BioWare Founders Retiring!

[Tale]

The endings of each Assassin's creed game are so much dumber than ME3, each one progressively worse, but you don't ever hear anything about that.

 

I think AC3 will likely end with the Founding Fathers going on a drinking binge during the Declaration of Independence ike in that Simpsons' stonecutter episode.

 

 

 

The funny thing is, the alien nonsense in AC would've fitted ME3 ending much better.

I think there's a consensus that Desmond never left the facility, has been permanently attached to the animus and his story is just a fabricated lie. And if that's not canon it should be.

 

Seriously how does the guy with the coolest ancestors end up being that.

A nomadic bartender? Honestly, that sounds like a step up!

[meomao]

Note that for all of DA2's shortcomings (and there are plenty), stating things like "unethical" is pretty much as up there with "lazy" in terms of the things that make me grate my teeth (which is doubly more painful as I have braces now!). It's easy to toss out the mud from behind the the internet though, I suppose.

 

And it's as easy to play the victim without reveling your identity when it was me who has spent his hard earned money on that overglorified DLC you pumped like it was the new Ultima IV. For all I know you could be one of those guys paid by EA for viral marketing . And that's the unethical part of the equation. I could allways trust Bioware in the past. Some games were better. Some games were worst. But you allways delivered a polished product and stick to your principles as best as you could, trying to build a friendly relationship with the fanbase based on trust and mutual respect. Yes, it was about the money but even about the enjoyement of your game and the improvement of the media.

 

As soon as EA has come in to the picture everything has changed for the worst and Bioware has began to treat his customers like cash bags. Say what you want: I work in customer service in a very competitive market segment and I know the nature of lies, excuses and compromises. I'm not a teen who like to toss mud on the web. I allways respected and defended your work on the past. But the way you are treating your fans and customers now is unethical. EA is just about short term monetization. They don't care about anything else. Bioware devs are clearly victim of that mentality. DA2 and ME3 with his rushed final hours are the symbol of that process. The relation is not working that well both on a creative and business terms... otherwise the docs would probably be still there.

 

I really wish you can change my mind with DA3: but I'm not holding my breath. For sure I won't pre-order the game and I've preordered each Bioware game since Baldur's Gate 2.

Edited September 25, 2012 by meomao

[alanschu]

And it's as easy to play the victim without reveling your identity when it was me who has spent his hard earned money on that overglorified DLC you pumped like it was the new Ultima IV. For all I know you could be one of those guys paid by EA for viral marketing

 

My name is Allan Schumacher. Sylvius was able to ID me! (the hint is in the username!)

 

 

Though I do know that some of the skeptics do think I work in marketing. I remember reading a post that stated that my posts on the BSN "clearly" have had editing passes done on them before going live. I took it as a compliment

Edited September 25, 2012 by alanschu

[meomao]

And it's as easy to play the victim without reveling your identity when it was me who has spent his hard earned money on that overglorified DLC you pumped like it was the new Ultima IV. For all I know you could be one of those guys paid by EA for viral marketing

 

My name is Allan Schumacher. Sylvius was able to ID me! (the hint is in the username!)

 

 

Though I do know that some of the skeptics do think I work in marketing. I remember reading a post that stated that my posts on the BSN "clearly" have had editing passes done on them before going live. I took it as a compliment

 

I assumed it was you or Epler: I should have thought about the username. I like your posts on the BSN. The viral marketing part was just a provocation. My point is simple: you should not assume that I'm just a random person who likes to toss mudd about "my" Bioware. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm not using the right world but I'm honest. For me is quite painfull to see the direction you are going as a company since you have been bought by EA.

[Gorth]

And it's as easy to play the victim without reveling your identity when it was me who has spent his hard earned money on that overglorified DLC you pumped like it was the new Ultima IV. For all I know you could be one of those guys paid by EA for viral marketing

 

My name is Allan Schumacher. Sylvius was able to ID me! (the hint is in the username!)

 

 

Though I do know that some of the skeptics do think I work in marketing. I remember reading a post that stated that my posts on the BSN "clearly" have had editing passes done on them before going live. I took it as a compliment

 

I assumed it was you or Epler: I should have thought about the username. I like your posts on the BSN. The viral marketing part was just a provocation. My point is simple: you should not assume that I'm just a random person who likes to toss mudd about "my" Bioware. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm not using the right world but I'm honest. For me is quite painfull to see the direction you are going as a company since you have been bought by EA.

Then I would recommend you head to BSN and express it, because frankly it gets a bit repetitive here...

[Tale]

The thing that worries me about the Doctors leaving is that Muzyka would talk about "possibility space." I love it, it's what an RPG should aspire to. And it's also my only solid complaint about the last two titles. Yeah, there's some pretty weak points in the writing beyond player choice. But choice is the big one. I could gleefully ignore the rest if choice was satisfactory.

