dungeon... thinking a dungeon that is full of all sort of stupid RPG tropes that the characters would either see straight through or be completely obvious to. The alternative would be a dungeon that is so horrible you can only compete it by metagaming with foreknowledge.

[judeobscure]

this was my my idea for a 'meta' dungeon. inspired by the james egbert d & d urban legend and the moral/satanic panic that was beginning to take hold in the late 70s/early 80s.

http://en.wikipedia....llas_Egbert_III

http://ptgptb.org/0006/egbert.html

 

would love to hear you guys' thoughts. i think some of the criticisms of 'meta' discussed earlier in this thread certainly apply but im wondering if it has any game design merit beyond that; ie, would it be fun or interesting and/or does it even make sense and could it actually be implemented. it was just an idea that popped in my head after the kickstarter. not trying to piss anyone off, not trying to tell obsidian my idea is better than theirs, just something to share and talk about. im as excited as you guys are about p:e.

 

best

js

 

'gygax dungeon, and dragon.'

 

during your travels, even as you become a legend, you hear stories. and as you draw near the end of your quest you start to fear the worst could be true. that you've yet to face your greatest challenge. but how much have you got left? your legend can't go on forever.

 

the whispers are that there's a man who has lured a generation of children to a cave, promising them a game to play with all the other children of the world.

 

just as many fathers have been forced to go into the dungeon looking for their children, knowing none of the others have ever come back. and a generation of mothers have become ghosts and witches, waiting for death in the saddest villages you've ever seen. the cave becomes worse than a dungeon. what have you fought all this time for if this blackness will eventually drown the countryside. hope?

 

stop and take a screenshot of the flowers and look at the sky from under a beautiful hand-painted tree before you come here b/c this isn't a place you will come back from. just one last thing to do.

 

if you make it to the end of the dungeon, gygax the dragon waits for you. but he's been waiting in torment b/c you're his slayer and savior. if you survive.

 

in his dragon form he will try to destroy you b/c you've survived his dungeon and you threaten to end his game.

 

but when you beat him you free the man who became twisted and transformed and needed the game to be real. in the end he became all the things in the world he longed to escape from with 'the game'. and so much worse. you defeated the closest thing to pure evil you ever imagined. but now evil is just a man.

 

he opens a door to a 'basement' and you follow him into a hidden '16th level'. but its not really another level of the dungeon. this is a different kind of place you remember. its been so long since you'd been around normal. and you sit down with gygax, the man. for a pen and paper game of d & d.

 

the game goes into top down, first person or isometric view and you play.

 

if you win a portal opens. and you watch gygax the boy return to the place where good intentions and abominable monsters come from.

 

but now its time for your good deed to be punished and you are left there, all alone at the bottom of the dungeon and things are more different now than ever before.

 

you have become gygax the dragon, the dungeon master in your basement and you see yourself anew. all new skills, powers, weaknesses and with a complete respec. you also see all the 'dragon class' items that you unknowingly picked up when you were making your way through the dungeon in human form. but after respeccing and re-arming and armoring yourself you level up and find a new set of points to allocate. that's right, your reward for beating the dragon at the end of the 15th level is to be absorbed by him.

 

now here, in the 16th level, the 'basement', at the d & d table you get to re-design the dungeon, rightfully, as the new dungeon master. after you redesign the 15 levels- all the traps, mazes, illusions, trap doors, etc. you place all the monsters where you want them, re-allocate all the monster points and skills, etc. and then the end comes and your fate as gygax is sealed, there, waiting to make your game real for someone else.

 

and then our 'end game' begins.

 

if you click on the portal in the basement it takes you to the obsidian 'end game' archive where your hero's human and dragon profiles are uploaded along with your new redesigned dungeon.

 

and now you re-roll. you begin a new character if you like and your new experience in project: eternity starts just as you would expect.

 

if you make it back to the dungeon with a new character your previous hero will be available to you as a companion, part of your party; and respeccable. and each time you beat gygax the dragon he absorbs the souls of all the heroes (not companions) that are in your party when you defeat him. this also determines how many additional points he gets to allocate after you respec him once he absorbs you and you become the new dungeon master. and each time you beat the game with a new hero, that hero becomes available for the next time you make it to the dungeon. eventually your whole party could be all heroes, all heroes you know very well and have mastered. but each time gygax is gaining the strength of multiple heroes.

 

after you beat the dungeon the first time and take the form of gygax you also unlock the ability to download and play a dungeon from the obsidian 'end game' database. of course you can also play through normally as if facing gygax for the first time with each new character you make. or you can fight the gygax from your previous hero's journey, at which point your previous hero will be available to use in your party. after defeating the dungeon the first time you also unlock the ability to play all subsequent dungeon battles against gygax as either the heroes or as gygax ,or to play against yourself as both.

