Shadowrun Returns

[samm]

This was a horrible move from their side  Steam is the opposite of "DRM free". The true DRM free copy is only their second choice, and won't be persued further for future enhancements of the games or user generated content. DLCs are the devil. Forcing people to use Steam for DLC and user generated content is dishonest to say the least.

I paid for the game so I'll play it, but that was the last money I'll ever throw at that big-publisher-like-minded company. Thank you for nothing, scheming hair breads.

Edited April 10, 2013 by samm

[Gfted1]

I can understand and respect you guys position on DRM but tbh this looks like people going out of their way to get upset. They are delivering on their promise to supply a DRM free version of SR and Berlin, what you guys paid for already, but now people are upset about what may happen in the future to as yet unannounced future DLC?

 

With the PS4 and XBOX720 going always online (DRM) and most PC games being supplied via a method of DRM, I can see a future of all DRM all the time. What then, quit gaming all together except for a few select games per year? At what point are you cutting off your nose to spite your face?

[melkathi]

I can understand and respect you guys position on DRM but tbh this looks like people going out of their way to get upset. They are delivering on their promise to supply a DRM free version of SR and Berlin, what you guys paid for already, but now people are upset about what may happen in the future to as yet unannounced future DLC?

 

With the PS4 and XBOX720 going always online (DRM) and most PC games being supplied via a method of DRM, I can see a future of all DRM all the time. What then, quit gaming all together except for a few select games per year? At what point are you cutting off your nose to spite your face?

 

It's not a what may happen thing. It's the "We know we promised you this stuff DRM free, ok you'll get it. But anything after that, patches and the planned DLC will be Steam only."

 

And actually, believe it or not, there are hobbies outside gaming Draconian DRM on everything that would make me want to not game? Awesome, I'd get less distracted from drawing and writing

[Humanoid]

There's a good deal of damage done regardless of the resolution, because what they've done is paint themselves as lawyers, staying within the letter of the law but all to happy to trample over the spirit of it. Fully within their rights to do so, but no one likes lawyers.

 

The feeling I get is similar to, say, misuse of donations by a charity who, while still pursuing the goal of helping their particular cause, give the cushy contract to a buddy of the suits running it to carry out the work. I stress it's not an analogy, but just the gut feeling I get from the move.

 

I, and I suspect a good many others, would have thrown in a bit extra as a pushback against the notion that Steam be the end-all ultimate utopia of video game platforms, but instead we've ended up achieving the opposite. Steam is certainly a tool of convenience, and I'm totally fine with that, hence my assertion that having mods require manual installation is fine, but when actual capabilities are different then something starts to smell, especially as it's clear it's not a technical limitation but a business-imposed one. While I'm certainly not going to do anything drastic like some of the reactions have threatened (e.g. chargebacks), it does mean I'll stay at the lower tiers for any of their future offerings.

[melkathi]

no one likes lawyers.

 

Actually I knew this really pretty lawyer once. Tried to go out with her. She didn't want to go out with me

But yeah, I agree with you.

[Majek]

I don't care. waiting for the FAQ now.

[Hurlshort]

This was a horrible move from their side  Steam is the opposite of "DRM free". The true DRM free copy is only their second choice, and won't be persued further for future enhancements of the games or user generated content. DLCs are the devil. Forcing people to use Steam for DLC and user generated content is dishonest to say the least.

I paid for the game so I'll play it, but that was the last money I'll ever throw at that big-publisher-like-minded company. Thank you for nothing, scheming hair breads.

 

Are you really bashing DLC, and then bashing them for only making the DLC that you just bashed available on Steam?  

 

 

People seem to not understand how difficult it is to distribute content.  Steam is a fantastic option for a developer.  It isn't some DRM conspiracy.

[samm]

Yes, I am bashing DLC per se *and* the distribution of DLC. DLC just stands for "constant trickling in of money by constant minor expansions", which an attitude and a way of software, esp. game, development that I despise. Either do expansions properly or else it's a patch for a missing feature. Now they've apparently decided to go with the DLC-flow, I also strongly object to their distribution system of that. There is no contradiction in that, even though I understand why you would point it out  

 

And it's not just DLC (which I'm not interested in buying) but also user generated content (which I am interested in) that is to be distributed by Steam only. There's no logical reason for that, unless they've designed their game with Steam Workshop already as a premise, so that it's impossible to for example just put user generated content in folder X to have it imported by the game, or execute "myDLC.exe" to install a DLC.

