Mass Effect 3

[Hurlshort]

 

ME has always been that space opera format. And that allows a certain element of silliness to be enjoyed as part and parcel of the genre. It isn't dark, gritty, hard sci-fi that is meant to be taken completely seriously. Just watch Mordin's take on Gillbert & Sullivan to get that..

 

Exactly, and I eat this stuff up. For some reason this reminds me of a conversation about plot holes in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Just relax and enjoy Sarah Michelle-Geller beat up on the undead.

[Gorgon]

It's a bit like ragging on DA2 and forgetting that it was meant to be stupid and banal from the inception.

[Chr1s]

What bothers me with ME series in general is that they portray characters as either super or super dumb, for example some squadmates are meant to be annoying it seems same with Cerberus and council etc and others are your friends and like most trusted ever but my point is that would like to see many more characters of importance with some middleground not necessarly supportive nor antagonist this is something i think they have failed with a bit not everyone have to be extreme one way or another and ME 3 do not seem better in that regard.

[Oblarg]

Dude, you've been too tired to list them since the game came out, in spite of repeatedly referring to them. I think you should have your blood sugar levels checked.

 

 

Do tell, when in previous threads, before now, have I ever claimed I was too tired to list plot holes? Oh, that's right, you're just strawmanning. Oh well, I'll humor you:

 

1. Shepard working for TIM: There's simply no way this makes sense, unless all the characters are braindead. Shepard doesn't so much as blink when he's asked to enter the service of a guy who has turned entire human colonies into husks and who was possibly responsible for a very traumatic event in Shepard's past. The main reason other Shepard's previous allies from ME1 refuse to work with him is that he's now working for Cerberus - not once is Shepard given the option to say "**** you, I'm leaving," which is what any sane person would do. Furthermore, even with in the frame of working for Cerberus, you're not even given the option of telling the systems alliance that the Collectors are behind the attacks, thus eliminating Shepard and Cerberus from suspicion and gaining allies. No, you're forced to work with a terrorist organization who clearly have ulterior motives, at the expense of Shepard's credibility, culminating in the absolutely atrociously written encounter with Kaiden/Ashley on Horizon.

 

2. Spending the entire game recruiting a "team": Why the **** would you do this? This forms the backbone of the plot, but given the premise it's just about the most useless, stupid way you could go about solving your problems. You know that your eventual goal will be going through the Omega 4 relay, but how the hell is a super team of soldiers supposed to help you with that? You know absolutely nothing about the nature of the Collector homeworld or what defenses it has, nor do you take any steps to find out. Through pure serendipity it just so happens that they only have one ship and some floating eyeballs to defend their base, and you crash land in the perfect manner to allow all of your squadmates to take a part in the resulting mission. It's contrived to the point of absurdity. There were so many ways this could be fixed, too - hell, even some simple exposition to tell you that you have *some* information about the Collectors that lets you know an assault team is going to be important in the final confrontation would be a vast improvement. As it is, Shepard should have been scrapping together a ****ing armada, not a group of super-soldiers with personal problems. Which brings me to...

 

3. The loyalty system: I've already mentioned this, but I'll go over it in full - it's not really a plot hole so much as an example of what, in general, is wrong with the game. Why, pray tell, does whether or not I've sorted out my teammates' personal issues change whether or not they get hit with falling debris in the final battle? I have no problem with the plot of the game taking a back seat to character exposition, so long as it's all tied together in a convincing manner. This is not. This feels like a last-minute write-in when they realized that the plot of the game had nothing to do with the majority of the missions. This doesn't make me feel like I've accomplished anything by ensuring the resolve of my crew. This simply makes me feel as if I've finished the game's arbitrary checklist of Things You Must Do to Not Have a ****ty Ending.

 

4. The Derelict Reaper: There are more things wrong with this than I care to count, but I'll stick to the obvious ones. Firstly, why the **** would you rush in there, knowing the research team lost contact, without any other attempts at gathering information? Yes, I realize Shepard is supposed to be Mr. Suicide Mission, but this isn't just a suicide mission, it's boneheaded stupidity. Furthermore, a derelict reaper sitting in a known spot seems like a great opportunity to convince the braindead council that you're not talking out of your ass - is there any convincing reason you, rather than telling them about it and using it to gain the support of the greater galactic community, choose to run in there, get the IFF device, destroy the reaper in the process, and then immediately hook it up to your ship?

