SW: The Old Republic Part 4

[Humanoid]

I didn't even get to max level, so to say nothing on endgame content, I think the problem is an extension of the "it's like WoW" point. It's like an outdated iteration of WoW.

 

Obviously anything specific I say going to be an assumption since I know nothing of the internal development process, but it retains a good number of design elements lifted from designs that have been used and since discarded in WoW. TOR plays like WoW2010 (Lich King), or even WoW2008 (Burning Crusade), and as someone who played through those years, I don't really want to go back to those times.

 

Prime example is the skill/talent tree/system. TOR's system is essentially a clone of WoW's back in 2004 - full of minor, trivial and generally uninteresting 'choices'. +3% damage to one of your abilities? And making it a 5-point talent so you eventually end up, five levels later, with nothing more interesting than +15% damage to one ability? Yawn. WoW got rid of most of these types of talents back in 2010, and ripped up the system completely this year.

 

A more minor example would be the longer cooldowns on your best abilities. WoW has gotten rid of these as they weren't useful restrictions. If your tank doesn't have his/her prime defensive cooldown available when you're about to attempt the boss again, then most people will just wait it out, making it an inconvenience and not the balancing mechanic it was supposed to be. I all-too-frequently found myself idling in front of some elite enemies just waiting for cooldowns to come up before engaging them.

 

 

The other major issue is the encounter design versus the deliberate design decision to restrict moddability and general UI feedback. In a way I applaud the decision to do this: maintaining a dozen or more mods just to successfully raid in WoW is a right pain. But what TOR has done is simply rip away the ability to do it without considering its consequences on both gameplay balance and general usability - UI feedback as to your abilities is exceedingly poor. For example, some special abilities require fairly complex conditions and prerequisite actions before being able to use them effectively. Maybe it requires the target to be bleeding, and for you to have built up some 'combo points' by using a different ability beforehand. Well, unfortunately the 'bleeding' indicator on your target is a tiny non-descript icon hidden amongst a dozen other status icons above your target's health bar, and your combo points are likewise displayed as a tiny indicator above your health bar. (WoW's other extreme isn't necessarily the best approach, mind you, as in that, you can pre-program that precise combination to make it pop up a massive translucent image overlaid across the centre of your screen, accompanied by a custom musical cue, telling you whenever the best time to use that specific ability came along.) They're definitely guilty of trying to have in both ways here.

 

 

And finally, one more issue is that the opening level for a quarter of the classes is a damn swamp level.

[Raithe]

Hm, I have to say, once you actually learn the icons that represent some of those conditions, it's not that hard/awkward to recognise them pop up when they occur. The main problem I had was that when you initially get those abilities, you don't have anything telling you what those icons mean until they're occuring and you take time from the combat to hover the cursor over them and read what it says... and then it's like "oh, right, that means that then". Of course, while that's happening you might be in the middle of a mob and facing a couple of strong/elite enemies as well. Which makes it just a tad awkward...

 

The ability to move around/alter and change the UI was a good thing, it lets you minimise or reduce the size on certain parts that you didn't need occupying huge chunks of the screen, while increasing the size of other areas to make more noticable.

 

I haven't really charged into the endgame content to a huge extent. I've been playing the game since it was released, we're hitting the first anniversary and I still haven't done any operations. I tend to hit 50 with a class, then switch to a new one to see how it handles. WIth occasions of jumping back to my old toons for moments of crafting and running some of the dailies now and then. I know folks who spend days grinding the dailies repeatedly, but I just can't do that.

 

I don't consistently spend time in pvp, I'll tend to do batches of it now and then, but not in any regular manner. I guess in a lot of ways I do treat it more like a rather extended single-player game with a certain social aspect of some chat with friends and guild mates while they're solo'ing other content and providing the occasional helping hand or passing crafted goods/materials back and forth. Every now and again grouping up if we're on the same world to hit some heroics, or run a flashpoint as a guild...

