Do you want firearms in Project Eternity?

[CommissarMega]

Absolutely no.

 

The age old saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight" is true for a reason, once you have the firepower to stop a person from distance it kinda makes melee weapons redundant.

 

Actually, research done (and observations from) early battlefields indicate that if a gun-armed soldier sees some maniac screaming towards him waving a sharp bit of metal, the soldier's first instinct would be to hunker down and ready his bayonet, even if his gun was loaded. Or he'd simply fire off his gun in the enemy's general direction, miss, and then prepare his bayonet. People just don't react well psychologically to someone running at you with a gun.

 

If I may propose an anecdote, there have been records of American Civil War battles where soldiers would stant at point blank ranges, fire off thousands of shots, and when the smoke cleared, nobody was dead. And we're talking about guns hundreds of years less advanced than the rifles of the late 19th century. True, in another game by another publisher guns would behave they way you'd expect them to, but I have faith Obsidian would represent ancient firearms properly. Again, we're not talking about US Rangers wielding M-16s, but farmhands and young men who'd probably never seen a gun in their lives, and are probably in more danger from the weapon than anyone they're firing at.

[Aedelric]

I prefer not to have guns in my fantasy games, but I would rather Obsidian decide if they should be in or not rather than submitting to any kind of fan pressure. After all, they are the ones that are making the world, so they know if it is suitable or not.

[Canova]

Absolutely no.

 

The age old saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight" is true for a reason, once you have the firepower to stop a person from distance it kinda makes melee weapons redundant.

they could make it other way around. firearms could be used only by one remote nation or kingdom and they could be presented as like really slow and heavy wepons that are useless against skilled melee fighters and magic users. remember that british sounding foreign noble from jade empire? his firearm dealt solid dmg but it was super slow, you could mess with him with your magic and martial arts. firearms are actualy ridiculed in that world, they are basicaly useless. obsidian could do similar thing here.

making them magic based, powered bu some charged magic crystal or spell instead of gunpowder or something similar would also be good idea since such firearms would be more appropriate for fantasy setting

yeah, i think that might actually work

Edited September 19, 2012 by Canova

[Wintersong]

The age old saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight" is true for a reason, once you have the firepower to stop a person from distance it kinda makes melee weapons redundant.

Apparently, no fantasy setting with their powerful magics (that include powerful ranged attacks) had made swords obsolete. Think of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" but Indiana casting a magic missile instead of firing a gun.

[Elerond]

Yes as long guns are muskets or something similar. Muskets were in most cases inaccurate weapons in long range and they were slow to reload, which was reason why musketeers also carried swords.

 

In most fantasy games you can have full plate armour, but there is no black powder weapons, although in our world they were invented in same era.

[war:head]

This really depends on the type of firearm they plan to have. If we are talking magazine fed or breach loaded bolt action rifles or better then I would say no as they would be hopelessly overpowering if they were at all realistic. But if they were based on muzzle loaded muskets or rifles and had their fire rates and power then I wouldn't mind.

They are the sort of firearms found in 16th century Europe: uncommon and nothing more advanced than single-shot wheellocks.

 

So no Steampunk crap? I'm good then.

[trulez]

This really depends on the type of firearm they plan to have. If we are talking magazine fed or breach loaded bolt action rifles or better then I would say no as they would be hopelessly overpowering if they were at all realistic. But if they were based on muzzle loaded muskets or rifles and had their fire rates and power then I wouldn't mind.

They are the sort of firearms found in 16th century Europe: uncommon and nothing more advanced than single-shot wheellocks.

 

Then why have them at all. What do they bring to the table ?

 

I can understand implementing useful firearms, even if I don't agree with that, but what's the point of having impractical ones ?

 

I just rather not see gunpowder implemented in any form, because it opens a whole other can of worms besides firearms. If the firearms you're implementing are going to be cumbersome and impractical then why not just leave them out.

Edited September 19, 2012 by trulez

[CommissarMega]

I just rather not see gunpowder implemented in any form, because it opens a whole other can of worms besides firearms. If the firearms you're implementing are going to be cumbersome and impractical then why not just leave them out.

 

I can definitely see it- story setting. Even a fantasy world can't stay swords-and-sorcery forever. The world is moving on, ancient traditions are being overturned. The old guard might not like it, but their opinion is irrelevant, the world MUST move on.

 

Besides, there have been hints of Conquistador-like expeditions in the game, can't have Conquistadors without their muskets and morions, right? And again, guns were much simpler to use and train with than bows. Maybe there's a proficiency stat that rises fatser with guns than bows, but bows are ultimately more effective in the long run. Or something.

 

EDIT: Besides, we already know of massive bombs being used in the game's past.

Edited September 19, 2012 by CommissarMega

[Sales101]

I have to say no unless obsidian can give a detailed post on how they will be implemented into the game. If they can show it will balance the game and won't take away from it. They have not even said what time period the game is in. All we know is you are thrusted into some situation.

[CommissarMega]

I have to say no unless obsidian can give a detailed post on how they will be implemented into the game. If they can show it will balance the game and won't take away from it. They have not even said what time period the game is in. All we know is you are thrusted into some situation.