 

5. The Collector Plan: Simply, the collectors, despite all the hype and the constant reminders of just how AMAZINGLY DANGEROUS they're supposed to be, are a non-threat. They somehow plan to abduct the entirety of humanity (Shepard himself mentions that they'd have to go to Earth to fill their ship), yet they don't bother to have more than one cruiser? A cruiser which, at that, is ultimately destroyed by a frigate which is designed for stealth rather than combat (the Normandy isn't some sort of super-ship, it's a reconaissance vessel)? Sure, picking undefended fringe colonies might be easy, but there's no way they'd ever succeed in getting much further than that. Of course, this could have been fixed by simply giving them more, and more imposing, ships and weapons, but they were unable to do this because they needed to keep the final battle contrived as **** so that they could weakly justify the fact that you've spent the entire game finding soldiers to fill your ship rather than taking any reasonable course of action. Furthermore, they were building a reaper - fine, so what? What good would a reaper do? Attack the Citadel again, except this time without the benefit of a Geth fleet (well, they could have that single Collector cruiser, that'd sure help!) and hope that they do better than last time? Pretty shoddy plan, there. And even then, it couldn't possibly work - Sovereign's attack relied on Saren being able to use the conduit to gain access to Citadel control - this is why you spend *all* of ME1 searching for the conduit. Without that, a new Human reaper couldn't do anything to open the Citadel relay and bring the rest of the reapers through. The entire thing reeks of half-developed ideas forced together without any real thought as to how to make them work. In actuality, that describes most of the game pretty well.

[greylord]

Dude, you've been too tired to list them since the game came out, in spite of repeatedly referring to them. I think you should have your blood sugar levels checked.

 

 

Do tell, when in previous threads, before now, have I ever claimed I was too tired to list plot holes? Oh, that's right, you're just strawmanning. Oh well, I'll humor you:

 

1. Shepard working for TIM: There's simply no way this makes sense, unless all the characters are braindead. Shepard doesn't so much as blink when he's asked to enter the service of a guy who has turned entire human colonies into husks and who was possibly responsible for a very traumatic event in Shepard's past. The main reason other Shepard's previous allies from ME1 refuse to work with him is that he's now working for Cerberus - not once is Shepard given the option to say "**** you, I'm leaving," which is what any sane person would do. Furthermore, even with in the frame of working for Cerberus, you're not even given the option of telling the systems alliance that the Collectors are behind the attacks, thus eliminating Shepard and Cerberus from suspicion and gaining allies. No, you're forced to work with a terrorist organization who clearly have ulterior motives, at the expense of Shepard's credibility, culminating in the absolutely atrociously written encounter with Kaiden/Ashley on Horizon.

 

2. Spending the entire game recruiting a "team": Why the **** would you do this? This forms the backbone of the plot, but given the premise it's just about the most useless, stupid way you could go about solving your problems. You know that your eventual goal will be going through the Omega 4 relay, but how the hell is a super team of soldiers supposed to help you with that? You know absolutely nothing about the nature of the Collector homeworld or what defenses it has, nor do you take any steps to find out. Through pure serendipity it just so happens that they only have one ship and some floating eyeballs to defend their base, and you crash land in the perfect manner to allow all of your squadmates to take a part in the resulting mission. It's contrived to the point of absurdity. There were so many ways this could be fixed, too - hell, even some simple exposition to tell you that you have *some* information about the Collectors that lets you know an assault team is going to be important in the final confrontation would be a vast improvement. As it is, Shepard should have been scrapping together a ****ing armada, not a group of super-soldiers with personal problems. Which brings me to...

 

3. The loyalty system: I've already mentioned this, but I'll go over it in full - it's not really a plot hole so much as an example of what, in general, is wrong with the game. Why, pray tell, does whether or not I've sorted out my teammates' personal issues change whether or not they get hit with falling debris in the final battle? I have no problem with the plot of the game taking a back seat to character exposition, so long as it's all tied together in a convincing manner. This is not. This feels like a last-minute write-in when they realized that the plot of the game had nothing to do with the majority of the missions. This doesn't make me feel like I've accomplished anything by ensuring the resolve of my crew. This simply makes me feel as if I've finished the game's arbitrary checklist of Things You Must Do to Not Have a ****ty Ending.

 

4. The Derelict Reaper: There are more things wrong with this than I care to count, but I'll stick to the obvious ones. Firstly, why the **** would you rush in there, knowing the research team lost contact, without any other attempts at gathering information? Yes, I realize Shepard is supposed to be Mr. Suicide Mission, but this isn't just a suicide mission, it's boneheaded stupidity. Furthermore, a derelict reaper sitting in a known spot seems like a great opportunity to convince the braindead council that you're not talking out of your ass - is there any convincing reason you, rather than telling them about it and using it to gain the support of the greater galactic community, choose to run in there, get the IFF device, destroy the reaper in the process, and then immediately hook it up to your ship?

