How realistic is your cup of tea?

[Bos_hybrid]

Obviously what is best is what make sense in the setting.

 

The most important thing is that it's not included just because it can be. Here I trust in Obs that they know what they are doing,

Edited September 18, 2012 by Bos_hybrid

[fixedpoint]

Voted for the second option because I think it works better when horrific details are mostly left to your imagination. Explicitly showing such things often breaks suspension of disbelief, and you just stop sympathizing. This defense line is broken when unspeakable things happen in your own mental image of the game world. And what PC can witness while we are looking at the world through his eyes, pales in comparison to what happened in this room yesterday, what was going in this country for years, and in that plane of existence for millennia.

[Palmtuna]

We also have to take into consideration the graphics and animations of the game. Since it is most likely going to be 3d characters in a top down environment, some of the brutal events may not look as compelling as leaving it up to one's imagination. In which case I would probably change my mind and go for the second option. Not for the fact that its ESRB friendly but because the player's mental visual may be more compelling than what the limited graphics could provide.

[Troller]

ESRB friendly, seriously?

out of 20 games that get released 20 of them are ESRB friendly, let's go for something different here guys please...

[hackdirt]

I'm going with #2. The taboos are fine, to an extent, just as long as you aren't having them thrown in your face every moment. I'm thinking something in the vein of GRRM's writing, where the gruesome horrors are very real, but you're never actually presented with them firsthand. (ie Vargo Hoat's torture, Lollys' rape, etc) I would have probably stopped reading if those scenes were narrated explicitly. I often steer clear of presenting those subjects directly in my tabletop games, mainly because it doesn't really add to the experience other than make everyone feel bad, and games are supposed to enjoyable.

 

#1 just seems like the game would be too much like an exploitation film.

[limaxophobiacq]

Nr. 1 sounds more like a grimdark joke setting like 40k than anything realistic.

 

"Cannibalism in poor areas", historically cannibalism really only happens in extremely desperate situations with mass-starvation and even then is never really common even in those periods.

 

Edit: I mean I'm ok with child murder by some lone monster like Ned in BGII, or in war and by plundering bandits, and rape being disturbingly widespread in historical times is true (esp. if you count girls getting married of without their consent and the marriage being 'consumated'), but your first option basically sounds like a tagline for F.A.T.A.L..

Edited September 18, 2012 by limaxophobiacq

[Crosmando]

It really has to do with how Obsidian is going to handle magic in the fluff, or how they are going to limit it.

 

I mean, you can't really have a grim impoverished medieval hellhole if your local Cleric can just go and cast heal on all the diseased villagers. I know it's just a game, but plot holes are plot holes.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Crosmando

[NoxNoctum]

As long as it's not put in just for the sake of shock value.

 

Sometimes I feel like the sheer amount of rape and incest in Game of Thrones for example was just over the top. Every third character was a sexual deviant pretty much. No, that's not realistic.

[NoxNoctum]

Most of the time, I think explicitly showing brutality or its aftermath has much less impact than leaving it to the player's imagination. Setting the stage, then leaving it to the inner eye, so to speak.

 

Uncovering the horror through dialogue or innuendo, observing the effects and psychological scars - this is the kind of presentation I'd like to see. I don't want to see lots of it, but what there is should definitely be told without sugarcoating. I'd love to see something surreal. Btw., consuming small amounts of the deceased is a funeral rite that actually exists. As soon as you read up on the motivations behind it, it's actually not horrible at all.

 

+1 on that. Innuendo is much more powerful than being super explicit.

[Lucas]

Tamed or ERSB at most: a world is believable also when things are simply implied. Otherwise, *in a computer game* , it becomes a parody of itself and/or simply laughable, where things are artificially forced on you on a visual/narrative level, instead of making sense in the context of the world.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Lucas

[Aidoneus]

It's a fantasy world, why shoud it be realistic, or even socially realistic ?

Give me something other to explore, for once. Isn't the whole point of fantasy to show alterity ? Why does (cheap) fantasy always need to draw inspiration from trivial social matters ?

See Jeff Vandermeer (City of Saints and Madmen, Finch), see China Miéville (New weird stuff) and others. Original, innovative fantasy has been done recently...

[Crosmando]

Nr. 1 sounds more like a grimdark joke setting like 40k than anything realistic.

 

"Cannibalism in poor areas", historically cannibalism really only happens in extremely desperate situations with mass-starvation and even then is never really common even in those periods.

 

Edit: I mean I'm ok with child murder by some lone monster like Ned in BGII, or in war and by plundering bandits, and rape being disturbingly widespread in historical times is true (esp. if you count girls getting married of without their consent and the marriage being 'consumated'), but your first option basically sounds like a tagline for F.A.T.A.L..