 

Indications such as the presence of said firearms along with transoceanic colonies and expeditions seem to set this at the beginning or middle of the Age of Sail/Colonization, as opposed to the Dark Ages.

[Canova]

didnt see that J.E. Sawyer post before

well, if this is done deal then i just hope you guys have some really, really good explanation for existence of mechanical firearms (if they are indeed mechanical and powered by gunpowder, instead of more more appropriate magic based "guns") in your high fantasy setting.

and i really hope they are indeed very uncommon, hopefully unusable by protagonist or any party member.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Canova

[CommissarMega]

didnt see that J.E. Sawyer post before

well, if this done deal i just hope you guys have some really, really good explanation for existence of mechanical firearms (if they are indeed mechanical and powered by gunpowder, instead of more more appropriate magic based "guns") in your high fantasy setting.

and i really hope they are indeed very uncommon, hopefully unusable by protagonist or any party member.

 

Nay, I'd say make firearms prevalent and usable by all, just with some drawbacks (bows would, of course, have different drawbacks) commensurate with their effectiveness.

[Shatau]

I can´t say Yes or No, for that to decide I don´t know enough of the world the game plays in.

But I´m not against firearms, especially if there is a race or class for which it would be believable to use them.

[Elerond]

I see how one use in battle musket could add tactical depth to fights. So your character has this weapon which pierces even heaviest armour easily, but you can use it only one enemy so you much choose whom of the enemies you shot down and then be ready to defeat rest in close combat.

 

And magic will have new perspective also, as you must decide do your mage go to all in assault or will he/she protect your party form return fire.

 

So in my point of view there is good place in game for cumbersome and impractical guns , even in fantasy setting.

[pipboy2000]

First of all: This is my personal opinion. I understand, that there will be firearms in PE and I understand, that the majority of the people over here want to see them in the game.

But still I want to explain why, in my point of view, firearms destroy a true fantasy setting.

 

Second: English is not my native language, so if I make mistakes or express something in a clumsy way, please be lenient towards me.

 

I don't like firearms in a fantasy setting for one major reason: They give me an "end of an era" feeling (like in "Last Samurai" for example) which I really do not like at all.

 

Let me explain:

 

It is right, that firearms appeared on the battlefields of Europe in the 1340s and it is right, that this were still the middle ages. The late (!) middle ages, to be exact.

 

Nevertheless, the introduction of firearms was THE fundamental change on the battlefields.

Not from one day to the other, of course, but mankind had fought with swords, spears, bows, riders etc. for more than thousand years (of course the Romans used other equipment than the crusaders, for example, but it still was the same category) and all of that ended with the use of guns and cannons.

 

The firearms changed many things:

 

- They made it possible, that a relatively untrained, unprofessional fighter could easily shoot down a high trained, heavy armored knight.

 

- Cannons with case shots (canister shots?), which were first used in the 15th century, were devastating on the battlefield. Not only were they able to kill a lot of enemies with one single shot, but many victims were maimed (mutilated?), which, in my opinion, doesn't fit in a fantasy setting.

 

- The use of cannons during a siege made many of the older castles obsolete. Their firepower forced the military to build new fortifications which didn't look like the castles that I would expect in a fantasy setting at all, since the walls of a "classic" medieval castle could not withstand the new artillery.

 

(There are surely many more points, but I can't put my finger on them right now, since I am not a studied military strategist. But I hope you can get, at least a little bit, my point.)

 

If there are firearms in a fantasy setting, it gives me the feeling, that this world is about to turn into a setting with "Landsknecht-like" soldiers/armies, and I don't like that at all. I don't know how to explain, but it just doesn't feel right in a fantasy setting.

Not only I really hate the clothes of those Landsknecht bastards , but these men were brutal slaughterers who were, for example in the Thirty Years War, capable of unspeakable bestialities, which, again, in my opinion do not fit in the fantasy setting, I would expect from PE.

 

To cut a very long story a little bit shorter: In my opinion, a fantasy game with firearms just lacks the right "medieval feel"... and yes, of course this applies to "Warhammer" or "Warcraft", to give some examples.

 

I have seen enough of those games, lately. I cannot understand why bows and crossbows aren't enough! In my eyes, there really is NO need for guns in a fantasy setting...

 

If I had the choice, PE would "feel" like "Baldur's Gate", "Neverwinter Nights" or maybe "Dragon Age" and not like the before mentioned.

 

Do I still want to back this game? Yes, of course! I think this is an awesome project and I am excited about the game it will eventually become! But I would lie, if I would say that I am happy with the decision to use firearms in PE.

 

pipboy2000

[Kopi]

...

I don't like firearms in a fantasy setting for one major reason: They give me an "end of an era" feeling (like in "Last Samurai" for example) which I really do not like at all.

...

 

This is exactly how I feel about this.

[CommissarMega]

Well then, we'd have to agree that we each have those viewpoints, and to live and let live. Me, i love that feeling, that the old is about to be replaced by the new, that the world is about to change. Sure, we must spare some feelings for the world about to be left behind, but that is progress. As things change, so do our possibilities expand!