 

5. The Collector Plan: Simply, the collectors, despite all the hype and the constant reminders of just how AMAZINGLY DANGEROUS they're supposed to be, are a non-threat. They somehow plan to abduct the entirety of humanity (Shepard himself mentions that they'd have to go to Earth to fill their ship), yet they don't bother to have more than one cruiser? A cruiser which, at that, is ultimately destroyed by a frigate which is designed for stealth rather than combat (the Normandy isn't some sort of super-ship, it's a reconaissance vessel)? Sure, picking undefended fringe colonies might be easy, but there's no way they'd ever succeed in getting much further than that. Of course, this could have been fixed by simply giving them more, and more imposing, ships and weapons, but they were unable to do this because they needed to keep the final battle contrived as **** so that they could weakly justify the fact that you've spent the entire game finding soldiers to fill your ship rather than taking any reasonable course of action. Furthermore, they were building a reaper - fine, so what? What good would a reaper do? Attack the Citadel again, except this time without the benefit of a Geth fleet (well, they could have that single Collector cruiser, that'd sure help!) and hope that they do better than last time? Pretty shoddy plan, there. And even then, it couldn't possibly work - Sovereign's attack relied on Saren being able to use the conduit to gain access to Citadel control - this is why you spend *all* of ME1 searching for the conduit. Without that, a new Human reaper couldn't do anything to open the Citadel relay and bring the rest of the reapers through. The entire thing reeks of half-developed ideas forced together without any real thought as to how to make them work. In actuality, that describes most of the game pretty well.

 

This will be fun...

 

1. Who just ressurrected Shepard...OH! That's right...TIM. If TIM didn't implant some sort of suggestion into Shepard to aid in the first place, beyond the fact that Shep was dead and owes a tremendous debt, since NO ONE ELSE raised Shep...sure...you got a point. I'd say seeing not only has TIM raised Shep and pointedly stated what his intention was, as well as Shep having the entire idea to save humanity as his background, hence it's at least in Sheps interest to investigate what TIM is stating...it makes sense. Now, if you say ME1 made absolutely NO sense and the plot hole was that Shep shouldn't care at all about the galaxy, humanity, or anything else...then of course this is a plot hole, since Shep could just walk away from everything and anything and not give a dang. He had a bigger chance to do this in the first one since even the council was against him much of the time, much less the rest of the galaxy. Of course then you wouldn't have a game in the first place.

 

2. The Illusive man didn't know exactly who would be best or could help...he was hoping Shep would be successful. He knew Shep could beat impossible odds and that's what TIM was betting on. He had some ideas of some pretty good recruits for a team, and that's who he suggested, if you wanted to pick them up...but otherwise it was you who was recruiting to go on this suicide mission. Sure, it's a suicide mission but going in alone is more stupid then taking a team. You always get a team, the fact that you can get the team is your choice. You can make it as large as you want...but you didn't have to get all of them if you didn't want. Course, if I were Shep and could have gotten an army, I'd have taken an entire freaking fleet.

 

3. It's all about how focused and concentrated on the mission you are. If poor old Tali is thinking about what's happened to her father and why she's going to be exiled or punished by the fleet, she sure isn't thinking as strongly on the mission. For example, kill your mother and see if you are able to think as focused or well on work the next day.

 

Of course maybe you are a cold callous person who doesn't care about their mother, in which case I can understand you not being able to comprehend such things...but if you are a normal human being then you probably can understand how some giant family issue can keep you from being as focused on the task at hand then you otherwise would be.

 

What the coincidence is, is that all of your team mates seem to have these family/personal crisis right before your mission.

 

4. Who else is going to get information? You're on a race to beat others to the info already...what are you going to do...go ahead and ask the Turians to get the information for you. Yeah...that's going to work out great! NOT! He goes in because that's how he's going to get any information anyways...since the only person that really has given him ANYTHING recently actually IS TIM (refer to #1) everyone else either is glad he's dead, ignores that he's alive, or has granted him a license to do something but no other help (such as the council in certain situations...but they still will disavow you if your actions come to light...great help they are!).

 

5. Apparantly they don't need every human out there...just a lot of them...and seeing that the ONLY response thus far has been TIM and you...I'd say apparantly they're being extremely effective at it. As for your frigate...go in without the upgrades...and you have a really beat up team maybe toast...