 

Without him, I hope someone's still pushing for it.

 

Allan, will you take up the torch?

[alanschu]

This is naturally a power vacuum that will see me shoot up the ranks. I suspect JR will be looking over his shoulder soon enough! Although more seriously I am curious if there will be (or how much) repercussions this will have through the company.

 

 

My point is simple: you should not assume that I'm just a random person who likes to toss mudd about "my" Bioware.

 

Meh. You stated that my colleagues (and in many cases friends) are not ethical people. As for assumption that you're a random person... well, you're simply meomao on Obsidian's forums. I can't see how it could get any more random than that.

 

Or are you saying that you are/were a BioWare employee? I notice you tossed "my" in quotation marks.

[Zoraptor]

For me is quite painfull to see the direction you are going as a company since you have been bought by EA.

I really don't think EA has that much to do with it. You can maybe blame them for DA2's truncated dev time but that's about it- Bioware has done plenty of 'questionable' and equivalent stuff beforehand, when it was run outright by the Good Doctors. The NWN OC is quite possibly the worst, most cliche and unoriginal story that I've ever experienced 3/4 of -and makes DA2/ ME3 etc look like comparative masterpieces- yet it still had grandiose claims of quality on the box, they claimed you could load your BG2 character into it at one point, it was unstable at release and had dlc before it was called dlc; Jade Empire (and KOTOR, really) ushered in consoles as the primary focus with JE streamlining out almost all the (already limited) charm KOTOR's combat had, and Mass Effect was an RPG lite with sub Gears of War popamole 3rd person gunplay and DA2 style repeating dungeons- all before EA happened on the scene.

 

I actually had a far lower opinion of Bioware over the NWN-KOTOR-JE period than now. I thought DAO was pretty good if a bit bland, ME2 OK and ME3 wildly uneven but decent enough overall (cut that clown *** **** and the end game slogathon and it'd approach good; albeit I never expected a great deal from the ending so was not overly disappointed) while of the earlier three the only one I found above tolerable was KOTOR. Then again I don't hate EA on principle, don't care much about Origin as long as there isn't 3rd party Originworks and- generally- see little point in slagging games or companies off as you just end up sounding like a hater who's gonna hate. There's plenty of legitimate criticisms to be made but the EA-hate/ Bioware have sold out type thing is a bit lazy and does get a bit boring.

[Malcador]

Ah, such drama. Then again I'm jaded about my company (refuse to say that "we" nonsense)

[Grimlorn]

I wonder how the meeting that decided to make a MMO with a focus on single player story/content went. It just boggles my mind that someone could think that was a good idea.

 

I think it goes without saying, but if people want to play a single player RPG with focus on story and characters, they'll buy a single player RPG and those are much cheaper to develop. Even if you create a MMO that with that focus, it doesn't have the longevity that you need for the subscription based model. Because once people have seen the story of the characters they want to play through, there's no incentive to continue to play after that.

 

Endgame content has to be there and has to be amazing to keep people coming back. That's what always surprises me about MMO releases, they always have problems with their endgames when that should be the focus. Most MMO players are just questing through the game to get to max lvl. Very few actually read the descriptions and follow the story through leveling to Max lvl.

 

WoW was a one hit wonder and that's the reason why all these clones of it always fail. Even if they do some things better than WoW they'll still fail because no one will ever want to play a clone of WoW. If Blizzard's new MMO is a WoW clones it will fail. It will probably fail anyways. Sell a lot at release but subscribers will ultimately dwindle after 3-6 months just like every other MMO that's been released in the past 5 years.

 

If someone wants to create a great MMO that has millions of subscribers, they are going to have to create something new and innovate the genre. Otherwise you're just going to keep seeing MMO after MMO failing over and over. That's what investors/publishers don't get. They see the WoW model and think they need to create that to make money. They don't realize it was just a one hit wonder because they don't get it.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Grimlorn

[Hurlshort]

You don't actually see MMO after MMO failing though. It is a high risk genre for sure, but there are quite a few successful MMO's running right now, and many that have been running for years with no problems.

 

So doing an MMO wasn't really a bad idea, it was pumping soooooo much money into it that it had to be a huge hit to justify itself.

 

Meomao, you understand that you represent a very small minority of the actual customer base, right? Like a super small one. We all do, all of us who spend time posting on forums are just a vocal minority, we don't actually represent the larger target demographic that Bioware is currently after. I figured that out after the original Dragon Age added that ridiculous blood splatter effect. And you know what? When I sat in line for ME3 I listened to a bunch of folks talk about how cool it was to button mash their way through Dragon Age 2, and they PREFERRED it to the original. That terrified me, but it also made sense.

