Do not make the game isometric

[Sedrefilos]

 

You know all those cool details you see in Planescape: Torment? Try picking something up in the bar. Try opening a door. Try kicking a barrel. It's lifeless and dead. With 3D they can add physics and interactivity to all these details.

A fully interactive environment (e.g. all objects are physics objects) is a huge time/money sink. I doubt this game will have a physics engine at all; it is just not a sensible use of time/money when any attempt to do so is always going to be a poor shadow of the interactive worlds in Skyrim / Just Cause / GTA etc. Far better to spend the budget on the unique selling points of this game, and for world interactivity scripting specific interesting things to interact with (adventure game style) instead of generic physics on everything.

 

Divinity Original Sin is an isomentric, fully 3d game with 100% environment interaction and other unique and innovative mechanics. About same budget, about same development cycle, much much smaller company (Larian Studios). If Obsidian wants, they can do it for sure. Although, yes, I'd rather they don't  go that direction, because they focus on other things.

There's the Divinity games for people who want full world interaction.

[Valorian]

I would like a 3D PoE 2, for sure. Extra dimensions are sweet.

[Infinitron]

Larian is a smaller company than Obsidian, but the Divinity: Original Sin team was much larger than the Pillars of Eternity team.

 

I promise you that it did not have "about the same budget", no matter what they say.

[PrimeJunta]

Not this again.

 

The point with a fixed camera is that it removes one big thing to fiddle with when playing. That makes the game -- including combat -- flow better.

 

At least I'm strongly opposed to a rotatable camera in Pillars 2. Whether it's done with prerendered backgrounds or real-time rendering (like SRR) I don't care. Just no rotatable camera.

 

(And before you go, "Well then just don't rotate it," nope, won't work. Levels have to be designed differently for a fixed camera than a rotatable one.)

[AndreaColombo]

With pre-rendered 2D backgrounds, rotating camera is simply not possible. PoE is a throwback to IE games, which means - among other things - pre-rendered 2D backgrounds. God deliver us from a full 3D experience that looks half as hideous as WL2.

[Cyseal]

Sword coast legends are 3D isometric but I think ,because POE is 2D, has greater athmosphere.

Art direction and creation has more freedom that in 3D creating meshes.

My opinion is that it's crucial that POE2 stays in this way and only getting better now Obs. has established engine.

Going toward  some new 3D engine would only mean more years to produce,harder production value and maybe almost the same amount of years to fix all the bugs glitches, etc...

 

At the moment Unity 5 3D doesn't have that kind a visual enhancements to stand in same level design  as 2D counterpart. It is getting there but not yet.

 

To have this immersive 3D level art and design at the moment the best solution is UE4. To make the game in it with same gameplay and 3D  content would take at least 5 to 6 years.

It's important for Obsidian to enhance the engine they have created now and improve it. Going with something different would send them at very beginning.

[Quillon]

To have this immersive 3D level art and design at the moment the best solution is UE4. To make the game in it with same gameplay and 3D  content would take at least 5 to 6 years.

It's important for Obsidian to enhance the engine they have created now and improve it. Going with something different would send them at very beginning.

 

Obs loves working with new engines, they make their codes portable just to be able to : D

 

But srsly, I prefer 3D with rotatable cam, maybe its cos I wasn't a gamer yet when IE games were around I tried but couldn't get a hang of retroplaying those games. Since PoE marketed to be in this certain style I wouldn't object PoE 2 to be the same but I'm sure I'd enjoy more if it'd be in dragon age origins-style.

[Cyseal]

Obs loves working with new engines, they make their codes portable just to be able to : D

 

But srsly, I prefer 3D with rotatable cam, maybe its cos I wasn't a gamer yet when IE games were around I tried but couldn't get a hang of retroplaying those games. Since PoE marketed to be in this certain style I wouldn't object PoE 2 to be the same but I'm sure I'd enjoy more if it'd be in dragon age origins-style.

 

 

They could, but then Kickstarter backing up would cost double, double the production time, double the tweaking time and patches and double the overall cost.

 

I think it's better to have art and gameplay mproved quality of POE  then go in different direction.

Personally, POE has more immersive art style than DA:O .

Edited December 7, 2015 by Cyseal

[Fenixp]

I spent ages rotating camera in Dragon Age: Origins in such a way that I can see everything properly, walls don't constrain something etc. and the graphics were as dull as dishwater anyway. Pillars looks gorgeous and is perfectly clear at a glance.

[Quillon]

 

Obs loves working with new engines, they make their codes portable just to be able to : D

 

But srsly, I prefer 3D with rotatable cam, maybe its cos I wasn't a gamer yet when IE games were around I tried but couldn't get a hang of retroplaying those games. Since PoE marketed to be in this certain style I wouldn't object PoE 2 to be the same but I'm sure I'd enjoy more if it'd be in dragon age origins-style.

 

 

They could, but then Kickstarter backing up would cost double, double the production time, double the tweaking time and patches and double the overall cost.

 

I think it's better to have art and gameplay mproved quality of POE  then go in different direction.