 

They already did in your first frigate. Plus you are underestimating Joker's piloting skills...first time he just was unprepared and surprised...

 

 

And didn't they have more than one ship...at least two? Or something? Even with one though...seems like they had it pretty much under control...seeing as no one is really after them yet anyways....until Shep shows up.

[Nepenthe]

Do tell, when in previous threads, before now, have I ever claimed I was too tired to list plot holes? Oh, that's right, you're just strawmanning. Oh well, I'll humor you:

I was assuming it was you, but I admit I have a hard time keeping you guys apart sometimes since your opinions are so similar down to the ways they are worded.

 

I CBA to go through all the me2 threads to find any of the last times this was brought up, but if it's a case of mistaken identity, I apologise.

 

p.s. I think you mixed up two fallacious argumentation techniques, strawmanning and ad-hominem.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Raithe]

Point of fact, you can wander off to the Citadel and they pretty much refuse to listen to you. Even Anderson has arranged for Ashley to be off at some colony to find out what's happening and doesn't admit that to you because of the rumours that Shep is working with Cerberus.

 

So on the one hand you have all of these old allies who refuse to listen to you, or can't actually give you any help.. or there's working with TIM to find out what's happening, and that both gives you resources to protect humanity and allows you to keep an eye on TIM yourself...

[Hurlshort]

At first I thought it was pretty bizarre to get a ship and missions from Cerberus, but then I spent the entire game undermining The Illusive Man's authority and not trusting them in anything I did. I had multiple conversations with folks about how I didn't trust TIM and was just using their ship because it was my only option.

 

You might be overthinking things, Oblarg.

[Malcador]

With the unresolved trial waiting for her back at home, she decides that it's better to go out in the line of duty to ensure decent life insurance benefits for her family?

 

Nah. Maybe they just work harder because you helped them out with their drama issues, that could work.

[Hurlshort]

With the unresolved trial waiting for her back at home, she decides that it's better to go out in the line of duty to ensure decent life insurance benefits for her family?

 

Nah. Maybe they just work harder because you helped them out with their drama issues, that could work.

 

You clearly don't watch enough movies about crooked cops.

[HoonDing]

With the unresolved trial waiting for her back at home, she decides that it's better to go out in the line of duty to ensure decent life insurance benefits for her family?

 

Nah. Maybe they just work harder because you helped them out with their drama issues, that could work.

Or maybe they're just not much of an elite team if they let their own petty concerns get in the way of the mission. The least you'd expect is professionalism.The Teen Titans show more maturity than any Mass Effect crew member.

 

Edited February 5, 2012 by virumor

[Malcador]

Probably not. Still though, it would have been more fun to have them die off with some randomness to it - so even if they're loyal they just have a good chance of not buying it. Maybe they'll do something similar for ME3.

[GhostofAnakin]

The only thing that really bothered me about ME2 was that giant Terminator robot. Any so-called plot holes or inconsistencies, or any "forced" actions in ME2 were minor. So as long as ME3 doesn't have something as equal dumb looking, I won't complain.

[Oblarg]

At first I thought it was pretty bizarre to get a ship and missions from Cerberus, but then I spent the entire game undermining The Illusive Man's authority and not trusting them in anything I did. I had multiple conversations with folks about how I didn't trust TIM and was just using their ship because it was my only option.

 

You might be overthinking things, Oblarg.

 

Overthinking things? If this is past the depth of thought that should go into writing an RPG plot, then why bother hiring writers at all? If the Big Bad of your game have a plan which, after a cursory glance, obviously cannot work, then your game has a big problem. They could at the very least lampshade the problems if they're too incompetent to write something that doesn't have them. This is a game which advertises itself based on the strength of its narrative. It's pretty shameful that the narrative doesn't stand up to even slight scrutiny. I find it very hard to stay immersed in a game in which pretty much every aspect of the plot invokes Contrived Plot-Mandated Coincidences to not fall apart.

 

 

1. Who just ressurrected Shepard...OH! That's right...TIM. If TIM didn't implant some sort of suggestion into Shepard to aid in the first place, beyond the fact that Shep was dead and owes a tremendous debt, since NO ONE ELSE raised Shep...sure...you got a point. I'd say seeing not only has TIM raised Shep and pointedly stated what his intention was, as well as Shep having the entire idea to save humanity as his background, hence it's at least in Sheps interest to investigate what TIM is stating...it makes sense. Now, if you say ME1 made absolutely NO sense and the plot hole was that Shep shouldn't care at all about the galaxy, humanity, or anything else...then of course this is a plot hole, since Shep could just walk away from everything and anything and not give a dang. He had a bigger chance to do this in the first one since even the council was against him much of the time, much less the rest of the galaxy. Of course then you wouldn't have a game in the first place.