 

But again, I've found with the pacing I'm half as likely to forget about a flashpoint until I'm over-level for it and then end up finding a half-hour here or there to solo flashpoints when I'm about 9+ levels beyond....

[Guest Slinky]

Would you guys pin that on the reason why SWTOR failed to hold onto players? The game felt very much like WOW, so I can't understand why people who like WOW wouldn't feel at home. Was it the lack of content maybe for the end game?

 

The way I see it:

 

- The lack of end game content was one, TOR had very little of it when it got released and WoW apparently had already lots.

 

- PVP lacked just as much. There was open world pvp area at Ilum, which was so badly implemented they took it out of the game completely.

 

- Bugs. Bugs everywhere. The little of end game content there were was unbelievably buggy. I'm not sure was there a hard mode boss that didn't bug at some point.

 

I was personally veeeery close to unsub after I got to level 50, mostly because of the buggy HM content. I heard WoW was even more buggy at release..

[Bos_hybrid]

I don't have trouble understanding why TOR failed, I have trouble understanding how any MMO becomes successful. I know a lot of people like them, I just can't understand why.

 

TOR was the first MMO I actually paid a subscription for, but after grinding a SW and BH to 50, I couldn't do it anymore. Without the grind I would of enjoyed TOR a lot more.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Bos_hybrid

[Guest Slinky]

I don't have trouble understanding why TOR failed, I have trouble understanding how any MMO becomes successful. I know a lot of people like them, I just can't understand why.

 

Can't speak for all MMORPG's since TOR is the only one I've played, but I really liked to play with friends. Talk bs via teamspeak, have a beer maybe and go do stuff and have a laugh. That's where the game shined.

 

I found the leveling part really painful, as a nessesery evil you had to endure before you can get to the fun stuff.

[Nepenthe]

Yeah, I played most of the endgame planets together with a friend I made on Hoth, and it was awesome. Going back to soloing after that (I think he moved on to guild wars2) was colossally boring - and most of my gaming friends just hammered the game to 50 and then moved on to the next big shiny thing while my main was still in his 20s.

[melkathi]

 

Can't speak for all MMORPG's since TOR is the only one I've played, but I really liked to play with friends. Talk bs via teamspeak, have a beer maybe and go do stuff and have a laugh. That's where the game shined.

 

 

Naked Esseles runs. Watching an ugly sith threaten a jedi in his underpants.

 

Or my smuggler wearing jedi robes instead of smuggler gear to trick the RNG into thinking I was a jedi, having decided that it is biased in favour of force users (who seem to affect loot and conversation roles with the force).

[anubite]

The appeal of a themepark MMO is the social aspect. The community. Guilds and friends. Doing silly stuff with faction warfare. When I played WOW, I would often infiltarte Ironforge as a member of the Horde and hide somewhere, taunting alliance to come after me. BUT, one of the mechanics that keeps people glued isthe "progression" the concept of becoming more powerful, which is turned a psychological treadmill and reinforced by social stimuli.

 

The appeal of a 'true' MMO (EVE or Ultima in my eyes are 'true' mmos) IS the social aspects and progression, but on a different level. In EVE, the game is controlling territory. This game comes to simulate real life to some extent - in EVE, there are plenty of stories of backstabbing and betrayal, infiltration and spying. Sabotage everywhere. People join corporations, get high up in the organization, then let hell break loose, gaining massive progression by causing mayhem. In a themepark MMO, the game is about the scripted boss encounter, in a sandbox MMO, the game is about the interaction of the virtual society upon player-controlled and hoarded resources. When I played EVE for a little while, I had a strong motivation to always attend fleet ops, even if in the end, they turned out boring or just about patrolling/keeping guard of a particular sector of our territory, it was because I was doing something as a team, following orders and coordinating actions with serious weight behind them, that made the game fun. I suppose some of that also carries into a themepark MMO, but to a more 'friendly' degree, I guess?

