[Merged] Gods save us another romance thread

[Amentep]

I think your use of "you" here is confusing, since we'd be talking about the character in game and not the player, but it seems to be you think that its the player who has the "relationship" with the companion in game.

 

Well, this is one of the things which puzzles me. I mean...are you saying people really want Shepard to get busy with a blue alien? Because that doesn't make any sense. At all. It does nothing to propel the story or game.

 

Its an option for the player to define their character if they choose to do so. Most side-quests don't propel the story forward (does getting Nirali Bhatia's body back to Suresh (or choosing to ignore him or side with the agent) actually propel the story forward? Or does it simply offer a way to define the PC and the world they live in?) I think when we see passion - and maybe I'm wrong - for romances its an outgrowth of passion for one's PC and the investment in that character.

 

The problem with most romances is "they just seem to happen" (which, iirc, is actually female Shepard's response in the Liara romance at one point). However, using Jade Empire as an example, I kind of felt that it was natural for the male PC to want a romantic relationship with Dawn Star (who very easily could have been a romantic figure in his life for years since they've grown up together.) Or not - the PC could very well see Dawn Star as a childhood friend and never think of her that way. But again the player gets an opportunity to stake out that part of the background of their character.

 

Of course, if the player wanted to they could incorporate this into the background of the character whether the game supported it or not (using the idea that video games can't naturally incorporate *everything* the PC does, did or wants into the structure of the game) which is reason why most people feel its unnecessary to the game. And I'd agree that it is unnecessary; but as an option it can be something players have to feel like their character is a fleshed out figure I have no problem with it.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Even if I agreed with your point (which I understand but still disagree with) there is still the remaining issue that it's the sort of thing which has never really been done well in the format of videogames and when people are clamoring for "romance" what is most likely happening is not a MotB reference but BioWare fans who want to have videogame secks.

Edited September 21, 2012 by TwinkieGorilla

[Amentep]

I dunno, I understand your reluctance to have them if you haven't liked them. And I'll agree that limitations in video games make them difficult to work "logically" (Jaheria going after the PC within days or weeks of her husbands death for example). And yet I also thought some of the romances made sense, like Dawn Star in JE or Safiya from MotB, and worked well within the game context.

[Merin]

The underlying mechanic that romances commonly use - the party interaction dynamic - is a very important element of party based RPGs.

 

And of course, sticking things in the holes of your party members is even more important, right?

 

Okay, this is getting ridiculous.

 

Stop the ad hominems. He never said anything about sex.

 

If he WAS asking for realistic, mature sex in the game - that still wouldn't be wrong, and you still should be mocking him for it - but he WASN'T.

 

You are setting up a straw man (saying he's asking for sex with the companions) and attacking his character.

 

Knock it off. Already reported.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Stop the ad hominems.

 

I don't think you know what an ad hominem is.

 

Already reported.

 

Thanks. I'm sure the mods appreciate the tattling too.

[Merin]

I know my logical fallacies quite well.

 

The poster was asking for in game romance. You responded by mocking them for "sticking things in the holes of your party members."

 

Straw man - you set up an argument that is easier to knock down, even though it wasn't what your opponent has said

ad hominem - your attempts to win said argument were made by insulting your opponent instead of focusing on facts - you are in effect calling your opponent sex-crazed or perverted.

 

You've been doing the ad hominems repeatedly. This could also be considered poisoning the well - you are trying to dismiss your opponents by making them seem incredulous or undesirable to support.

 

---

 

Using logical fallacies proves the weakness of your argument.

 

Your discomfort with romance in stories and games is your own issue. Stop assaulting others for enjoying it.

[Rosbjerg]

Let's stick to the topic instead please.

[lord of flies]

if the one romance is for male PC's only, female players who care about this will rage (and vice versa if the romance is for female PC's only)

Oh yeah, because I have to play as a man if I'm a dude. Please. If I wanted to play as a man, I would go outside.

