Update #3: Game Basics - Your Party, Your Characters, and Races

[J.E. Sawyer]

I love the female dwarf art, but if it's boreal regions, why does she have bare knees and arms? She would get frostbite in no time.

Boreal climates are not always below freezing. Many boreal climates have peak summer temperatures above 60 degrees Fahrenheit. A month ago I went cycling around Crater Lake in southern Oregon. At night the temperature dropped to the mid-40s, but during the day it was in the high-60s in the mid-afternoon. I was wearing a short-sleeved cycling jersey and cycling shorts and was quite warm despite the fact that there were huge snowdrifts still present around the crater.

[IEfan]

I honestly like the direction a LOT and i'm a pretty big BG-series fan. Seems like you guys got your stuff together / that you've given a lot of thought on what systems should realistically work and how to improve on old stuff.

 

As for tieflings: they're pretty much elfs with otherworldy demonic or animal features and outer planar lore (anime catgirls shrieks in joy). also fixations to leather/dominatrix. maybe would work of better as an elf sub-race than to take a whole new race (wasn't this how it was in IWD or NWN2 anyways?) if implemented? Looks like i'm answering my question here, hah.

Edited September 18, 2012 by IEfan

[KennethTopp]

Tiefling-like Characters YUSSSS!

[BasaltineBadger]

I'm not a big fan of thieflings and whatever their good counterparts were called. I surely hope that the greenskins ogres or giants are playable here.

[tamimh]

Hi and thanks for the review

I'm looking forward to hear about the progress of project eternity (and my investment ).

 

I still think that Planescape Torment was the BEST game EVER created. Games like baldures gate and Ice wind dale had their magic and marked their place in hall of fame but Planescape Torment was your master piece!

If you could recreate the setting, atmosphere and engine of these games to fit today's games, I think people will admire and forever remember your role in this.

 

One final thing. learn from BLIZZADR mistakes. they have done a very very very bad job with DIABLO 3.

 

Good luck,

 

TH

[The_Mangler]

I am not sure if this is the place to post this comment, but i wanted to make mention, or possibly raise this question.

 

In Neverwinter Nights 2 no matter who you had in the leading the party, when you talked to NPC that turned hostile towards the group it would put your main character right in the forefront. This would be fine if you had made a fighter, but if you had made a caster of sorts you were leading him to the slaughter. i had arranged the party to have my "tanks" in the front, but was continually let down when my main character, who was a wizard, was somehow placed in the front to be hacked to pieces or pin cushioned.

 

i was wondering if this would be changed in the game dynamics of Project Eternity.

 

Thank you.

 

Matthew Bajda.

(i am not afraid to use my real name)

[Cantousent]

I am not sure if this is the place to post this comment, but i wanted to make mention, or possibly raise this question.

 

In Neverwinter Nights 2 no matter who you had in the leading the party, when you talked to NPC that turned hostile towards the group it would put your main character right in the forefront. This would be fine if you had made a fighter, but if you had made a caster of sorts you were leading him to the slaughter. i had arranged the party to have my "tanks" in the front, but was continually let down when my main character, who was a wizard, was somehow placed in the front to be hacked to pieces or pin cushioned.

 

i was wondering if this would be changed in the game dynamics of Project Eternity.

 

Thank you.

 

Matthew Bajda.

(i am not afraid to use my real name)

Great point, Matthew. Part and parcel of having someone being able to speak for the party is that he or she need not speak from ten feet in front of them. The spokesman could be in the middle of the group. It's *always* chapped my hide that the mechanics change where folks are standing during conversations and put people in places they would never stand given the duration of the conversation. If I see possible combat coming with the other group, I'm going to position my group better. Fighters will step forward. Clerics and mages will step behind them. Rogues and rangers will seek better places for flanking.

[Nivenus]

If Bilbo Baggins made the journey why some bored peasant can't ?

 

Bilbo was teh Chosen One, he couldn't fail.