 

Why people play MMOs is pretty arcane. I don't think anyone can explain it too well yet, actually.

[Hassat Hunter]

Well, was playing F2P with zbyl (TSLRCM, M4-78EP). Then he got a subscription, and his XP doubled-to-tripled, so we started drifting far apart level wise.

So, got myself a box with 1 month subscription as well. Hope I won't regret it.

 

As singleplayer game it's absolutely horrible. Dual-player is a lot better. Especially since enemies actually die fast now, instead of each single damn combat scene dragging on and on if you're on your own...

 

It has so many flaws. But I guess I can pay 13 euro once for it. I don't really care much for endgame content, I rather want to play the storylines...

[Hurlshort]

I will say this, the whole companion thing is pretty awesome. It makes soloing a bit more tolerable than most of the older MMO's.

[Malcador]

Eh was a nice idea to give every class a pet, although did lead to that "I need that for my companion" loot drama at times.

[kirottu]

Humanoid makes some really good points.

 

I think base damage rotations are too long(use too many buttons), besides what Humanoid already mentioned: "UI feedback as to your abilities is exceedingly poor. For example, some special abilities require fairly complex conditions and prerequisite actions before being able to use them effectively." This makes basic gameplay getting worse when you gain new abilities and not better.

 

Too many heroic 4 man quests. They brake the pace of leveling, because it takes too long to form a group.

 

Bonus quests are extremely grindy and "samey". Just because they are bonus content doesn't mean they can suck.

 

Space combat is still probably my biggest disappointment. X-wing and Tie Fighter are two of my favourite games and then we got this on-rails-shooter with barrel roll.

Edited December 13, 2012 by kirottu

[Calax]

One thing I'd like to point out is that each debuff does NOT have a unique icon. So it becomes crazy if you're trying to do perfect rotations without putting your DoT's to often because you can't tell if it's your dot or some other guys debuff.

[Humanoid]

See, not having grouped in any serious way, I already had too much trouble keeping up with them, so yeah, just illustrates the problem further. And at the risk of droning on too much about WoW (a game I haven't played in some time now), a simple mod like the popular NeedToKnow surely couldn't be seen to be damaging gameplay in any reasonable way. All something like this does is change the display of various statuses from a tiny square with a hard-to-see radial grey overlay to a simple horizontal bar that you can place where it's most comfortable to view. In an attempt to stamp out the more extreme edge cases (like the infamous AVR, which allowed you to draw simple geometric objects directly onto the gameworld and broadcast it to your group) that the WoW API allowed for (or at least used to), they've wiped out the simple quality-of-life mods like the former.

 

 

Good point on the prevalence of group quests too - fortunately they're strictly optional (the nature of repeatable quests, of which they all are), although the point is not communicated to the player all that well. The story development in them tends to be tangential to whatever you're currently doing, and is usually pretty trivial, so you don't miss out on much in that regard, but a side-effect tends to be that skipping them will end up in you doing the "bonus" lines later on to catch up.

[melkathi]

Regarding the XP.

As a completionist, doing every Heroic mission on Dromund Kaas or Coruscant, I'd get to Balmora/Taris at level 21 as a subscriber. Right now, as a fr00b, I am level 16 on Dromund Kaas and predict having reached 17 by the time I am done with the planet but expect 18 to require an effort of repeating heroics several times.

[Spider]

All quests in the game are ceompletely optional. You don't even have to run your class quest if you don't want to, but you'lll kinda gimp yourself due to not getting any companions. But you could level all the way to 50 from doing nothing but pvp (if that's your fancy).

 

I've found that if you only do planetary quests and skip out on all the group content, you tend to be somewhat underleveled. But if you do heroics, pvp or flashpoints, it can just as easily turn out that you're overleveling planets instead. I've skipped entire planets (apart from class quest) a couple of times, especially on characters that do a decent amount of pvp when leveling.