The poll wasn't for "Should there be romances or not?" The poll was asking "Those in favor of romances: under what conditions, if any, would you be willing to lose them as a feature?"

It reads like a push poll, and as an expert in push polls, I know what they look like. "Would you vote for Candidate Z if you learned he was embezzling from the government?" "Would you want romance removed if its inclusion meant the removal of all weapons from the game?"

I hate romances in games. Its almost never done well. See: any Bioware game ever

Bioware writes the characters from the perspective of "person I want to ****" which is a huge part of what makes them so goddamn embarassing (except for Garrus, he's so dreamy ).

What they should not do is throw some half baked minigame consisting of a few lines of dialog seemingly lifted from a hentai adventure just to meet the expectations of those who want project eternity to be another Bioware game.

Hentai adventure games have way better relationships than ****ing Bioware crap.

I'm fine with romances as long as they don't stuff homosexuality down our throats like in Mass Effect or Skryim

I disagree. I love having homosexuality stuffed down my throat.

Well, this is one of the things which puzzles me. I mean...are you saying people really want Shepard to get busy with a blue alien? Because that doesn't make any sense. At all. It does nothing to propel the story or game.

Neither does doing a sidequest, or reading a lore book. Let's cut all sidequests and lore books out of the game.

[Aotrs Commander]

TwinkieGorilla, I think you're too readily equating romances entirely to sex; especially given that the latter was most availble, in all it's completely moribund skip-to-loading-screen glory in Toment (where, had you a mind, you could have had heady-school-boy-giggling pretend sex with large numbers of the readily available Hive prostitutes...) If you want to make the comment that there should be no sex of any kind in the game (because you personally don't see the point), then I would largely agree with you.

 

But the whole fade-to-black is likely as explicit as you're going to get in an isometric sprite game; it's not like we'd be getting the often-slightly-awkward sex scenes like in DA:O or ME; so any titilation factor is, like Torment or BG2, entirely present (or not) in the imagination of the player (and if they are so inclined, there is nothing stopping them fantasing about that regardless of whether the game content allows it or not. And what people do or do not find titilating is entirely their own business (provided it's legal), and the concern of neither you nor me, nor our place to judge.)

 

As we've said, most of us who like to a romance are interested in it for the character interaction side of it (and indeed romance is but only one route - possibly not even the best one - to do that.)

 

So, is it the (implied, in this case) sex you are leery of, or the character interaction? Or merely the fact that in most cases, it's not handled especially well? Would you be okay with, instead of any romances, if the game let you form close friendships/comraderie with your companions, a few moments of bonding between characters?

Edited September 21, 2012 by Aotrs Commander

[Reddie]

Bioware poisoned the well with its sub-hentai-VN offerings and now you get knee jerk reactions. Big surprise.

 

Surprised I am not, but extrapolating BioWare's romances on every romance plot in every possible video game is still stupid. And stupidity has to be fought with, or it will spread futher

[Monte Carlo]

The forum has spoken. Over 70% of us are happy to sacrifice romances. In my case I'd like to sacrifice them on a stone altar in the underground temple of a multi-tentacled god of evil madness, with an elaborately ornate but cruelly-spiked mace.

[metiman]

I am curious what it is about videogame romance and sex that is so appealing to some of you. I just don't get it. If you want that sort of thing can you not just play some MMOG and chat up every opposite sex character you see? If you do that you might even get some romance/sex in the real world. Some of you are saying that the virtual sex aspect of it isn't important. If we are just talking about romance without sex what does that mean specifically? Are we just talking about some of the dialogue between opposite sexes being mildly flirtatious? I don't have a major problem with that as long as it isn't shoehorned on just for the sake of the EABioware2 fans who are fixated on this stuff.

 

Also, the request for 'romance' is kind of vague. Do you have any examples of games in which you believe the romances were done properly? The only cRPG I've ever played that had any significant romances was BG2. Would that be an example of romances done right?