 

Eh? My impression was always that Bilbo was canonically just some hobbit that Gandalf found and thought showed an unusual amount of boldness for the race. I don't remember him ever fulfilling a specific prophecy or what not.

 

Besides which, if he was meant to fulfill some great destiny (destroying the Ring) he did fail that, as did his cousin Frodo. If anyone was the Chosen One it's arguably Gollum, since it was explicitly his "role" to destroy the Ring (accidentally).

 

I honestly like the direction a LOT and i'm a pretty big BG-series fan. Seems like you guys got your stuff together / that you've given a lot of thought on what systems should realistically work and how to improve on old stuff.

 

As for tieflings: they're pretty much elfs with otherworldy demonic or animal features and outer planar lore (anime catgirls shrieks in joy). also fixations to leather/dominatrix. maybe would work of better as an elf sub-race than to take a whole new race (wasn't this how it was in IWD or NWN2 anyways?) if implemented? Looks like i'm answering my question here, hah.

 

I've never really thought of tieflings as elves myself. I mean, mechanically they occasionally share similarities (3e tieflings had a bonus to Dexterity), but they're actually pretty different if we're just looking at generic high elves or wood elves (if we bring drow into the equation, I'll admit the similarities get much larger). Not only are tieflings different thematically (demon-spawn who are distrusted and struggle with their own origins) but they're fairly different mechanically as well, what their demonically thematic racial abilities and a generally hardier constitution (along with, depending on the system, a bonus or penalty to Charisma).

 

In any case, they've hardly confirmed tieflings (although they could, since the race was released by WotC as part of the GSL) as a race - they've merely confirmed something similar thematically (which I'm guessing means planetouched generally or something similar).

[SilverMoonDragon2]

Thanks! It all sounds awesome so far, keep up with the good work!

[Archon]

Project Eternity is still early in development and we are still working on many of the cultures, factions, and ethnic groups of the world and debating many of the system concepts. However, there are certain fundamental things we want to let you know about the game and the setting for Project Eternity.

 

Your Party

The maximum party size is the player's main character (PC) and up to five companions for a total of six characters. This does not preclude the addition of temporary characters in special circumstances. Companions are never forced on the player. Players can explore the entire world and its story on their own if they so choose. We feel companions are excellent sounding boards for the player's (and other companions') actions, but the story is ultimately about the player's personal conflict among the larger social and political complexities of the world.

My only fear in this is that with so few companions, it will end up akin to Bioware's "catch-em-all" BFF-collection "parties", with very little true choice in the way your party plays out or is shaped. This is doubly true if you "just happen" to get one of every class - something that by itself stifles replayability, but is also such a trope, as if you're making them for the sake of making them, rather than to have interesting, fitting characters. Mechanically fitting or appropriate choices is in no way mutually exclusive to good storytelling, but it is just so incredibly boring to see "The Ranger", "The Warrior", "The Mage", rather than characters developed for their own sake.

 

Is there no chance that we'll be seeing more companions than there are classes, or more relevant class-options than there are companions assigned to their roles? I was so very, very, very much hoping that we'd be able to get away from the ever-shrinking party options of modern RPGs. I want to do themed parties again.

 

[...] elves, dwarves), [...]

Bleh.

 

 

I know exactly what you mean but I don't think that's what he meant. Given the games this is styled after, it's likely that while your part will be 6 adventurers, that 6 will be comprised of a selection from a larger cast, forcing you to choose which characters join you. My hope is that it won't be like NWN2 and DA:O where even if you do not have a character in your party they still count as being in your group.

No, the main games has exactly 5 potential companions. It then grows with every added class: http://www.kickstart...-eternity/posts

 

Well. 6 classes and 6 companions, now. But still.

 

Indeed. Having 1 companion per class is also my main concern at the moment.

If we don't "like" a companion personality but have good use of his/her class / talents in our party, no way to fire/kill him/her because there's no one else with this class.

 

But having the 3 traditional Fantasy races with 2 new ones looks like a good compromise. Especially with subraces.