 

Heck, just look at Project Eternity. It has been super successful, but it still only has like 50k backers. Bioware is selling $2 million plus copies of their games. We won't really know until DA3 comes out and we see how it sells, but I just don't think you are going to find the majority of those customers sharing your complaints.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Hurlshot

[alanschu]

I actually think WoW has done a decent enough job of providing a narrative for the players as well.

 

Many of the things I saw in Cataclysm made me go "uh oh" because they were things I thought were pretty awesome and novel in TOR that suddenly weren't going to be awesome and novel because Cataclysm is already doing it!

[Hurlshort]

Even Guild Wars 2 has a pretty strong narrative to it, and that is a very free form MMO.

[Gorth]

Just out of curiosity, did SWTOR go F2P or is it intended to? I can't deny a certain curiosity, wanting to take a peek at the game.

[Humanoid]

Heard November, but that was a while ago.

 

 

 

My take on what SWTOR did well was to provide a sense of character ownership in a way WoW never did for me. Sure it was an illusion, but it was the first MMO, perhaps since UO, in which I felt I was playing *my* character and not the writers'.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Humanoid

[Hurlshort]

Just out of curiosity, did SWTOR go F2P or is it intended to? I can't deny a certain curiosity, wanting to take a peek at the game.

 

No f2p until the fall, but I believe you can start a trial account and play up to level 15. Given the unique storylines, that can actually give you a fair amount of gameplay if you level a few characters to that point.

 

You might be surprised at how much you like it, quite a few people I know where reticent, but ended up having a blast.

[Gorth]

Thanks guys. I'm probably going to give it a try. I might not become a regular player, but I would like to know what people are talking about

[Grimlorn]

You don't actually see MMO after MMO failing though. It is a high risk genre for sure, but there are quite a few successful MMO's running right now, and many that have been running for years with no problems.

 

So doing an MMO wasn't really a bad idea, it was pumping soooooo much money into it that it had to be a huge hit to justify itself.

I didn't say doing a MMO was a bad idea. I just said that it was a bad idea to put so much emphasis on single player story and also it's bad to clone WoW. When MMOs go from subscription to F2P that's considered somewhat of a failure, because they couldn't hold on to enough subscribers to pay the bills.

 

I'm assuming this is one of the reason Greg and Ray quit or were fired because TOR wasn't successful. I don't know if it's true but it was leaked TOR cost $300 million to make. I don't think there is any way they made that back if it's true.

 

I'm also curious about how successful DA2 and ME3 were. A lot of bad PR came with those games even if they were financially successful. EA was also voted worst company in America and I'm sure the bad PR from those games had something to do with it. EA also paid about $800 million for Bioware Pandemic 5 years ago. I'm kind of doubting Bioware has made that back for them or are even close to.

[BruceVC]

You don't actually see MMO after MMO failing though. It is a high risk genre for sure, but there are quite a few successful MMO's running right now, and many that have been running for years with no problems.

 

So doing an MMO wasn't really a bad idea, it was pumping soooooo much money into it that it had to be a huge hit to justify itself.

I didn't say doing a MMO was a bad idea. I just said that it was a bad idea to put so much emphasis on single player story and also it's bad to clone WoW. When MMOs go from subscription to F2P that's considered somewhat of a failure, because they couldn't hold on to enough subscribers to pay the bills.

 

I'm assuming this is one of the reason Greg and Ray quit or were fired because TOR wasn't successful. I don't know if it's true but it was leaked TOR cost $300 million to make. I don't think there is any way they made that back if it's true.

 

I'm also curious about how successful DA2 and ME3 were. A lot of bad PR came with those games even if they were financially successful. EA was also voted worst company in America and I'm sure the bad PR from those games had something to do with it. EA also paid about $800 million for Bioware Pandemic 5 years ago. I'm kind of doubting Bioware has made that back for them or are even close to.

 

Yes TOR did need $300 million to make and it wasn't the huge success that EA expected, but the ME and DA series were both highly successful and profitable. I agree that there was a fan backlash from some but there are still thousands of very loyal Bioware followers. I don't think either Greg or Ray left because they didn't deliver products that weren't profitable. Reading between the lines and what they said I believe its because they did feel there creative input wasn't what it use to be and to be honest they are both now very wealthy. Why force yourself to work where you are questioning whether you can contribute as constructively as before if you really don't need to?