True actually.

 

I think in the historical siege of Leningrad hundreds of thousands of people died of starvation during the siege, yet there were less than a dozen (reported) cases of cannabalism, in a city of over a million.

[licketysplit]

1 or 2. They shouldn't pull any punches. Too many developers are afraid to confront tough issues, or they can't treat them with a degree of sophistication. I like occasional 'holy sh*t did that really happen?' moments in games like Fallout or TW2. Plus, if it's a quasi-medieval setting, you have a host of nasty realities to deal with like slave labor, rape, class warfare, religious zealotry, etc

Edited September 18, 2012 by licketysplit

[exodiark]

Nr. 1 sounds more like a grimdark joke setting like 40k than anything realistic.

 

Sorry, I was emphasizing the bad a bit too much :D

What I mean is in number 1, just like real life, there will be lots of benevolence, heroism, and other "good" stuffs. But there's no censoring for the "bad" either, that means you will see child killings explicitly should you wander near Spartan-like war camps.

 

That doesn't mean you will see kids dying or people raped every 60 seconds, just when it's logical and artistically needed.

[Jarmo]

Oh, I first thought this would be about, like, if your 20th level warrior can be killed by a single dagger in the back, or an arrow to the throat. Instead of the typical RPG "I'll let you hit me with your axe a couple a times cause I'm such a good sport"! Or die of infection later.

 

Because that would require some serious new thinking, but could be totally awesome. More Runequest than D&D.

 

But as for this, anything that fits the bill and suits the game. No need going crazy dark just because.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Jarmo

[exodiark]

Most of the time, I think explicitly showing brutality or its aftermath has much less impact than leaving it to the player's imagination. Setting the stage, then leaving it to the inner eye, so to speak.

 

Uncovering the horror through dialogue or innuendo, observing the effects and psychological scars - this is the kind of presentation I'd like to see. I don't want to see lots of it, but what there is should definitely be told without sugarcoating. I'd love to see something surreal. Btw., consuming small amounts of the deceased is a funeral rite that actually exists. As soon as you read up on the motivations behind it, it's actually not horrible at all.

 

+1 on that. Innuendo is much more powerful than being super explicit.

 

I respectfully disagree, movies like SAW won't be as powerful with innuendos alone

Sometimes, you just have to show it to shock people, expose them with raw emotions.

 

Explicit exposition and innuendos are story-telling techniques. There are time and place for both of them, so they are both powerful IMO, it depends on how they use them.

[Mamoulian War]

Most of the time, I think explicitly showing brutality or its aftermath has much less impact than leaving it to the player's imagination. Setting the stage, then leaving it to the inner eye, so to speak.

 

Uncovering the horror through dialogue or innuendo, observing the effects and psychological scars - this is the kind of presentation I'd like to see. I don't want to see lots of it, but what there is should definitely be told without sugarcoating. I'd love to see something surreal. Btw., consuming small amounts of the deceased is a funeral rite that actually exists. As soon as you read up on the motivations behind it, it's actually not horrible at all.

 

This is exactly how I wanted to say it, but no need to repeat, when just the quote is enough...

 

Like in our world, lot of bad things happen, but you almost never see them, you just hear or read about it, be it from rumors, TV or newspaper. Let the player imagination do some work!

 

But do not forget to show us some happiness as well, drama and tragedy is much more deeper, after you allow us to enjoy some happy moments and then hit us hard with some trauma...

 

This is one video I agree most about how happiness and sadness should be presented in any game, and how they should not be...

 

 

http://www.escapistm...ough-The-Laughs

[limaxophobiacq]

Nr. 1 sounds more like a grimdark joke setting like 40k than anything realistic.

 

Sorry, I was emphasizing the bad a bit too much :D

What I mean is in number 1, just like real life, there will be lots of benevolence, heroism, and other "good" stuffs. But there's no censoring for the "bad" either, that means you will see child killings explicitly should you wander near Spartan-like war camps.

 

That doesn't mean you will see kids dying or people raped every 60 seconds, just when it's logical and artistically needed.

 

Oh ok, in that case I'm pretty much fine with it.

Edited September 18, 2012 by limaxophobiacq

[l3loodangel]

So, how socially realistic do you desire the Eternity world will be ?

Note that choosing "Hard realism" doesn't mean there will be gore, sex, etc every 60 seconds, but only when artistically needed.

 

EDIT: fixed the polls.

"Brutal Realism" is now "Hard Realism"

 

How about a mature setting without ****ing RAPE?

[hackdirt]

So, how socially realistic do you desire the Eternity world will be ?