 

TIM explicitly states that he has done nothing other than bring Shepard back exactly as he was. No loyalty programming, no failsafe, nothing. There is no physical limitation stopping you from saying "**** you, I'm leaving," and, in fact, given how awful Cerberus is (especially in the first game, what with setting Thresher Maws on alliance troops and turning colonists into husks), there's no compelling reason why you shouldn't.

 

2. The Illusive man didn't know exactly who would be best or could help...he was hoping Shep would be successful.

 

You missed the point. If you are given a suicide mission in which you will you be traveling into unknown space to fight a foe you know nothing about, the way you prepare for that is not to gather a bunch of crew members and sort out their personal issues. That is completely absurd. The number of situations in which such a crew would be actually useful is pretty slim, and as by your own admission TIM (and thus Shepard) knew nothing about what was waiting for them, why the hell would you spend the entire game in preparations that have almost no chance of being remotely useful?

 

What good would all those crew members have been if Shepard had gone through the relay and been met with a collector fleet instead of a collector ship? Or if the collectors weren't so conveniently holed up in a base with a vulnerability for each specific crew member? Or if you hadn't so conveniently crash-landed on the base in position to infiltrate it in the way you did? Just about none at all. Hell, you didn't even know there would be a base there (of that sort, at any rate) at all!

 

3. It's all about how focused and concentrated on the mission you are. If poor old Tali is thinking about what's happened to her father and why she's going to be exiled or punished by the fleet, she sure isn't thinking as strongly on the mission. For example, kill your mother and see if you are able to think as focused or well on work the next day.

 

I could buy this if it were done in any half-sane way. My problem here is not with the concept, it's with the implementation. Sure, loyalty and focus are important for a team to get a mission done, but if you're going to go that route how about having the manner in which the loyalty mechanic works make at least a modicum of goddamn sense? There is no logical connection between the loyalty of a crew member and whether or not rocks will fall on him. There is no logical connection between the loyalty of your fire-team leader and whether or not the door jams and forces your tech expert to get out and push (thus taking a rocket to the face). The way in which your teammates fail if they're unloyal simply makes no sense, at all. It's piss-poor implementation, and that's why it feels like a last-minute clooge rather than a well thought-out plot element..

 

4. Who else is going to get information? You're on a race to beat others to the info already...what are you going to do...go ahead and ask the Turians to get the information for you. Yeah...that's going to work out great! NOT! He goes in because that's how he's going to get any information anyways...since the only person that really has given him ANYTHING recently actually IS TIM (refer to #1) everyone else either is glad he's dead, ignores that he's alive, or has granted him a license to do something but no other help (such as the council in certain situations...but they still will disavow you if your actions come to light...great help they are!).

 

Send a probe, send a strike team that doesn't involve the guy who is so important that you needed to bring him back from the dead, to something rather than blindly rushing in with faith that it'll all work out in the end. These are the rudiments of strategy here, it'd be nice if the characters in the Mass Effect universe didn't all appear to be gigantic ****ing morons.

 

The very reason the council will not listen to Shepard is because they do not believe the reapers exist. Shepard could fix this, easily, if he were to show them the giant reaper corpse floating in explored space. Furthermore, Shepard would not even be in this position (where neither the Systems Alliance nor the Council will help him) if he weren't working for the gigantic **** running a terrorist organization whom he has no legitimate reason to trust. And what of TIM, while we're at that? Why would he not show the reaper to the council if he were truly worried about saving the galaxy? And if he's not, where is Shepard in all this, to call him out on that? Shouldn't it become bleedingly obvious at that point that either TIM shows the reaper corpse to the council and wins over the support of everyone, or he's secretly working towards some other goal and Shepard should have no business working with him? The characters are so ****ing blind in this situation that it hurts.

 

5. Apparantly they don't need every human out there...just a lot of them...and seeing that the ONLY response thus far has been TIM and you...I'd say apparantly they're being extremely effective at it. As for your frigate...go in without the upgrades...and you have a really beat up team maybe toast...

 

They already did in your first frigate. Plus you are underestimating Joker's piloting skills...first time he just was unprepared and surprised...