[IEfan]

I honestly like the direction a LOT and i'm a pretty big BG-series fan. Seems like you guys got your stuff together / that you've given a lot of thought on what systems should realistically work and how to improve on old stuff.

 

As for tieflings: they're pretty much elfs with otherworldy demonic or animal features and outer planar lore (anime catgirls shrieks in joy). also fixations to leather/dominatrix. maybe would work of better as an elf sub-race than to take a whole new race (wasn't this how it was in IWD or NWN2 anyways?) if implemented? Looks like i'm answering my question here, hah.

 

I've never really thought of tieflings as elves myself. I mean, mechanically they occasionally share similarities (3e tieflings had a bonus to Dexterity), but they're actually pretty different if we're just looking at generic high elves or wood elves (if we bring drow into the equation, I'll admit the similarities get much larger). Not only are tieflings different thematically (demon-spawn who are distrusted and struggle with their own origins) but they're fairly different mechanically as well, what their demonically thematic racial abilities and a generally hardier constitution (along with, depending on the system, a bonus or penalty to Charisma).

 

In any case, they've hardly confirmed tieflings (although they could, since the race was released by WotC as part of the GSL) as a race - they've merely confirmed something similar thematically (which I'm guessing means planetouched generally or something similar).

Of course game mechanic-wise you are definitely right but I guess I'm just being snarky over the favoritism of tieflings (which is similiar to reasons why people like drows but Now With Demon Horns And Tails). I'd like to see want to see cool new races but maybe I don't like the idea that instead of cool new ideas/races, we'd end up more with human/elf-like derivatives, whose focal point is about their demonic/holy/catlike/shadow/etc FEATURES in outer appearance. It's a waste of a race slot and good new lore/ideas if old ideas like drows (everybody wants to be their life's cool Drizzt Do'Urden...)...

 

IDK, it's a tough subject. As the designer, you'd want to please the audience (if only for possible pledges) but you might have to sacrifise some world beliavibility and (mature) script possibilites for favourite races like drows... and let's face it, a big draw for those races are coolness factor.

 

But you know, that I'm being reasonable about this in these posts probably won't change the minds of anybody that like them already, so I'm thinking that (besides new races) maybe figuring out new esthetics or different culture or similiar for the old races is a good compromise? Idk any examples but maybe you can keep the essential features of Drows (black cool elves with white holy hair) and alter them to a fresh direction. Sort of what you already saw with the southern dwarven ranger in the update (which is pr much what i'm talking about these two posts - just extended to fanfiction-favourites eg tieflings and drows as well!) - for example, Incan-design drows and Pantherman drows in esthetics... Twists in old favourites. I hope this post makes sense, I tried my best to be level about this.

 

EDIT Oh! You're right, of course nothing is confirmed yet. My experiences with tieflings is restricted to... BG2 (groans at the memory of Haer'Dalis) and NWN2 if it helps you to understand. I guess these posts were more about having bigger changes in races and hopefully having cool new ones than seeing the old cliches. *IEfan shrieks as Nivenus comes around the corner as a Rakhasha*

 

EDIT2: jesus, basically my post bogs down to that i hope they change as much cliheish factors from old favourites as much as possible/to fresh new direction and hopefully include interesting new races that net-gain is more in the side of "different"/alien moreso than human. Like how ME has all these alien races that are still recognizeably bipedals like human's but with very distinct and different features, not FLOATING INTELLIGENT GOOS or other similiar stuff from Master of Orion and similiar scifi. Races not for just coolness factor, u know... okay i stop talking.

Edited September 18, 2012 by IEfan

[Red Bart]

I didn't ask how it was supposed to be implemented mechanically. I asked how that even makes sense. A guy just standing around a field isn't going to want to tag along with your rag-tag bunch of misfits. He's got family and fields to tend to.

 

Just grabbing just anyone from the road or a field or an alley wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.