 

 

That's why they are into fig. More budget from more sources. Not necessarily for PoE 2 but if fig gets popular somehow I'm sure Obs have projects in mind.

[JerekKruger]

I love the 2D rendered backgrounds of both the old IE games and PoE. They are just so beautiful. To my mind 3D backgrounds haven't reached the attractiveness even yet. They're a lot closer than they were when NWN was released (that was horrible to look at) but still not quite there.

[Nicholas Steel]

It's harder to make 3D look as good as 2D in the way that various people in this thread would like, because they also want a rotatable/extremely flexible camera which means things will need to be designed to look good from all angles, wasting time and resources and likely reducing the amount of time each side of an object gets to spend with an artist as you're effectively increasing the visual workload by at least 3x. It would also make Lighting harder to get right so it would be more difficult and costly to create a pleasing and detailed aesthetic.

 

If they stick with a fixed camera that can only zoom in/out like they currently do in POE than it wouldn't be too big of an issue to use 3D for everything, however their engine is currently built for and optimized for 2D assets so switching now wouldn't be ideal and the engine changes required would cut in to the budget if it was to be done for the sequel.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Nicholas Steel

[Hebruixe]

Pre-rendered 2D art > 3D modelling

 

It's also probably cheaper. Which means more content!

 

^This x1000

 

Nothing could hurt PoE worse, imho, than converting it to a WoW-like 3D environment. 3D is the reason RPGs gave up on storytelling and lore-building.

[Quillon]

 

Pre-rendered 2D art > 3D modelling

 

It's also probably cheaper. Which means more content!

 

^This x1000

 

Nothing could hurt PoE worse, imho, than converting it to a WoW-like 3D environment. 3D is the reason RPGs gave up on storytelling and lore-building.

 

 

Makes no sense. If devs focus on action & gameplay(usually with TPS/FPS RPGs) more than storytelling and lore-building that's on them not on game's being 3D. Original fallout 3 was gonna be 3D and that was the natural progression. PoE's having 2D backgrounds are just for nostalgia and/or money reasons, not because 3D limits such things.

[Fenixp]

PoE's having 2D backgrounds are just for nostalgia and/or money reasons, not because 3D limits such things.

And practical reasons. What is the practical benefit of having a 3d isometric game? It doesn't inherently look better, art style is always more important and PoE ended up being one of the most gorgeous games I've seen lately (probably surpassed by Skyrim, but Skyrim wasn't gorgeous because it's 3d, Skyrim was gorgeous because some extremely talented artists worked on the game - and it was first person perspective). The only benefits I can see are technical like proper scaling of backgrounds with resolution, but that can be quite simply solved by backgrounds being high fidelity to begin with, and the benefit of properly animated NPCs, which we got anyway as those are 3d. So ... Again, how would potential Pillars of Eternity 2 benefit from 3d? And would those benefits outweigh the downsides? (repeated textures, much less unique locations due to inherent asset reuse, the game would not be nearly as clear at the first glance unless a ton of polish was put into it) Edited December 8, 2015 by Fenixp

[Ganrich]

Isometric camera on a 2d background has 1 important thing going for it... And that is it keeps the player from having to fight with a camera. Camera hangs on objects, object blocks view from the angle you want, etc, etc. Isometric cameras are always where I need them, and no object will ever interfere with it.

 

Pillars sequels should keep the current paradigm, but if Obsidian hits crowdfunding for another game (not PoE2, but something fresh) and want to go full 3d with a rotating camera? I won't say no, but not for a PoE game.

[Quillon]

 

PoE's having 2D backgrounds are just for nostalgia and/or money reasons, not because 3D limits such things.

And practical reasons. What is the practical benefit of having a 3d isometric game? It doesn't inherently look better, art style is always more important and PoE ended up being one of the most gorgeous games I've seen lately (probably surpassed by Skyrim, but Skyrim wasn't gorgeous because it's 3d, Skyrim was gorgeous because some extremely talented artists worked on the game - and it was first person perspective). The only benefits I can see are technical like proper scaling of backgrounds with resolution, but that can be quite simply solved by backgrounds being high fidelity to begin with, and the benefit of properly animated NPCs, which we got anyway as those are 3d. So ... Again, how would potential Pillars of Eternity 2 benefit from 3d? And would those benefits outweigh the downsides? (repeated textures, much less unique locations due to inherent asset reuse, the game would not be nearly as clear at the first glance unless a ton of polish was put into it)

 

It doesn't have to be that beautiful, 2009's Dragon Age Origins wasn't an ugly game nor I had to fight the cam all the time(tho in another example; sword coast legend's cam is awful). As for benefits of 3D first thing comes to my mind is cutscene dialogues which is huge for dialogue heavy game. Alltho I'm always giving DAO as the example, I'm sure that game had much more budget to begin with. So if Obs will have enough budget for it I'd like them to consider it but like I said before I wouldn't object if it'll be the same as original PoE.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Quillon

[Fenixp]

It doesn't have to be that beautiful, 2009's Dragon Age Origins wasn't an ugly game

It wasn't ugly per se, but:

a) Pillars is beautiful in 2D. DA:O is passable in 3D.

b) It's a prime example of repeated assets. In Dragon Age, most dungeons consisted of rooms which were not visually distinct, they were all very similar with some details shuffled around to make them look unique.