[metiman]

Bioware poisoned the well with its sub-hentai-VN offerings and now you get knee jerk reactions. Big surprise.

 

Surprised I am not, but extrapolating BioWare's romances on every romance plot in every possible video game is still stupid. And stupidity has to be fought with, or it will spread futher

 

Then go ahead and give specific examples of what you consider a game with good romances, if it exists.

Edited September 21, 2012 by metiman

[Elerond]

Video game romances have same appeal than romance has in books and movies, when it is writen well it can cause great narrative immersion.

[^Rayne^]

The forum has spoken. Over 70% of us are happy to sacrifice romances. In my case I'd like to sacrifice them on a stone altar in the underground temple of a multi-tentacled god of evil madness, with an elaborately ornate but cruelly-spiked mace.

 

Actually with only 187 responses to a biased poll doesn't prove anything. The fair poll with over 530 respondents had almost a 3:1 showing in favor of the romance option. A lot of people recognize a biased push poll when they see one and haven't bothered to add their input. A set of false choices makes for a very biased outcome.

[Monte Carlo]

^ Yes, but what does that have to do with it?

[Reddie]

Then go ahead and give specific examples of what you consider a game with good romances, if it exists.

 

It does not, but is that an argument that there should be no attempt at one?

 

BG2 and PS:T are some known examples of romance plots that go different than what BioWare recently fed it's fanbase with, but granted, these do fail, albeit on other aspects than over-sexualisation and fanservice.

[metiman]

So then what you are asking for is something that has never (properly) been done before in the history of computer games. Just the sort of thing to try to add to a low budget game with an 18 month long development cycle.

[Cycloneman]

I am curious what it is about videogame romance and sex that is so appealing to some of you. I just don't get it. If you want that sort of thing can you not just play some MMOG and chat up every opposite sex character you see? If you do that you might even get some romance/sex in the real world. Some of you are saying that the virtual sex aspect of it isn't important.

I am curious about what it is about videogame shooting that is so appealing to some of you. If you want to kill people with a gun, you can just go do it in real life? It's called the US Army, numbnuts. OORAH.

 

If we are just talking about romance without sex what does that mean specifically? Are we just talking about some of the dialogue between opposite sexes being mildly flirtatious? I don't have a major problem with that as long as it isn't shoehorned on just for the sake of the EABioware2 fans who are fixated on this stuff.

Yes, the only difference between romance and flirtation is the presence/absence of sex. For ****'s sake. The difference between romance with sex and romance without sex is this: in the latter there is no sex. YOU'RE WELCOME.

Also, the request for 'romance' is kind of vague. Do you have any examples of games in which you believe the romances were done properly? The only cRPG I've ever played that had any significant romances was BG2. Would that be an example of romances done right?

Garrus from ME2 is a good romance. Simple, to the point, doesn't do much more than transfer a relationship from platonic to romantic/sexual in a reasonable way rather than some overwrought melodrama (the romantic part basically goes, "hey Garrus, I like you, wanna have sex?" "well... *scratches head* **** it, sure").

Edited September 21, 2012 by Cycloneman

[Reddie]

So then what you are asking for is something that has never (properly) been done before in the history of computer games. Just the sort of thing to try to add to a low budget game with an 18 month long development cycle.

 

Precisely because it's a crowdfunded project, I feel that it's completely in order to expect it to be fresh and innovative. Just the sort of things Obsidian couldn't do with any big publisher. The world is new, the character stats system is new, yet I don't see you complaining that this unnecessarily drains resources and how better would be had Obsidian used something that already exists.

[Amentep]

I am curious what it is about videogame romance and sex that is so appealing to some of you. I just don't get it. If you want that sort of thing can you not just play some MMOG and chat up every opposite sex character you see? If you do that you might even get some romance/sex in the real world. Some of you are saying that the virtual sex aspect of it isn't important. If we are just talking about romance without sex what does that mean specifically? Are we just talking about some of the dialogue between opposite sexes being mildly flirtatious? I don't have a major problem with that as long as it isn't shoehorned on just for the sake of the EABioware2 fans who are fixated on this stuff.