 

eventually you won't be able to defeat gygax, even with an entire party of heroes. and maybe no one else can either.

 

in the 'end game' database you will be able to see where/how your dragon stacks up against the other dragons that have been created and defeated, etc.

 

eventually the top of the top will emerge and there will be a 'high scores' list of sorts.

 

the top 10 dragons in the 'end game database' will also be playable in a special dungeon mode called 'dragonax'. you get to play as one of the 'high score' dragons to see if you can defeat the other 'high score' dungeons and dragons. your performance and stats will all be part of an uploadable game file to be seen by all of us. and the 'high score' list will always be evolving/changing the more people play.

[khango]

You could have an enchanted Tamagotchi where the virtual pet is a 32 year old pizza delivery guy with a trash-filled studio apartment who gets his application to Harvard rejected every year.

[Suen]

The heroes activate a weird machine:

"You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike..."

[Kiarean]

Okay, sure,I'll take the OP at face value. A Meta-dungeon is something that resembles a traditional dungeon but breaks one or two of the standard paradigms. Mostly commonly, a Meta-Dungeon is one that does not take place in an enclosed environment, but that still restricts their freedom of of movement in some manner. An example of this kind of meta-dungeon would be an enchanted forest that disorients anyone who enters, preventing them from traversing it.

[Katrar]

I'm pretty sure that every time I show up to work in the morning, I have entered a meta-dungeon.

[Margaretha]

We have some good ideas here. Thanks people, and Wench and judeobscure and Suen and Klarean! (Grumpy Tigrane, you should make an effort).

 

@judeobscure Hmm! it's prolific and full of ideas. Meta intertwined. The game master, inside his own game, as a teller, a rewarder, a mob...

 

Looking after references... : Some of it, we may find in Witcher 2... Psychonauts (

the hero's size is reduced, he finds himself trapped into a roleplaying game or a wargame), How good was that? (fun in my opinion, but "how" fun?). Also, you put something more. Something surreal, hm. Good brain food, and: "meta" for sure!

 

*rubbing hands* Whatever it will be, aren't you glad and proud and excited when you've learned Obsidian decided to put into the game a 15 "levels" meta-dugeon?? It's a bit thanks to us here, from this forum thread! I am so glad I have to pee...

 

What do you thing they mean by "levels"?

 

How do PayPal backers affect the Meta Dungeon size?

It counts toward the Meta Dungeon! We hit fifteen (15!!!!) levels!

(source)

Edited October 22, 2012 by Margaretha

[rjshae]

In terms of a mega-underground dungeon, something I'd like to see is a huge sprawling, three-dimensional complex that you explore by following passages along the equivalent of an overland map. DA:O had something like that, except the map was already laid out, and you basically just selected the box you wanted to travel to. What I'd prefer instead is a maze-like map that gets drawn as you explore it, with the individual open locations represented by game areas. The tunnels can join up or branch, pass under each other, and generally run for kilometers at a stretch. You just click to indicate which tunnel you follow, and, of course, you can return to previously entered areas by clicking on those (with the risk of random encounters along tunnel passages).

[jivex5k]

You could have an enchanted Tamagotchi where the virtual pet is a 32 year old pizza delivery guy with a trash-filled studio apartment who gets his application to Harvard rejected every year.

Do you know me or something?

[Veeno]

<snip>

 

Good lord you like to write...

 

A meta-dungeon (abiding by the standard meaning of the prefix "meta-") can be either

 

a) a dungeon composed of dungeons, or

b) a dungeon inside a dungeon.

 

It seems to me that b) is just... continuation of the same dungeon, so it obviously needs to be a), however the hell you'd actually make "a dungeon composed of dungeon" without it just being a dungeon.

 

But I feel the OP will want me to go derper than that.

[Calmar]

<snip>

 

Good lord you like to write...

 

A meta-dungeon (abiding by the standard meaning of the prefix "meta-") can be either

 

a) a dungeon composed of dungeons, or

b) a dungeon inside a dungeon.

 

It seems to me that b) is just... continuation of the same dungeon, so it obviously needs to be a), however the hell you'd actually make "a dungeon composed of dungeon" without it just being a dungeon.

 

But I feel the OP will want me to go derper than that.

 

If you are trapped in a dungeon within a dungeon,

? Edited October 22, 2012 by Calmar

[MaximKat]

So much text, just because someone can't read...