 

 

And didn't they have more than one ship...at least two? Or something? Even with one though...seems like they had it pretty much under control...seeing as no one is really after them yet anyways....until Shep shows up.

 

They had a grand total of one cruiser (it is identified as the same ship every time you see it) and one pack of floating eyeballs. That's it. Joker is a good pilot, sure, but do you really think that, given even the unupgraded Normandy SR-2 can take out the Collectors' cruiser, it would have any chance against an actual fleet, or even just against a reasonably built combat ship? The Normandy is a recon vessel, not a battleship. The Collectors had no chance at all of penetrating into even moderately-defended space with that paltry outfit - they'd probably have trouble dealing with the routine patrolls.

 

Furthermore, they could not complete their reaper without attacking earth (this is outright stated when you board the ship), or at least going for some core worlds. This is an impossibility. The collectors are a nonissue. And you've completely ignored the fact that even if they defied all logic and somehow managed to abduct earth and finish their human reaper, it really wouldn't be much good in bringing the rest of the reapers into the galaxy.

[greylord]

At first I thought it was pretty bizarre to get a ship and missions from Cerberus, but then I spent the entire game undermining The Illusive Man's authority and not trusting them in anything I did. I had multiple conversations with folks about how I didn't trust TIM and was just using their ship because it was my only option.

 

You might be overthinking things, Oblarg.

 

Overthinking things? If this is past the depth of thought that should go into writing an RPG plot, then why bother hiring writers at all? If the Big Bad of your game have a plan which, after a cursory glance, obviously cannot work, then your game has a big problem. They could at the very least lampshade the problems if they're too incompetent to write something that doesn't have them. This is a game which advertises itself based on the strength of its narrative. It's pretty shameful that the narrative doesn't stand up to even slight scrutiny. I find it very hard to stay immersed in a game in which pretty much every aspect of the plot invokes Contrived Plot-Mandated Coincidences to not fall apart.

 

1. Who just ressurrected Shepard...OH! That's right...TIM. If TIM didn't implant some sort of suggestion into Shepard to aid in the first place, beyond the fact that Shep was dead and owes a tremendous debt, since NO ONE ELSE raised Shep...sure...you got a point. I'd say seeing not only has TIM raised Shep and pointedly stated what his intention was, as well as Shep having the entire idea to save humanity as his background, hence it's at least in Sheps interest to investigate what TIM is stating...it makes sense. Now, if you say ME1 made absolutely NO sense and the plot hole was that Shep shouldn't care at all about the galaxy, humanity, or anything else...then of course this is a plot hole, since Shep could just walk away from everything and anything and not give a dang. He had a bigger chance to do this in the first one since even the council was against him much of the time, much less the rest of the galaxy. Of course then you wouldn't have a game in the first place.

 

TIM explicitly states that he has done nothing other than bring Shepard back exactly as he was. No loyalty programming, no failsafe, nothing. There is no physical limitation stopping you from saying "**** you, I'm leaving," and, in fact, given how awful Cerberus is (especially in the first game, what with setting Thresher Maws on alliance troops and turning colonists into husks), there's no compelling reason why you shouldn't.

 

2. The Illusive man didn't know exactly who would be best or could help...he was hoping Shep would be successful.

 

You missed the point. If you are given a suicide mission in which you will you be traveling into unknown space to fight a foe you know nothing about, the way you prepare for that is not to gather a bunch of crew members and sort out their personal issues. That is completely absurd. The number of situations in which such a crew would be actually useful is pretty slim, and as by your own admission TIM (and thus Shepard) knew nothing about what was waiting for them, why the hell would you spend the entire game in preparations that have almost no chance of being remotely useful?

 

What good would all those crew members have been if Shepard had gone through the relay and been met with a collector fleet instead of a collector ship? Or if the collectors weren't so conveniently holed up in a base with a vulnerability for each specific crew member? Or if you hadn't so conveniently crash-landed on the base in position to infiltrate it in the way you did? Just about none at all. Hell, you didn't even know there would be a base there (of that sort, at any rate) at all!

 

3. It's all about how focused and concentrated on the mission you are. If poor old Tali is thinking about what's happened to her father and why she's going to be exiled or punished by the fleet, she sure isn't thinking as strongly on the mission. For example, kill your mother and see if you are able to think as focused or well on work the next day.