 

And for the record, knights and so-called nobility, as well as the armies they raised in times of war, were as terrible people as any Landsknecht. At least those guys were honest about why they fought.

[Ravinous]

Guns... well that is a "loaded" question. If they are balanced! I mean giving a goblin the rapid fire RPG at lvl 5 that does 800 damage per rocket vrs my party where magic missle is my best atk with 2d6 damage is broken!

 

If you spend the time to balance hand held weapons / Single shot bows cross bows / magic AND / guns then BRING IT ON...

 

If this is just going to break the classes that pick them up dont waste your time. Also, be careful not to "HURT" the player using the gun, if this break my char(s) when using guns they why put one on.

 

Will be hard to add into the game but if done right will be awesome to see!

[Carcosa]

as for doubts along the lines of, "i don't want guns because it puts the untrained on equal footing with a veteran soldier" or fears that guns might represent "the end of an era"... have you considered that, perhaps, those are the exact intentions Obsidian has re: firearms and this setting? perhaps their entire goal is to provide the setting of a world in conflict, or a world "moving on"?

 

an actual, well-crafted and interesting fantasy world doesn't remain stagnant for millions of years. if you want it to feel like a living, breathing world filled with people who are living genuine lives, not just as functions waiting for the character to come around and react to, then we likewise have to assume that those people are doing things. could that include, i don't know, discovering their version of gunpowder and inventing the gun? sure, just as it might include devising an easier way to bring in the harvest, or preserve water for long sea-voyages, or how to use sheep intestines as condoms.

 

a major issue i'm seeing is people either considering this game an analog for, you know, real life and history or that Obsidian is playing it straight, offering by the books fantasy (which, yes, they did say they were making a fantasy game). you realize, i hope, that they are crafting an entirely new setting based on nothing but their own imaginations, right? they're not operating within the bounds of a license or anything. the fact is... it doesn't have to be anywhere near to any of that. which means they are certainly not bound to play by the rules of what we know from our actual Earth or any of the fantasy we've come across thus far.

 

the truth is, we don't know nearly enough about the game to say anything one way or another and to be honest i sort of wish they hadn't said anything at all until they were ready for a huge infodump and saved us all the trouble of speculation. and believe me, i understand that maybe some of you feel you were sold a bill of goods and expect a classic, traditional high-fantasy RPG and anything that deviates from the mold is to be vilified. but i don't think there's a problem with waiting to see what Obsidian's got lined up.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Carcosa

[Canova]

Well then, we'd have to agree that we each have those viewpoints, and to live and let live. Me, i love that feeling, that the old is about to be replaced by the new, that the world is about to change. Sure, we must spare some feelings for the world about to be left behind, but that is progress. As things change, so do our possibilities expand!

yet many high fantasy worlds do change over time. civilizations rise and fall, entire races sometimes disapear and most importantly magic and the way its used change all the time. there are bunch of settings where ancient magic was primitive, like more wild and dangerous. as time progresses races of the world find new ways to use magic.

so yeah, those worlds arent frozen in time. they change and progress, however presence of force like magic and all sorts of supernatural phenomena means they will develop in quite different way than our own world.

[pipboy2000]

as for doubts along the lines of, "i don't want guns because it puts the untrained on equal footing with a veteran soldier" or fears that guns might represent "the end of an era"... have you considered that, perhaps, those are the exact intentions Obsidian has re: firearms and this setting? perhaps their entire goal is to provide the setting of a world in conflict, or a world "moving on"?

 

Oh yes, of course I have considered this. It is their game and therefore their decision, how they create it and I admit, that a "world moving on" has its own appeal.

 

But, first of all, this thread is about "Do you want firearms in Project Eternity?" and that is what I answered to.

 

And second: I wrote about MY opinion and why I do not like firearms in a fantasy setting.

I can understand everyone, who has a different point of view. Many people have certain expectations about PE and mine was, that it is set in a fantasy setting. Since I don't like firearms in a fantasy setting, I am, understandably, a little bit disappointed.

I hope you can understand my point of view.

 

pipboy2000

Edited September 19, 2012 by pipboy2000

[Kargos]

I can understand why some folks don't want guns included, and good points have been made, as it does dilute that pure high fantasy feeling that was in the IE games. I personally like their inclusion however, as I can see them adding more tactical options to combat. Jumping into the fray with a sword and pistol and saving that one shot that can turn the battle would definitely be cool to see in game.

 

Also, it will be interesting to see how they fit into the lore and current times once we find out more about the setting, as a lot of how firearms themselves feel in the game will depend on how well they're written in.

[TheyCallMeElvenKing]

I prefer no firearms, I like the old school blades, bows and magic approach.

[Karranthain]

Well, the poll's redundant now, since firearms are in the game. But here are a few idea on how to make them unique and interesting :

 

http://forums.obsidi...s/#entry1193908

[OldRPG'sAreGood]

I like the inclusion of firearms because they have great potential to "spice up" the setting. Firearms and their effect of mages and magic alone, is, IMO, an interesting subject. Would a bullet stop like an arrow when it comes to an impact with a shielding spell? Can firearms be enchanted(usefully so) somehow? Cursed? Generally speaking, how do firearms fare against mages and how do they react to magic.