 

And I rarely need to do bonus series quests at all.

 

So my point is, do the stuff you find fun. XP will usually sort itself out. I personally think the group content is the most fun you can have in the game (flashpoints especially, but heroics as well), so I tend to try and do that.

[Raithe]

I have to admit, it does kind of throw me the couple of times I've seen someone running around at 35+ level of a character with no advanced class. Kind of makes me wonder if they're just going for some form of basic challenge or what.

[melkathi]

All quests in the game are ceompletely optional. You don't even have to run your class quest if you don't want to, but you'lll kinda gimp yourself due to not getting any companions. But you could level all the way to 50 from doing nothing but pvp (if that's your fancy).

 

I've found that if you only do planetary quests and skip out on all the group content, you tend to be somewhat underleveled. But if you do heroics, pvp or flashpoints, it can just as easily turn out that you're overleveling planets instead. I've skipped entire planets (apart from class quest) a couple of times, especially on characters that do a decent amount of pvp when leveling.

 

And I rarely need to do bonus series quests at all.

 

So my point is, do the stuff you find fun. XP will usually sort itself out. I personally think the group content is the most fun you can have in the game (flashpoints especially, but heroics as well), so I tend to try and do that.

 

Yeah, as a subscriber you can easily outlevel anything. Not sure how this will sit with retuning players though who try free and know how rapidly they are falling behind the leveling curve.

Then again, they do have to make money somehow.

[Nepenthe]

What's the change, exactly? Subscribers level faster than before or non-subs level slower? I actually had some problems hitting recommended level with my imperial agent, mostly because I found the maturity level of imperial players on my server seriously lacking and thus only did the solo content. Which is why I got fed up when I got to belsavis.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Raithe]

I think it's a combination of effects. Subscribers now level just a touch faster. Or at least, I've noticed I now get 8 xp where I used to get 7xp, or 64 xp where I used to get 50xp...

And from what I understand the non-subs get slightly less.

 

Hm, Okay Nep, I have to wonder at that, I mean, I pretty much solo through everything, I don't do that many heroics, I only occasionally have short pvp splurges, and I only do bonus series about half the time..maybe a little more, but I'm usually slightly above the level curve for a planet... Although I'll admit, for some reason that seems easier to do with later toon's rather then my first couple..

[Hurlshort]

There are also a lot of options to increase your xp gains now, with all the legacy stuff. Do f2p people get rest xp?

[Nepenthe]

I think it's a combination of effects. Subscribers now level just a touch faster. Or at least, I've noticed I now get 8 xp where I used to get 7xp, or 64 xp where I used to get 50xp...

And from what I understand the non-subs get slightly less.

 

Hm, Okay Nep, I have to wonder at that, I mean, I pretty much solo through everything, I don't do that many heroics, I only occasionally have short pvp splurges, and I only do bonus series about half the time..maybe a little more, but I'm usually slightly above the level curve for a planet... Although I'll admit, for some reason that seems easier to do with later toon's rather then my first couple..

Dunno, I was a bit surprised by it myself. MIght have skipped a large chunk of optionals, because I was a bit ahead of the curve right until the last planet (hmm, taris?) when I just didn't get enough experience...

[Raithe]

I just ran my Consular through Taris, and apart from a short play of pvp just before I hit 20, and having hm, the first 3 ranks of "improved story xp" from my legacy (so only class specific mission, not general xp) boost, but I ran through all the world and class stuff and without doing any of the heroics or the bonus series, I'm currently halfway through 23...

[Calax]

http://www.blisteredthumbs.net/2012/11/mmo-grinder-ep33/

Gives a run down of the F2P nonsense.

[Rosbjerg]

There are also a lot of options to increase your xp gains now, with all the legacy stuff. Do f2p people get rest xp?

 

I do, but apperantly only because I preordered. If you buy anything in the cartel you also get it.