[Merged] DRM Discussion Thread

[Kloreep]

I've never heard of GOG.com distributing things not bought from GOG.com, with the exception of the Witcher. Them validating Kickstarter rewards would be a first.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Wouldn't be a complete first, they did this for FTL. Though it looks like that was only about 10,000 backers, and Eternity is well over 30,000 in just a few days?

 

Hadn't heard about the new Carmageddon, but I guess this is something GOG is willing to do (though we no have idea what the terms of the deal were).

[metiman]

I am seriously thinking about donating $250-$500 to this project, which is a huge amount of money for me. However, without a commitment to a DRM-free release, at least on the DVD version, I will be forced to acquire my own DRM free version through other venues and save my money for other things. DRM is so pointless. It does'n't work and it makes the legal copy inferior to the illegal one.

[Jarmo]

If Baldurs Gate required one time online activation (from black isle servers),

there'd have been no (legal) way to play it in the last decade (assuming people don't have their decade old PC's in use).

 

I can live with Steam and I pledged $20.

 

But if there's confirmation the boxed version will have no DRM at all, I'll change my pledge to $100 or $140.

Or if there's some midway pledge, where the game will be on gog.com instead of steam, I'll take that.

[Freddo]

If Baldurs Gate required one time online activation (from black isle servers),

there'd have been no (legal) way to play it in the last decade (assuming people don't have their decade old PC's in use)

Yeah, this is exactly why I dislike online activations so much. Sure, Steam is all nice now, but who knows what happens in the next 20 years?

[Humodour]

DOWN WITH DRM!

 

Et cetera.

[Mamoulian War]

Well, that's a shame. I'll put my grimy little vote token in the GoG bucket, then (for digital download) and I'll still hope that the only DRM on the box is a disc check or offline reg code at most.

 

I'm glad you mentioned that, because DRM was a term that didn't exist back when we got our games on CD or floppy disk, but copy protection have existed even since the floppy days.

 

So I'm curious as to what people meant by DRM, is it the online DRM, or does it include traditional copy protection. IMO, its not reasonable to expect Obsidian to forfeit all copy protection. Otherwise I will bet you there will be people who buy the game and share the installer with their friends and divide the cost. Some people are that cheap.

 

Obsidian do have the right to protect their work at least with CD keys or something. It doesn't have to be online DRM, but at least to deter people from easily sharing the game.

 

For me DRM is the stuff which steals away your rights to use your original game without middle-man (aka limited activations, one time online activation). I never had a problems with disc checks and CD keys. You can install uninstall how many times you like it. I have stored all my games on a single place, for me it is the question of 30 seconds to grab even 15 years old game, install it and play the game right away. With the online activation even if I grab the disc, there is lot of possibilities, that you will not be able to play the game right away. As a working person I have limited free time to play my games, and the last thing I want to do, is to wait when someone on the customer support kindly decides to pick up my phone after using up my install and allowing me to play that damn thing... Anything which requires contact with third person party after install is a no go for me. I never purchased anything which required any form of third party autenthification, not on PC not on PS3 not on my Android phone, and I will continue with this, because there are so many quality games released every year, especially now with the indie and kickstarter boom, you can freely skip any game and still have tons on fun.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Mamoulian War

[Phinelete]

The pro-DRM folks (and even Obsidian, which is simply SAD) seem to forget about one tiny detail...

 

This project has launched on KICKSTARTER. It is being funded by PEOPLE. Gamers and GAMERS ALONE. There are no publishers involved. No shareholders to please.

Punishing gamers with DRM for their enthusiasm and willingness to fund this game would be nothing short of a slap in the face. That would be insulting.

 

Those who pledge should totally receive DRM free copies. Especially those who are bound to receive boxed copies.

The fact we have to BEG for that priviledge means Obsidian do not understand the idea behind Kickstarter. That means they have the same mentality as publishers (why do you think they chose RTwP over Turn Based combat, as well? For the exact same reasons any publisher would choose it).

[Mamoulian War]

Off topic: They announced it as a spiritual successor to IE games, not ToEE... So RTwP is the only logical conclusion. Trying to find any other reason behind it, is just a plain conspiracy.

[Lysen]

I've changed my opinion on Steam, when I woke up tomorrow morning and turned my PC on. And this is why http://forums.2kgames.com/showthread.php?135486-Russian-Lockdown

 

If you don't live in North America, stay away from this service.