 

I could buy this if it were done in any half-sane way. My problem here is not with the concept, it's with the implementation. Sure, loyalty and focus are important for a team to get a mission done, but if you're going to go that route how about having the manner in which the loyalty mechanic works make at least a modicum of goddamn sense? There is no logical connection between the loyalty of a crew member and whether or not rocks will fall on him. There is no logical connection between the loyalty of your fire-team leader and whether or not the door jams and forces your tech expert to get out and push (thus taking a rocket to the face). The way in which your teammates fail if they're unloyal simply makes no sense, at all. It's piss-poor implementation, and that's why it feels like a last-minute clooge rather than a well thought-out plot element..

 

4. Who else is going to get information? You're on a race to beat others to the info already...what are you going to do...go ahead and ask the Turians to get the information for you. Yeah...that's going to work out great! NOT! He goes in because that's how he's going to get any information anyways...since the only person that really has given him ANYTHING recently actually IS TIM (refer to #1) everyone else either is glad he's dead, ignores that he's alive, or has granted him a license to do something but no other help (such as the council in certain situations...but they still will disavow you if your actions come to light...great help they are!).

 

Send a probe, send a strike team that doesn't involve the guy who is so important that you needed to bring him back from the dead, to something rather than blindly rushing in with faith that it'll all work out in the end. These are the rudiments of strategy here, it'd be nice if the characters in the Mass Effect universe didn't all appear to be gigantic ****ing morons.

 

The very reason the council will not listen to Shepard is because they do not believe the reapers exist. Shepard could fix this, easily, if he were to show them the giant reaper corpse floating in explored space. Furthermore, Shepard would not even be in this position (where neither the Systems Alliance nor the Council will help him) if he weren't working for the gigantic **** running a terrorist organization whom he has no legitimate reason to trust. And what of TIM, while we're at that? Why would he not show the reaper to the council if he were truly worried about saving the galaxy? And if he's not, where is Shepard in all this, to call him out on that? Shouldn't it become bleedingly obvious at that point that either TIM shows the reaper corpse to the council and wins over the support of everyone, or he's secretly working towards some other goal and Shepard should have no business working with him? The characters are so ****ing blind in this situation that it hurts.

 

5. Apparantly they don't need every human out there...just a lot of them...and seeing that the ONLY response thus far has been TIM and you...I'd say apparantly they're being extremely effective at it. As for your frigate...go in without the upgrades...and you have a really beat up team maybe toast...

 

They already did in your first frigate. Plus you are underestimating Joker's piloting skills...first time he just was unprepared and surprised...

 

 

And didn't they have more than one ship...at least two? Or something? Even with one though...seems like they had it pretty much under control...seeing as no one is really after them yet anyways....until Shep shows up.

 

They had a grand total of one cruiser (it is identified as the same ship every time you see it) and one pack of floating eyeballs. That's it. Joker is a good pilot, sure, but do you really think that, given even the unupgraded Normandy SR-2 can take out the Collectors' cruiser, it would have any chance against an actual fleet, or even just against a reasonably built combat ship? The Normandy is a recon vessel, not a battleship. The Collectors had no chance at all of penetrating into even moderately-defended space with that paltry outfit - they'd probably have trouble dealing with the routine patrolls.

 

Furthermore, they could not complete their reaper without attacking earth (this is outright stated when you board the ship), or at least going for some core worlds. This is an impossibility. The collectors are a nonissue. And you've completely ignored the fact that even if they defied all logic and somehow managed to abduct earth and finish their human reaper, it really wouldn't be much good in bringing the rest of the reapers into the galaxy.

 

Besides most of your post is...BLAH...BLAH..BLAH..BLAH...I don't like listening to a dang thing...which explains why the plot doesn't make any sense to you (I suppose most plots don't make sense to you now that you've made that obvious)...

 

Shep saved the entire council and basically the galaxy in the past 3 years. You'd think the least they'd do is pay attention this time...they don't. It wouldn't matter if he brought an entire fleet of these things...they wouldn't listen until they attacked the citadel or some other absurd thing they couldn't ignore. The ONLY person who's giving him help is TIM.

 

Given your penchant to ignore help...and rush off on suicide missions giving up before you've even begun by not even bothering to up your chances by finding effective people...glad shep was the hero and not you...the galaxy would have been doomed the second you went up before the council and they told you not to worry and everything was okay in ME1...the story wouldn't have even started!!!!

 

AKA...not buying your ideas of plot holes...you have MORE HOLES in your "plot holes" then there are plot holes in the entirety of the ME series thus far!!!

[Oblarg]

Besides most of your post is...BLAH...BLAH..BLAH..BLAH...I don't like listening to a dang thing...which explains why the plot doesn't make any sense to you (I suppose most plots don't make sense to you now that you've made that obvious)...