 

Also, the request for 'romance' is kind of vague. Do you have any examples of games in which you believe the romances were done properly? The only cRPG I've ever played that had any significant romances was BG2. Would that be an example of romances done right?

 

At the risk of repeating myself...

 

For my part - and again I'm not going to be torn up if romances aren't in the game - I like party interactions. Party interactions can create interesting relationships between the NPCs and PC or other NPCs (interparty banter or squables or quests). It is a way so your Orc Fighter isn't just a meat shield and your wizard isn't a fireball battery. They're characters with some personality traits. In specific situations I see no problem with those relationships being romantic in nature.

 

This would have to fit the scope and focus of the game and I'd rather have many other things in the game...but if it is part of the character design for NPCs and it fits the game...why not have it as one more avenue with which to define your character as well as the NPCs?

 

Like most side-quests, romances aren’t going to propel the story forward (in Mass Effect getting Nirali Bhatia's body back to Suresh (or choosing to ignore him or side with the agent) doesn't affect the story, but offers a way to define the PC and the world they live in.

 

Romances should be similar; they define the PC or NPC (and possibly their culture(s)) in different ways and gives the player options for what kind of character they want to be. Using Jade Empire as an example, I kind of felt that it was natural for the male PC to consider a romantic relationship with Dawn Star - who very easily could have been a romantic figure in his life for years since they've grown up together. Or not as well; the PC could very well see Dawn Star as a childhood friend and never think of her that way. But again the player gets an opportunity to stake out that part of the background of their character.

 

The problem with most romances is "they just seem to happen" (which, iirc, is actually female Shepard's response in the Liara romance in Mass Effect at one point). There are some other problems as well (the NPCs never seem to say “no” unless the player makes choices to kill the romance). I don’t think those couldn’t be surmounted if thought out well. In that sense romances should be able to be developed so they make sense with the character. I think romances could never get to the point of sex and be perfectly appropriate.

 

I also think characters should be able to flirt with characters who shoot them down - ultimately its a part of NPCs building to create this kind of choice for what the NPC would want. I think a big problem with romances is that they're PC-centric to the point of over-riding character logic (and I get that often this is why many players consider them to be constantly poorly implemented). The PC is a black hole from which no romanceable character can escape if they get too close.

 

Of course, if the player wanted to they could incorporate this into the background of the character whether the game supported it or not (using the idea that video games can't naturally incorporate *everything* the PC does, did or wants into the structure of the game) which is reason why most people feel its unnecessary to the game. And I'd agree that it is unnecessary; but as an option it can be something players have to feel like their character is a fleshed out figure I have no problem with it.

[l3loodangel]

The forum has spoken. Over 70% of us are happy to sacrifice romances. In my case I'd like to sacrifice them on a stone altar in the underground temple of a multi-tentacled god of evil madness, with an elaborately ornate but cruelly-spiked mace.

 

Actually with only 187 responses to a biased poll doesn't prove anything. The fair poll with over 530 respondents had almost a 3:1 showing in favor of the romance option. A lot of people recognize a biased push poll when they see one and haven't bothered to add their input. A set of false choices makes for a very biased outcome.

 

You are delusional if you believe, that romances won't cut some content out. It is the fair poll actually. For a LIMITED budget, by adding features you have to remove or downsize other features.

 

People voted YES in previous polls, because they don't have the slightest idea that it will make other parts of the game weaker.

Edited September 21, 2012 by l3loodangel

[Sarathen]

(except for Garrus, he's so dreamy ).

 

Guilty confession: I could not resist 'romancing' Garrus in ME. I just couldn't. I'm weak for his awesome-ness.