[sesobebo]

The pro-DRM folks (and even Obsidian, which is simply SAD) seem to forget about one tiny detail...

 

This project has launched on KICKSTARTER. It is being funded by PEOPLE. Gamers and GAMERS ALONE. There are no publishers involved. No shareholders to please.

Punishing gamers with DRM for their enthusiasm and willingness to fund this game would be nothing short of a slap in the face. That would be insulting.

 

Those who pledge should totally receive DRM free copies. Especially those who are bound to receive boxed copies.

The fact we have to BEG for that priviledge means Obsidian do not understand the idea behind Kickstarter. That means they have the same mentality as publishers (why do you think they chose RTwP over Turn Based combat, as well? For the exact same reasons any publisher would choose it).

 

What are You talking about?

 

The only official mention, as far as I know, of any kind of DRM so far has been:

Q: How will I get my digital copy of the game?

A: We are still exploring the idea of offering number of options, but one of those is definitely going to be Steam.

 

Please notice that, no one is mentioning boxed copies, and that Steam (with it's inherent DRM) is there only as one of the possible digital distributors (and I'd guess it's there not because of it's DRM, but because of it's convenience).

[Phinelete]

Off topic: They announced it as a spiritual successor to IE games, not ToEE... So RTwP is the only logical conclusion. Trying to find any other reason behind it, is just a plain conspiracy.

 

And that's why they advertised their project by something like this: "from the creators of Fallout 1&2, ToEE, Arcanum"?

My point is, why deliberately hurt the combat system? ToEE came out and proved that RTwP is simply worse. That's a fact. Why settle for an inferior solution? Who thought that combat in PS:Torment was good? NONE.

 

They chose RTwP because it's more marketable and they're obviously after the Bioware crowd (need proof? Look at the stretch goals!), it's as easy as that.

But we're derailing the thread.

[evdk]

Also there obviously is no hope of this transforming into a pure TB game and a hybrid system didn't work out so well for Arcanum. So it will be better if they just make a good RTwP combat than try to appese both crowds and create an abomination.

[Phinelete]

Also there obviously is no hope of this transforming into a pure TB game and a hybrid system didn't work out so well for Arcanum.

 

People always bring up Arcanum, but just because it didn't do the "TB/RTwP choice" idea justice doesn't mean the concept is flawed in the first place. Maybe it's not the best example, but check Fallout Tactics - excellent TB combat system and a servicable RT combat. It's doable. Heck, BG2's underlying mechanics were phase-based already, creating a TB ToEE-like option wouldn't be that difficult.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Phinelete

[Mamoulian War]

I've changed my opinion on Steam, when I woke up tomorrow morning and turned my PC on. And this is why http://forums.2kgame...ussian-Lockdown

 

If you don't live in North America, stay away from this service.

 

Back to topic:

 

This is one of many reasons, why DRM does not work and punish only people which are willing to pay for the game and support developers and industry...

[sesobebo]

And that's why they advertised their project by something like this: "from the creators of Fallout 1&2, ToEE, Arcanum"?

My point is, why deliberately hurt the combat system? ToEE came out and proved that RTwP is simply worse. That's a fact. Why settle for an inferior solution? Who thought that combat in PS:Torment was good? NONE.

 

They chose RTwP because it's more marketable and they're obviously after the Bioware crowd (need proof? Look at the stretch goals!), it's as easy as that.

But we're derailing the thread.

Sorry, I'm really not trying to harp on You, but again You seem to be getting Your information from a source unknown to me.

 

Quote from the very first paragraph on the kicksatrter page:

Project Eternity (working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past: Baldur

[WDeranged]

Eurogamer is reporting that there could be no DRM if the project reaches 2.4m, dunno if it's official.

Edited September 17, 2012 by WDeranged

[Reddie]

So I'm curious as to what people meant by DRM, is it the online DRM, or does it include traditional copy protection. IMO, its not reasonable to expect Obsidian to forfeit all copy protection. Otherwise I will bet you there will be people who buy the game and share the installer with their friends and divide the cost. Some people are that cheap.

 

Obsidian do have the right to protect their work at least with CD keys or something. It doesn't have to be online DRM, but at least to deter people from easily sharing the game.