 

I know the difficulties of distributing software, I'm in software business. Granted, mainly as a programmer in a small office, but at times linked to sales as well. Steam is mostly a good DRM system if you're a developer, you can track your users effortlessly. It's no conspiracy, it's dishonesty about the spirit they spread while pitching their game on Kickstarter.

Edited April 10, 2013 by samm

[melkathi]

 

 

 

People seem to not understand how difficult it is to distribute content.  Steam is a fantastic option for a developer.  It isn't some DRM conspiracy.

 

To a large part the wording of the update was quite poor though.

They did not say that for reasons XYZ they are going with Steam exclusively.

They said they looked into things and then decided that it will be awesome to go with Steam the same way other awesome games have done and that Steam is awesome. They tried giving it a rather cheap marketing spin. In that they went completly against the transparency a lot of people expect from kickstarter projects.

In stark contrast I'd place the Haunts kickstarter which actually failed to create the final product. The updates outlined the problems and how that happened and the majority of backers were very supportive.

 

Maybe if HBS had tried less to play the iconic used car salesman and instead explained part of the process of how such a decission was reached, then more people would be more understanding.

I can't promise I would be. I do know though that I did not ask for a refund when Rick offered them for Haunts; instead I tried to be as supportive as one can through the kickstarter comment section. So I do know that a bit of openess works wonders with me at least.

[alanschu]

My assumption is that part of the advantage that Haunts has is that it's also very small scale (I think if Obsidian or inXile got into that situation, you'd have a lot of sympathy but you'd also have a lot more rage grandstanding).  Still, I do agree that the support from the community was refreshing.

 

 

I agree that HBS could have been more open about the whole process.  Though at the same time I think there's still some level of adjustment to the process, so I don't know if I would say there was malicious intent to deceive, but rather the joys of adjusting to the new funding model.

[duskwind]

People seem to not understand how difficult it is to distribute content.

Bittorrent?

[melkathi]

My assumption is that part of the advantage that Haunts has is that it's also very small scale (I think if Obsidian or inXile got into that situation, you'd have a lot of sympathy but you'd also have a lot more rage grandstanding).  Still, I do agree that the support from the community was refreshing.

 

 

I agree that HBS could have been more open about the whole process.  Though at the same time I think there's still some level of adjustment to the process, so I don't know if I would say there was malicious intent to deceive, but rather the joys of adjusting to the new funding model.

 

True, for Haunts, scale was very likely something that played a major part.

I wouldn't go as far as using terms as "malicious" and hope I didn't come across that way But I do think that HBS knew they were announcing something not everyone would be happy about but chose to go the "exciting news!" route regardless.

But we'll seee what they'll have to say Friday.

[Zoraptor]

Are you really bashing DLC, and then bashing them for only making the DLC that you just bashed available on Steam?

Well yeah, completely unreasonable that having dlc, MP, mods and patches patches patches stuck behind a drm wall for something advertised from the start as 'drm free' upsets people. They're so unreasonable what with expecting not to receive a gimped, potentially permanently broken and always second string version having contributed in some cases large amounts.

 

 

People seem to not understand how difficult it is to distribute content.  Steam is a fantastic option for a developer.  It isn't some DRM conspiracy.

...

 

And yet, freeware- freeware- somehow manages to distribute updates without Uncle Gabe leaning over their shoulder, and mods have been distributed without Steam doing a Clippy impersonation for, well, as long as they've been around. I'm fairly sure Thief didn't use steam in 1998, for example. It's a complete bullasterisk justification that doesn't stand so much a smidgeon of critical examination.

 

Ye gods I've never been so glad* I didn't contribute a cent to these sophist shylocks.

 

*slight exaggeration, maybe

[alanschu]

I haven't really followed.

 

Will this block patches as well?

[ShadySands]

How will I download the game when it’s released? 

After a lot of prototyping and research, we decided that our best delivery option for OSX/Windows/Linux is to go the route that great games (like Skyrim!) have taken and embrace Steam and the Steam Workshop. Steam allows us to provide up-to-date downloads and patching along with a vibrant ecosystem for developing community-created content and file sharing. 

So, we're happy to announce that all Backers will receive a Steam Key for the game and will be able to contribute and browse community-created content using Steam Workshop. 

We realize that for some of you, releasing on Steam isn’t your first choice but there are a lot of really great things we get from this decision that allow us to focus on the game rather than on making things like backend servers to deploy and manage shared content. From the start, we’ve had to make practical decisions like this one to ensure we get the most out of the support you’ve given us. We consider this to be the best option for everyone. 