 

As far as other romances in games, I don't think it needs to be or should be primarily oriented around nailing your preferred companion or NPC. But non-platonic relationships in a story are realistic. Heck, there are plenty of depictions of long term, short term, purely physically, primarily emotional (et cetera, et cetera, et cetera) relationships in literature that wouldn't be remotely classified as 'romance'. It's just part of life.

 

So it makes sense to include elements of that in a game. Don't make it a dating sim, but have interactions like Annah's suppressed attraction to TNO, Fall-from-Grace's evolving affections that can never be realized. Let your companions develop their own relationships with each other, give them the ability to deny your hero's advances (just not that in to you) and to outright reject you later (yeah, about burning down that orphanage...).

 

When it comes down to it, all this would add complexity to the storytelling/game mechanics/dialog trees. Especially when you add in player-created characters, that would need different responses/dialogue. So if the resources to do it right just aren't there, don't try to halfass it, please. Just don't swing the other way and make affection/attraction conspicuously absent if you DO have the right people and ability to do it well.

[metiman]

I am curious what it is about videogame romance and sex that is so appealing to some of you. I just don't get it. If you want that sort of thing can you not just play some MMOG and chat up every opposite sex character you see? If you do that you might even get some romance/sex in the real world. Some of you are saying that the virtual sex aspect of it isn't important.

I am curious about what it is about videogame shooting that is so appealing to some of you. If you want to kill people with a gun, you can just go do it in real life? It's called the US Army, numbnuts. OORAH.

 

If we are just talking about romance without sex what does that mean specifically? Are we just talking about some of the dialogue between opposite sexes being mildly flirtatious? I don't have a major problem with that as long as it isn't shoehorned on just for the sake of the EABioware2 fans who are fixated on this stuff.

Yes, the only difference between romance and flirtation is the presence/absence of sex. For ****'s sake. The difference between romance with sex and romance without sex is this: in the latter there is no sex. YOU'RE WELCOME.

Also, the request for 'romance' is kind of vague. Do you have any examples of games in which you believe the romances were done properly? The only cRPG I've ever played that had any significant romances was BG2. Would that be an example of romances done right?

Garrus from ME2 is a good romance. Simple, to the point, doesn't do much more than transfer a relationship from platonic to romantic/sexual in a reasonable way rather than some overwrought melodrama (the romantic part basically goes, "hey Garrus, I like you, wanna have sex?" "well... *scratches head* **** it, sure").

 

Unlike romances fighting/killing can be properly implemented in a game. Without some kind of advanced technology that we don't yet have sex cannot be. And romance cannot really be done properly either. Romance is something that people actually like to do in the real world. Most people have no interest in going out into the real world and actually killing people. Joining the army doesn't necessarily lead to actually killing anyone. I can list plenty examples of fun games where the mechanic is solely about killing people. Can you list a single example of a fun game that is solely about romancing and having sex with game characters?

 

So sex is an essential part of what you are asking for when you ask for romances. The point about sticking imaginary appendages into imaginary holes is valid then. Although that could be seen as sexist. Since romances are probably way more popular among female gamers it is probably more about getting holes filled by various imaginary implements. I don't have a problem with porn. I just don't want it in a computer game. If the game did have porn I'd prefer it to be at least something you can't do in real life. Like maybe tasteful gang rape.

 

So your example of a properly implemented romance is one from ME2. Exactly what I was expecting. So I take it that you are a fan of post Dragon Age Bioware then. My perhaps unfair generalization is that most of the people clamoring for romance are Biowarians who want to make Project Eternity into yet another Dragon Age or Mass Effect spiritual successor. All I can say is I hope that doesn't happen.

Edited September 21, 2012 by metiman

[Auxilius]

Well, even if the results are overwhelming, 1/3 of the voting pool still want romances no matter what.

Welp, looks like we're going to get them. I'm not against it as long as no resources are sacrified for them.

I still voted Yes/Yes/No like a true representative of the Master Race .