 

nor I had to fight the cam all the time(tho in another example; sword coast legend's cam is awful).

Nonetheless, you've had to fight camera about 100% more than in Pillars, didn't you? But yes, Dragon Age had great production values, it was mostly designed quite well. In spite of that, it happened often enough that some pieces of environment would cover corpses or objects which could be interacted with.

 

As for benefits of 3D first thing comes to my mind is cutscene dialogues which is huge for dialogue heavy game.

Not really. First of all, Pillars of Eternity would gain no benefit from in-engine cutscenes as it's entirely written like a book, not like a movie. It's written to be read, not to be observed and listened to. Now it seems like you prefer the latter approach, but it's not inherently better. Of course, fully animated cutscenes go with voice acting and it feels weird when you don't also get dialogues in the same style. So while yes, 3D engine would benefit some games in that respect, fully animated dialogue/cutscenes is not it. It's also more expensive to create. A LOT more expensive.

[Doppelschwert]

If you look at NWN2, the last (and only, as far as i'm aware of) game of this kind with rotatable camera that obsidian worked on, it should be immediately clear why they did the right decision with the perspective in POE.

 

If not, I dare you to find the single one person on earth that actually enjoyed the camera in NWN2.

[Quillon]

If you look at NWN2, the last (and only, as far as i'm aware of) game of this kind with rotatable camera that obsidian worked on, it should be immediately clear why they did the right decision with the perspective in POE.

 

If not, I dare you to find the single one person on earth that actually enjoyed the camera in NWN2.

Yeah I know the crazy sensitive cam of NWN2, didn't stopped me from putting several hundred hours into the game tho(and the loading times with the system I had back then..phase 1 phase 2.......) but it was 10 years ago. If they couldn't do it in that time doesn't mean it can't be done properly now. Lots of Obs games were bug-fests back then, now not so much.

[Vorad]

 

 

Pre-rendered 2D art > 3D modelling

 

It's also probably cheaper. Which means more content!

 

^This x1000

 

Nothing could hurt PoE worse, imho, than converting it to a WoW-like 3D environment. 3D is the reason RPGs gave up on storytelling and lore-building.

 

 

Makes no sense. If devs focus on action & gameplay(usually with TPS/FPS RPGs) more than storytelling and lore-building that's on them not on game's being 3D. Original fallout 3 was gonna be 3D and that was the natural progression. PoE's having 2D backgrounds are just for nostalgia and/or money reasons, not because 3D limits such things.

 

It's called aesthetics and it's different from person to person although we can agree to some extent that some things look naturally ugly and some things look naturally beautiful. You can disagree all you want some people value more the paintings of Michelangelo of several centuries ago to the 3d art of the 21st and it's not due to nostalgia they just have been and still are beautiful. Furthermore photorealism techniques have been perfected through the years while real time rendering has still a long way to go.

 

How can you claim is just nostalgia by the way? Have you personally spoken to every one of the 500.000+ buyers of POE and 100% of them told you it's just nostalgia? It's just nostalgia in your own personal opinion and in my own personal opinion it just looks way better. Noted the word personal?

 

In the end beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Vaeliorin]

If you look at NWN2, the last (and only, as far as i'm aware of) game of this kind with rotatable camera that obsidian worked on, it should be immediately clear why they did the right decision with the perspective in POE.

 

If not, I dare you to find the single one person on earth that actually enjoyed the camera in NWN2.

I had zero problems with NWN2's camera and have never really understood the complaints. Personally I prefer a rotatable camera just because it prevents designers who think they're clever from hiding things behind walls or other objects (yes, this is a pet peeve of mine.)

 

I don't dislike isometric, and I would happily buy more isometric RPG's, but given my druthers, I prefer 3D (granted I also see no need for a game to be more graphically advanced than NWN2, which I still think looks quite nice.)

[DaveDanger]

I'm sure it mostly comes down to expense. There must have been big cost savings with all the text description instead of needing an army of animators to put together cinematics. Plus only having to show art from one angle means you don't have to do as much detail work.

 

In a world where Obs has a much larger budget, would people here want to play a more fancy cinematic game a la Mass Effect set in the Pillars world? They've gone so far down the isometric/text-heavy route that it would be a big departure from the original. Like the difference between DA:O and DA:I, but even more pronounced. I would guess that would be a controversial choice. Maybe there's room for both?

[Vaeliorin]

Why does a 3D game need to be cinematic? I'd personally like a text-heavy 3D game, as I feel text does a much better job of communicating information and feel as opposed to cinematics.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way saying POE2 should be anything other than isometric, but I'd really love a 3D RPG that was as text heavy as POE (or PS:T).

[JerekKruger]

I had zero problems with NWN2's camera and have never really understood the complaints. 

 

I started a screenshot based LP of it and found it very difficult to get screenshots of the dialogue that didn't involve shots of the backs of peoples heads.