Now, that may prompt the question, “What about DRM-free?” To honor our original promise of a DRM-free version of the game, the Harebrained Account Website will also contain a downloadable version of Shadowrun Returns that does not include Steam integration. While this version will include the Seattle story (and Berlin, via a one-time update), without Steam integration, it will be unable to browse and play community-created stories from within the game. Any future DLC will only be available through Steam. 

 

Perhaps, It's not really clear aside from all future DLC will Steam only. We'll find out on Friday when they clarify the details and/or stay/change the course

Edited April 10, 2013 by ShadySands

[Mamoulian War]

I can understand and respect you guys position on DRM but tbh this looks like people going out of their way to get upset. They are delivering on their promise to supply a DRM free version of SR and Berlin, what you guys paid for already, but now people are upset about what may happen in the future to as yet unannounced future DLC?

 

With the PS4 and XBOX720 going always online (DRM) and most PC games being supplied via a method of DRM, I can see a future of all DRM all the time. What then, quit gaming all together except for a few select games per year? At what point are you cutting off your nose to spite your face?

 

For that reason, me and most of my friends started to play last two years tabletop games... No DRM, awesome social content and never ever server maintenance...

 

Besides, circumventing DRM is legal here, if you have proof of your purchase...

Edited April 10, 2013 by Mamoulian War

[melkathi]

I haven't really followed.

 

Will this block patches as well?

 

We will know on Frday I guess. but the wording that the Berlin DLC will be a one-time-update to the DRM free-version is a bit strange. Because as much as some people want to say that "All it means is that you will only need to install the Berlin DLC once to run it." I just can't take that explanation seriously So the question is why say that?

*shrug*

[alanschu]

I'm curious if there's some significant advantage to utilizing Steam as the delivery system (I have no visibility on this), in terms of saving on man hours and so forth. 

 

 

We will know on Frday I guess. but the wording that the Berlin DLC will be a one-time-update to the DRM free-version is a bit strange. Because as much as some people want to say that "All it means is that you will only need to install the Berlin DLC once to run it."

 

It does seem strange that there is evidently one DLC that can be done not through Steam.  Curious what the difference is.

[ShadySands]

The Berlin DLC was promised in the Kickstarter and was originally supposed to ship as the second city of the main game which is why it is separate from the Steam requirement

 

EDIT: It was the $1,000,000 stretch goal

Edited April 10, 2013 by ShadySands

[Humanoid]

The difference is that it's the one promised during the KS campaign, indeed as a stretch goal, so they're bound to do it for all copies of the game. So the technical ability is there, leading to the assumption that the restriction of future, paid DLC is a commercial one.\\EDIT: beaten!

Edited April 10, 2013 by Humanoid

[Gfted1]

Besides, circumventing DRM is legal here, if you have proof of your purchase...

If its legal for you to remove/circumvent DRM in your country, why do you still refuse to buy games that have DRM?

[Mamoulian War]

Why to make an extra hassle with browsing suspicious websites, when there are other developers willing to sell you DRM free option available out of the box?

 

I am just rewarding with my purchases companies who offer me hassle-less entertainment...

 

Free market at work

[alanschu]

The difference is that it's the one promised during the KS campaign, indeed as a stretch goal, so they're bound to do it for all copies of the game. So the technical ability is there, leading to the assumption that the restriction of future, paid DLC is a commercial one.\\EDIT: beaten!

 

This does give the inclination that the decision is primarily a commercial one.  Having said that, I am still curious what the difference is.  Yes it's the one promised, which obviously provides some impetus for making sure that they deliver it.  If they have the technical ability to do so, then there appears to be more to it.  That's the difference that I am curious about.

[AwesomeOcelot]

I interpreted the statement as no DLC unless with Steam. Anything more is speculation until further information. My expectations for this game was pretty low when I backed it at $15, because it is a tablet game from a small team. I do hope they change their mind about DLC though, perhaps with bundles from GOG or something.

[babaganoosh13]

The problem is, tying it in and integrating it so much with Steamworks, can limit what they can do with it outside of it, with GOG ect...

 

Meanwhile, offline Steam just lost my login information after 2 weeks and change, causing me to have to bring my computer in a lot earlier than I was expecting. Oh well, at least DeathQuaker directed me as to how I can fix that.

 

I wasn't even supposed to be here today!

 

EDIT: But that PE update was pretty sweet.

Edited April 10, 2013 by babaganoosh13