 

DRM is a copy protection scheme, but not the other way around. As the name says, Digital Rights Management has a goal of not only "protecting" said media from being copied, but also (and perhaps most importantly nowadays) to "manage" your rights to it. Meaning that DRM tries to tie a game to a person, either by using some sort of PC signature (e.g. Starforce and other DRMs that act as an optical disk drivers) or by using online accounts, like Steam.

 

This online DRM _would_ be acceptable for me if it was only emulating whatever I can physically do with my purchased product. But the scheme got largely abused by greedy publishers, since it enabled them not only to manage, but to limit your rights as they please. At Steam you no longer own a game, you only have a license subscription - presumably lifetime, but this could change. As such, I - unlike majority of people, I am aware of that - consider Steam one of the WORST DRM in existence. The purchase made on Steam gives me impaired product that I cannot use as I want and as my country's law gives me right to.

 

So having a Steam-exclusive release or a release with Steamworks DRM that requires Steam anyways and forces me to agree to their TOS is completely unacceptable for me and I won't pledge a dime unless Obsidian gives a clear message here. Sorry guys, I'm sure your game will end up awesome, but I want to HAVE it, not RENT it.

[Windemere]

I'm excited about the project and ready to support it as soon as we hear a more convincing promise about DRM. I would be fine if the DVD version of the game has nothing more than a key to enter, and please don't make me have the media in the drive every time I want to play. A GOG version would be great too. I won't support it or buy it if it requires Steam.

[Hornet85]

So having a Steam-exclusive release or a release with Steamworks DRM that requires Steam anyways and forces me to agree to their TOS is completely unacceptable for me and I won't pledge a dime unless Obsidian gives a clear message here. Sorry guys, I'm sure your game will end up awesome, but I want to HAVE it, not RENT it.

I don't think it will be Steamworks, and I don't see any reason to assume so until Obsidian explicitly state it. Steam was selected to distribute these Kickstarter copy because they do allow companies to distribute games that were not bought on Steam. (Remember we are buying the game directly from Obsidian through Kickstarter). I don't think GOG or other distributor will do that, distribute something you did not purchase on their site.

 

Of course, IF there is a DRM free version, then Obsidian will distribute it themself.

 

To be fair, Steam is no different than Origin or Uplay or Battlenet. I can see your point, and I guess its fine if you are not into the more mainstream games like Half Life or Battlefield or Diablo series. As for the rest of us, we have to live with it because the alternative would meant missing out on all these big titles. And it would be hypocritical for anyone who plays Battlefield 3 on Origin or Diablo 3 attached to their Battlenet account to go around here chanting death to DRM and Steam.

 

And I believe we actually purchase a license to use a software each time buy a software and agree to its EULA. This was something that was debated long before online DRM and basically we do not own the rights to a software, but just the rights to use it. Its a complicated thing so I'm not trying to open up that discussion. Just though I'd state it since you mentioned about not owning a software.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Hornet85

[Ink Blot]

Eurogamer is reporting that there could be no DRM if the project reaches 2.4m, dunno if it's official.

 

I'd like to see a source for his statement. Otherwise it looks like he's just completely misinterpreting what Obsidian's been saying, as I've seen nothing to indicate Obsidian said a DRM-free option was tied to funding goals.

[Shadenuat]

Can I have just, like, a box with the game and cool manual, and it's mine, because I did pay for it *in advance*, and I don't need to prove that this motherloving box belongs to me to some second-hand internet publishers, because, uh... *it's mine*? No DRM, please?

[metiman]

DRM is a declaration of war against your own customers.

[Hornet85]

DRM is a declaration of war against your own customers.

I dislike DRM as much as the next person, but Beamdog seems to be getting a free pass.

 

Baldur's Gate EE requires the Beamdog client to run. Haven't heard much people speaking out against it. But perhaps I'm just not listening enough.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Hornet85

[SqueakyCat]

I would definitely have to rethink my investment if Eternity is only available through Steam.

 

I fully admit to 'drinking the koolaid' and accumulating a library of 680 games only to find out I only have a 'subscription' to a license. It's my own fault for not doing proper vetting of the EULA, but I am fully aware now and only buy 'Steamworks' games when they hit the $5 bargain bin.

 

GOG is an acceptable alternative -- really anything that doesn't require a client to be running in the background to play the game.

 

I really hope Obsidian will find an alternative for those of us who do not wish to invest in 'subscriptions'.

[Tale]

Baldur's Gate EE requires the Beamdog client to run.

No it doesn't. The Beamdog client is optional.