 

Finally that poll that rated EA as the worst company in the USA is clearly inaccurate and doesn't represent the reality. You can't tell me that certain big banks or cigarette companies are better companies than EA. Gaming fans were responsible for that result as they had an axe to grind against EA and we all know how vociferous gaming fans can be

Edited September 26, 2012 by BruceVC

[GhostofAnakin]

If BioWare is serious about their multiplayer component of Mass Effect, they might want to introduce more game modes. IMO, the current MP is incredibly dull because there's basically one mode, and it's the exact same 10 waves (differing only in enemy type) you have to get through until extraction.

 

Co-op missions, team death match, variations of capture the flag or domination. Whatever. They need to do something other than introduce new maps and weapon packs in order to keep MP fresh and people interested.

[Humanoid]

Finally that poll that rated EA as the worst company in the USA is clearly inaccurate and doesn't represent the reality. You can't tell me that certain big banks or cigarette companies are better companies than EA. Gaming fans were responsible for that result as they had an axe to grind against EA and we all know how vociferous gaming fans can be

 

Not to dispute the point, but it's an annual poll they do where previous winners are automatically excluded, so most of the usual suspects were ineligible for this year's edition.

[BruceVC]

Finally that poll that rated EA as the worst company in the USA is clearly inaccurate and doesn't represent the reality. You can't tell me that certain big banks or cigarette companies are better companies than EA. Gaming fans were responsible for that result as they had an axe to grind against EA and we all know how vociferous gaming fans can be

 

Not to dispute the point, but it's an annual poll they do where previous winners are automatically excluded, so most of the usual suspects were ineligible for this year's edition.

 

Okay interesting I didn't realize that. But for the record who were the previous winners (or losers in this case )

[Grimlorn]

You don't actually see MMO after MMO failing though. It is a high risk genre for sure, but there are quite a few successful MMO's running right now, and many that have been running for years with no problems.

 

So doing an MMO wasn't really a bad idea, it was pumping soooooo much money into it that it had to be a huge hit to justify itself.

I didn't say doing a MMO was a bad idea. I just said that it was a bad idea to put so much emphasis on single player story and also it's bad to clone WoW. When MMOs go from subscription to F2P that's considered somewhat of a failure, because they couldn't hold on to enough subscribers to pay the bills.

 

I'm assuming this is one of the reason Greg and Ray quit or were fired because TOR wasn't successful. I don't know if it's true but it was leaked TOR cost $300 million to make. I don't think there is any way they made that back if it's true.

 

I'm also curious about how successful DA2 and ME3 were. A lot of bad PR came with those games even if they were financially successful. EA was also voted worst company in America and I'm sure the bad PR from those games had something to do with it. EA also paid about $800 million for Bioware Pandemic 5 years ago. I'm kind of doubting Bioware has made that back for them or are even close to.

 

Yes TOR did need $300 million to make and it wasn't the huge success that EA expected, but the ME and DA series were both highly successful and profitable. I agree that there was a fan backlash from some but there are still thousands of very loyal Bioware followers. I don't think either Greg or Ray left because they didn't deliver products that weren't profitable. Reading between the lines and what they said I believe its because they did feel there creative input wasn't what it use to be and to be honest they are both now very wealthy. Why force yourself to work where you are questioning whether you can contribute as constructively as before if you really don't need to?

Yeah I don't know. I do remember hearing a rumor recently that they weren't even showing up to meetings (I think EA meetings) this would have been 1-2 months ago. So I'm guessing that is true with them quitting now, but for what reason I don't know.

 

Finally that poll that rated EA as the worst company in the USA is clearly inaccurate and doesn't represent the reality. You can't tell me that certain big banks or cigarette companies are better companies than EA. Gaming fans were responsible for that result as they had an axe to grind against EA and we all know how vociferous gaming fans can be

That's the point. Maybe it's not grounded in reality, but that just makes the fact that it happened even worse. Because the fan backlash was so great, people went out of their way to vote for EA. This was right after the release of ME3. So it obviously had something to do with it.

[Humanoid]

Finally that poll that rated EA as the worst company in the USA is clearly inaccurate and doesn't represent the reality. You can't tell me that certain big banks or cigarette companies are better companies than EA. Gaming fans were responsible for that result as they had an axe to grind against EA and we all know how vociferous gaming fans can be

 

Not to dispute the point, but it's an annual poll they do where previous winners are automatically excluded, so most of the usual suspects were ineligible for this year's edition.

 

Okay interesting I didn't realize that. But for the record who were the previous winners (or losers in this case )

 

Not something I've followed (since I'm not American) but apparently from 2006-2011 respectively: Halliburton, the RIAA, Countrywide Financial, AIG, Comcast and BP.

[Nepenthe]

Then I would recommend you head to BSN and express it, because frankly it gets a bit repetitive here...

It gets even more repetitive there. To the point where I no longer visit the place.