 

Nice argument. Very well thought-out. Would read again.

[Malcador]

Have to accept some levels of plot-induced stupidity. I particularly liked Cerberus putting their logo on the hull of the Normandy.

[Oblarg]

Have to accept some levels of plot-induced stupidity. I particularly liked Cerberus putting their logo on the hull of the Normandy.

 

I mean, stuff like that doesn't bother me so much. Sure, it makes no sense, but it's not as overtly immersion-breaking as the big baddies who everyone is afraid of planning to abduct everyone on earth with a single cruiser that can be destroyed by a frigate that isn't even designed for combat.

 

I mean, everyone already knew you were working for Cerberus (by virtue of that, in the future, information travels instantly to everyone), so while advertising that fact on your ship isn't wise, it's not going to really change all that much. The main problem is that you're working for cerberus in the first please.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Oblarg

[Tale]

I was just glad ME2 focused less on being a Spectre. The entire concept is too stupid to justify. So glossing over it was one of the big improvements of ME2 in my mind.

[greylord]

Have to accept some levels of plot-induced stupidity. I particularly liked Cerberus putting their logo on the hull of the Normandy.

 

I mean, stuff like that doesn't bother me so much. Sure, it makes no sense, but it's not as overtly immersion-breaking as the big baddies who everyone is afraid of planning to abduct everyone on earth with a single cruiser that can be destroyed by a frigate that isn't even designed for combat.

 

I mean, everyone already knew you were working for Cerberus (by virtue of that, in the future, information travels instantly to everyone), so while advertising that fact on your ship isn't wise, it's not going to really change all that much. The main problem is that you're working for cerberus in the first please.

 

[sarcasm]

 

Of course it isn't designed for combat, you've only reinforced it with combat armor which is better and more effective then any ship out there, equipped it with guns that are bigger and better then anything out there...that you have one of the best pilots and the ONLY pilot to ever blow away a reaper...no way it could actually ever go into combat....

 

[/sarcasm]

 

You see, the fact that you don't even pay attention to what happens in the game sort of blows the entire plot hole idea that you support to smithereens.

 

[PS: If you hadn't guessed, yes I'm a rabid ME fanboi...as they would call it. However, give me an actual plot hole that isn't simply someone whining because they didn't get to save their favorite character or some other ridiculous reason...and I might actually see your point. ME and ME2 have plot holes...so do 99% of the video game plots out there...but you at least have to GIVE one out that may be valid rather than absurd to have me NOT laugh at the supposed "plot holes" that are put out].

[Malcador]

Normandy wasn't meant to be a line ship, I believe is what he means by designed for combat. Supposed to be a stealthy, hit and run type ship, from what I recall, rather than something meant to slug it out.

[Raithe]

The original Normandy was purely a stealth ship. Meant for recon purposes, and to get a small squad in undetected.

 

The Normandy mark 2 was about twice the size, so I'm guessing while it was still built for some stealth, it was going to have a lot more actual combat utility. Throw in the assorted upgrades you pick up to push the envelope..

[Malcador]

Ahh ok, my mistake.

[Zoraptor]

..list

 

Only one of those (working with Cerberus) is a genuine plothole, the rest is just stuff you didn't like. That's just the direction they chose to take, much as Obsidian developed K2 around having to have Kreia until the plot demanded she go, even if you didn't trust her. Your only knowledge that Kreia is no longer a sith comes from Kreia herself, your only knowledge that TIM has humanity's best interests at heart comes from him etc. I'm no fan of how they chose to accomplish their plot as it is at best clunky, but then again lots of game plots have decidedly clunky aspects precisely because without them the story would not exist. It is more clunky than K2 because it is a direct sequel using Shephard, but I think I can safely say that everyone has seen people who absolutely loathe the idea that Kreia cannot be spaced in K2 as soon as you leave Peragus- not all called Volourn, either- and that that complaint is fundamentally the same as that applied to working for Cerberus; that it's a plot contrivance in order to tell the story.

 

My big list of criticisms for ME2 would be: Cerberus (plothole), too many loyalty missions (personal preference), gob smackingly awful final boss (fundamental and absolute irrefutable truth), gameplay which was too frequently overly popamole (personal preference).

[Nonek]

I will say this, the entire Collector plot will be far more viable if earth is lost in the third game. Those colonies and settlers Shep saved will be the future of mankind, doubt Bioware will follow that path however, it's a little bold. Can't see how the population of earth will resist the reapers psychic death rays, seems a much more effective weapon than the big dakka.