As previous posters have pointed out, it worked for Bilbo, and it worked for Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin. And it worked for the start of Fallout (you start as a civilian in a fallout shelter) and Fallout New Vegas (a regular courier). And of course Neverwinter Nights 2 where you actually start out as a peasant in a swamp village. So not that far fetched, I'd think.

[Nivenus]

And of course Neverwinter Nights 2 where you actually start out as a peasant in a swamp village. So not that far fetched, I'd think.

 

To be fair, in NWN2 it turned out you weren't quite as ordinary as you thought. But yes, there are a lot of examples of the "peasant turned hero" storyline to draw upon, which be a plus or a minus depending on how you choose to view it.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Nivenus

[hideo kuze]

Project Eternity is still early in development and we are still working on many of the cultures, factions, and ethnic groups of the world and debating many of the system concepts. However, there are certain fundamental things we want to let you know about the game and the setting for Project Eternity.

 

Your Party

The maximum party size is the player's main character (PC) and up to five companions for a total of six characters. This does not preclude the addition of temporary characters in special circumstances. Companions are never forced on the player. Players can explore the entire world and its story on their own if they so choose. We feel companions are excellent sounding boards for the player's (and other companions') actions, but the story is ultimately about the player's personal conflict among the larger social and political complexities of the world.

My only fear in this is that with so few companions, it will end up akin to Bioware's "catch-em-all" BFF-collection "parties", with very little true choice in the way your party plays out or is shaped. This is doubly true if you "just happen" to get one of every class - something that by itself stifles replayability, but is also such a trope, as if you're making them for the sake of making them, rather than to have interesting, fitting characters. Mechanically fitting or appropriate choices is in no way mutually exclusive to good storytelling, but it is just so incredibly boring to see "The Ranger", "The Warrior", "The Mage", rather than characters developed for their own sake.

 

Is there no chance that we'll be seeing more companions than there are classes, or more relevant class-options than there are companions assigned to their roles? I was so very, very, very much hoping that we'd be able to get away from the ever-shrinking party options of modern RPGs. I want to do themed parties again.

 

 

 

 

First of all I don't see this project ending with less than 3 million (it's possible for it to reach 4 or 5). So that means at least 8 companions.

And while I also prefer to have a group of something like 12 or 15 characters to chosen from, I'm more than happy with 8 memorable companions to chose from.

 

Maybe adding another 5 or 6 not so memorable/deep characters can appease both crowds.

 

 

I wonder if you'll be able to create more than one PC during your character/party generation.

 

 

[...] elves, dwarves), [...]

Bleh.

 

It's what you do with it that counts

Edited September 19, 2012 by hideo kuze

[KateM]

Elves and Dwarves are so overdone I'd rather not have them at all. You can remix the trope all you want- eskimo dwarves, elves that live underground, whatever. I'm just sick of seeing them. They don't seem to serve any purpose to the universe that a human could not.

 

There are maybe two execptions. You could have a universe where there was a "neanderthal" race that never went extinct. Bigger, stronger, smarter than humans, but despite that the more social and organized humans have pushed them to the fringes. The other trope I can deal with is the elves as a sneaky, evil race who kidnap humans for slaves, something like they were in the germanic legends they spawned from.

 

Anyway, I just don't think that you really need a big hodgepodge of races for a fantasy setting. Look at Game of Thrones or The Black Company, for example, which get along just fine with only humans. The only reason I've ever played an elf in a videogame is if the human characters looked particuarly ugly by comparison.

[bigdogchris]

One "feature" that I'm really disappointed with in newer RPG's, like DA:O, is that NPC/companion's level is set mirrored to your primary character when you find them.

 

I'd like to see NPC's have their own traits and personalities when you encounter them. This may mean that when they join your party, they are higher or lower than your expected level at that time. It may also mean that they may not have the 'optimal' skill/ability configurations but rather a configuration that reflects them as a unique person.

 

Also, I really enjoy the portrait.