Note that choosing "Hard realism" doesn't mean there will be gore, sex, etc every 60 seconds, but only when artistically needed.

 

EDIT: fixed the polls.

"Brutal Realism" is now "Hard Realism"

 

How about a mature setting without ****ing RAPE?

 

I agree, in a game that's not something most players would want to be presented with, I would think. Games are an escape medium, so I don't really want all the gritty realism and terrible things going on in the real world in a game I'm playing.

[l3loodangel]

So, how socially realistic do you desire the Eternity world will be ?

Note that choosing "Hard realism" doesn't mean there will be gore, sex, etc every 60 seconds, but only when artistically needed.

 

EDIT: fixed the polls.

"Brutal Realism" is now "Hard Realism"

 

How about a mature setting without ****ing RAPE?

 

I agree, in a game that's not something most players would want to be presented with, I would think. Games are an escape medium, so I don't really want all the gritty realism and terrible things going on in the real world in a game I'm playing.

 

I am also not sure that there is an "artistic need" for rape, especially with active player involvement.

[Tauron]

I dont want it to be gloomy world. But whn surrounded by pack of Goblins or Orcs or some other evilish traditional I would want my character die rather than being gang raped and than eaten. Also I would love to go to woods in hope of capturing a nymph and do the same to her exept eating her. That is why you need a garden infront of your house.

[Cariannis]

Doesn’t Australia have laws preventing “Hard realism” games from being sold? Goin’a have ta vote ESRB-friendly Realism for my Australian mates then. If that’s not the case I’ll gladly go with the “Hard realism” instead.

[Fooine]

I went with Tamed Reality, no matter how unpopular the option seems.

 

Realism != grimdark. Sure OP says that "choosing Hard realism doesn't mean there will be gore, sex, etc every 60 seconds, but only when artistically needed", but these are still the examples he used in the poll to describe what he intends by realism. And that, I think, shows how mature his idea of "hard realism" really is, that other comment aside.

 

I don't want my RPGs to shy away from themes such as the atrocities of war, fanaticism, culture clashes leading to racism and bigotism, the pains of loss, sacrifice and betrayal, and how one's choices have far-reaching consequences and all that good stuff. and all that good stuff. Let's not pretend rape and genocide doesn't happen, but anything "WTF-worthy" is, I believe, unnecessary and (counter-intuitively) completely immature. More often than not, it's handled in poor taste and feels completely forced, as if the authors are looking at the player saying "Oh yeah. We went there. Deal with it." while feeling so cool and edgy.

 

Adult themes aren't necessarily about darkness and horror. The world isn't actually like that. OP's idea of hard realism is basically porn. Pure unnecessary gratification.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Fooine

[-Zin-]

Wow.. This isn't a question of realism. I think the expression you're looking for is: "How edgy can this game be?"

That's how sleazy marketting-agents think. They try to find what kids like and then exploit it. And kids often like

things that should appeal to those older than them. That's what's usually 'cool', or 'edgy'.

 

So, edgy has very little to do with realism or maturity, especially maturity. Those are two powerful, seperate terms

that can enhance a story. Violence, rape, child killings, are mature themes, but those things alone don't make a good story.

Anyone using those tools in a story should have a good reason to do so, and not for a casual wow-factor.

 

Do I think these violent things can be included to the story? Yes, if it serves the story, genre, and themes, sure.

 

However, if people are generally bothered that these things aren't in a game, then I say that Obsidian shouldn't include them.

That would be entirely for the wrong reasons, and it's not really important in a good story.

 

Additional question: Do I think this is a stupid poll for even having to ask this question? Yes. I feel embarrassed. Almost to the

point where I don't want any violence in this game until some of you grow up. Real people have been raped. They play games

to chill out, and to relax after a hard day at work. The word 'rape' alone is a powerful phrase to make many victims instantly

and uncontrollably feel extremely bad. I don't know any victims personally, but I've read some papers here, some articles written by victims there,

and there is no reason that this fun, fantasy strategy game needs the things mentioned in the poll here, especially the way they are formulated here..

If you are one who REALLY want to see stuff like this, I don't think Obsidian should include it, because some of you have some growing up to do.

 

"Well, you strategically kill people in this game. That's wrong too!"

 

Yes, but most of the time, games framed those kills in a way that is justified and be pondered if they truly were the most ethical option at the time. If they're not, well, those who are killed in real life aren't here anymore to complain that they find it offensive.

 

Raping people however is always wrong. And people who have been raped are still here, and they aren't threatening us not to talk about it, but that's exactly why I think we can tone it down by just not saying stuff like: "I want to see rape."

 

I'm not coming back to look at this thread. Take it for what it is. Feel free to redicule or argue against this, but this is one poll I'm not voting on.