Edited September 19, 2012 by bigdogchris

[KateM]

I'd like to see NPC's have their own traits and personalities when you encounter them. This may mean that when they join your party, they are higher or lower than your expected level at that time. It may also mean that they may not have the 'optimal' skill/ability configurations but rather a configuration that reflects them as a unique person.

I don't see how including companions who will be either useless or overpowered depending on when you meet them is good game design. Scaling companions to the PC's level is one of the few things Bioware has done right. They can still be unique, just like the companions in PS:T were all unique, regardless of their power level.

[Enoch]

One "feature" that I'm really disappointed with in newer RPG's, like DA:O, is that NPC/companion's level is set mirrored to your primary character when you find them.

You do realize that Baldur's Gate worked this way, right? (It wasn't a perfect mirror, but I recall many characters scrounging about for XP with Imoen so that they could make it to level 2 before going and meeting Khalid & Jahiera, so that they would be higher level when they joined up. Wasn't always easy for a multi-class.)

[kilohansel]

That's always a sticky wicket, though, especially if the party doesn't share experience. You might adventure with someone for a while and seek to use another companion for a quest, only to find that the second companion is painfully under leveled.

[Tychoxi]

Matthew Bajda.

(i am not afraid to use my real name)

 

Oh yeah? Well you should be weary, my friend. You should fear names, for they have power in identity. Others can use names as weapons. Names are a hook that can be used to track you accross the planes...

Edited September 19, 2012 by Tychoxi

[IcyDeadPeople]

*duplicate post

Edited September 19, 2012 by IcyDeadPeople

[Ieo]

Oh yeah? Well you should be weary, my friend. You should fear names, for they have power in identity. Others can use names as weapons. Names are a hook that can be used to track you accross the planes...

 

Absence of Name = Absence of Identity = Absence of Purpose = Absence of Place in Multiverse = Null State = Loss.

[Luckmann]

I am not sure if this is the place to post this comment, but i wanted to make mention, or possibly raise this question.

 

In Neverwinter Nights 2 no matter who you had in the leading the party, when you talked to NPC that turned hostile towards the group it would put your main character right in the forefront. This would be fine if you had made a fighter, but if you had made a caster of sorts you were leading him to the slaughter. i had arranged the party to have my "tanks" in the front, but was continually let down when my main character, who was a wizard, was somehow placed in the front to be hacked to pieces or pin cushioned.

 

i was wondering if this would be changed in the game dynamics of Project Eternity.

 

Thank you.

 

Matthew Bajda.

(i am not afraid to use my real name)

If anything, I really, really, really, really, really hope that they'll be using something like the Storm of Zehir dialogue system for Project Eternity. Being able to, during a conversation, pick who says what is incredibly useful and immersive, especially if you have NPCs that may have special dialogue options depending on their factional affiliation (like the Shadow Thief you could recruit in Storm of Zehir, gave you a special dialogue choice when talking to a Shadow Thief NPC).

 

It would be so incredible to see.

 

Edit: And of course your main character would also have special things to say at times, that would not be appropriate for other party members to say, considering that you are the leader of the party, etc.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Luckmann

[Nivenus]

I liked the idea Storm of Zehir's dialogue system as well, though at times I felt like I had too much control over whether my companions could pipe up or not. As a result, none of the characters really resonated with me or felt real. I'd rather that they pop in to say something when it's useful, whether or not you ask them to or not - just like an actual person might in real-life.

[SanguineAngel]

No, the main games has exactly 5 potential companions. It then grows with every added class: http://www.kickstart...-eternity/posts

 

Well. 6 classes and 6 companions, now. But still.

 

That's when he is talking about maximum party size.

 

Goes on to say " It is no coincidence that there are at least as many companions as there are classes" implying that there will be more potential companions than the number of classes but that they will add companions with classes to continue their theme of having all classes available to you.

No, dude, check update #2. Base goals and stretch goals.

 

Ah I see, I didn't spot that, thanks. Although that does mean there are currently 6 companions to choose your 5 party members from and at the current rate of funding, 7 looks very likely. Still a few more would also be nice